About the lack of logic in gender movement on Page's example

submitted by MezozoicGay from self.GenderCritical

In comments to Ellen Page transition letter, I saw a lot of people saying: "He is trans from a moment he said he is trans, because people are whatever they say they are".

And then same people commenting about wikipedia and her role in Juno of pregnant teen: "Page was always a man, so it was man who played a woman, not first time in movies man is playing woman".

Why they can't realize they are contradicting themselves? If people are what they say they are, then when Page played in Juno, she was saying she is a woman, so she was a woman. And that now she is saying she is a man means she is man now. So either she is not what she said she is back then (or now), or they must be saying that "she played a role of pregnant girl" and not "he". And going from other side, "He always was man" will mean that "she is what she say she is" again not working, because she said she was a woman before, so she could not be trans or man before, as she is what she said she is and she said she is a woman, not a man.

And if sex does not exist, then transition from what to what exactly? How anyone can be trans, if sex is just a social construct?

Is it specially so confusing, so casual people will just get lost and just believe what is said by gender ideologists to them?

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[–]artetolife 46 insightful - 2 fun46 insightful - 1 fun47 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

afaik she hasn't even claimed to be a man, she is now "he/they" which I translate as "not woman".

[–]MezozoicGay[S] 32 insightful - 4 fun32 insightful - 3 fun33 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, as someone noted "I am tired of all this sexism, I want to be anything, but woman".

You can change Ellen Page to any other transman, nothing will really change in equasion in the post.

[–]Baileyscheesecakes 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't get how someone can be both "he" and "they." But then, that's looking for logic where there may not be any.

[–]Shesstealthy 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I believe the old term for it was kinda butch lesbian.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I mean we still exist and the whole point to me about being butch is that I am a woman, just an unfeminine one in some ways and honestly some people might confuse me for a man at a distance and leave my partner and I alone.

I just think in the case of these gender PR lost ones- it’s insecurity from both not wanting to be perceived as female, but also wanting to be acknowledged as female when its beneficial to them/knowing the truth but not wanting to admit it. I see it on twitter profiles a lot, “wah I’m a nonbinary artist can I be featured in women artist wednesday features I’m a nonbinary woman! She/they/he/zem/zir/courgette” So - ok you’re not a woman but you are a woman? Just for the feature? Hmm

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Those pronouns irritate me for purely linguistic reasons. They are both subject pronouns. When do I use 'he' and when do I use 'they'?

Can my pronouns be he / she?

[–]artetolife 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Plenty of "genderfluid" people claim he/she or he/she/they. No idea how you're meant to keep up with which one they feel like that day.

[–]Finnegan7921 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

they try to have it both ways. They want people to think it isn't a choice, social fad, or personal fetish. The logical knots they twist themselves into are hilarious.

[–]Cass 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"Page was always a man, so it was man who played a woman, not first time in movies man is playing woman".

That is trying to pull an "We have always been at war with Eastasia."

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

ಠ_ಠ

[–]lavender_menace 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Never heard that one either.

[–]blackrainbow 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I read on irreversible damage that in the USA a human characteristic must be immutable in order to be included in human rights or something like that, that's why they're saying that (but they are also copying homosexuality).

[–]yousaythosethings 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not that it must be immutable but rather that people tend to only want to provide anti-discrimination/human rights protections for things that people see as immutable (e.g., sex, race), on the one hand, and either innate and not chosen (e.g., sexual orientation) or deeply personal and central to one’s being (e.g., religion, political opinion), on the other hand.

That’s why “Born This Way” was such a powerful slogan. But we don’t need to have been born this way. It’s at least set very early in life, appears immutable, and is very central to our being. And being homosexual and bisexual operates and manifests very differently from sexual paraphilia.

We LGB people who migrated over from reddit after the banning of our sex-defined spaces have a wide range of views, political beliefs, and life experiences, and are pretty candid about how we have experienced the world as homosexual and bisexual people, and, as you would know, none of us ever “chose” to be this way. I’m honestly still often confused how I’m a lesbian. I was waiting for it to “make sense” and thought “why me?” and “how?” but regardless of how I have ever felt about my sexuality at different points in my life, I always just am. Even if I never told anyone and never dated anyone. And what makes me a lesbian is that this feels good and natural for me. When I tried to be in a relationship with a man, I even didn’t realize how exhausting it was on my mind, body, and spirit until I let myself leave. And how much I had to mute about myself to live that life. That wasn’t natural.

Anyway, I’m digressing, but I also want to point out that on the subject of innateness, the example of Laverne Cox. Laverne Cox has an identical twin brother. Both are sexually attracted to men, but only one of them was “born in the wrong body.” Makes you think. So same-sex attraction appears innate, but transsexuality clearly has social components, even the homosexual transsexual variety.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I read on irreversible damage that in the USA a human characteristic must be immutable in order to be included in human rights

That's a misapprehension. Not all characteristics covered by federal, state or local anti-discrimination laws in the US are immutable, meaning unchangeable over time. Disabilities can be acquired in life due to accidents, disease and disorders, disasters, war and assaults.

Lots of people who use wheelchairs, walkers and are legally blind were not born that way. In fact, the majority of people in the US who are disabled seem to fit that category, although the more we learn about genetics it might be that people who develop various disabilities over the course of life due to disease, disorders or other medical conditions have a genetic predisposition to them.

Similarly, pregnancy is temporary, as is maternity in the way it's defined in law - yet protections are in place prohibiting discrimination on these grounds in certain settings.

Also, over the course of history some medical conditions that qualify as disabling per the law and once seemed unchangeable have become manageable or even curable, the way it's happened with cancers and HIV that once were fatal. Many people with severe motor and speech disabilities from stroke that left them helpless initially can eventually recover from them to a greater or lesser extent (as the Patricia Neal case showed). Some forms of once disabling and fatal genetic primary immune deficiency such as SCID (severe combined immune deficiency, or what used to be known as "bubble boy disease") that kids are born with are curable if bone marrow transplants are done before 24 months. Advances in smart prosthetics now means some people who've long been without limb function might be able to regain function.

Religious creed, also protected under US anti-discrimination statutes, is not immutable, either. Many people with deeply-held religious beliefs are converts; they were not born into their religion.

One of the most famous religious discrimination cases in the US was the landmark lawsuit of Muhammed Ali Cassius Clay against the US government (Cassius Clay vs. United States) over the Selective Service not granting Ail conscientious objector status based on his being a Muslim. Ali only became an adherent of Islam in adulthood; AFAIK, he was raised as a Christian. BTW, the US Supreme Court ruled in Ali's favor in that case.

In some jurisdictions in the US - such as CT, CA, NYC - legal protections are already in place for "gender identity" and "gender expression" - neither of which, as we all know, are immutable. Obama during his second term reinterpreted US federal anti-discrimination law to give "gender identity" more status than biological sex in determining eligibility for participation in female school sports, and which toilets and locker rooms students use - as well as for placement in federally-funded shelters. States like CT and CA have passed laws saying convicted criminals must be placed in prison based on their "gender identity," not their sex. In NYC, it's now a civil offense with a fine of up to $250K for a landlord or business operator to "misgender" someone who is trans, enby, whatever.

[–]lefterfield 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It certainly helps... and it occurs to me that in the process they're saying that sex is not an immutable characteristic. But who cares about women's rights these days?

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When you adopt a gender identity you have to rewrite your past. It's part of why they hate it when you mention that male/female socialization exists, why they can't stand hearing "deadnames," why they insist on not saying anything that reminds trans people that they are not what they wish they were born as. Instead of facing reality they want to ignore it for a version that makes them feel better. It's very sad.

[–]LasagnaRossa 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You're trying to apply logic where there isn't any.

[–]Chronicity 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If we made a list of internal contradictions plaguing this ideology, it would be as long as a piece of paper folded 42 times.

But yes, this one is up near the top of the list.

[–]Sistersovermisters 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This lack of logic about sex and social constructs peaks me every time, I swear.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Woke queen Titania McGrath's tweet about Page https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1334126665086201857

[–]questioningtw 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have been seeing lots of trans people say Juno is about a pregnant trans boy and Kitty Pryde is now trans! Or her characters in Whiplash and Inception are trans! They also yell at lesbians and other gnc women that are disappointed and say wee are being disrespectful, when the reality is they are just happy that another woman is saying she is trans.

[–]Greykittymomma 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

So Page was a trans man when she raped that guy in Super? Wow, how insensitive of her to say trans men are rapists!!

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I never saw that movie...but UGH!

I guess she was a man infiltrating a woman's sport in Whiplash!

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The inconsistencies come from the fact that they want us to look at 'trans' the same way we look at 'gay'. Through that lens it makes sense. "Elliott" was always a man, just in the closet until "he" was safe enough or had the courage to come out.

The problem with that is it's a direct contradiction to objective reality, and they know that. Even (most) homophobes understand that same sex attraction is real, they just see it as a deviance that needs to be prayed or therapied away.

That's why they say both "elliott was always a man" and "elliott is a man from the moment he says so." They want people to see Ellen's coming out the same way as a homosexual person's coming out, so they say "elliott has always been a man." But they know they can't magically erase the 30+ years Ellen has "presented as a woman" or the fact that she's obviously female. So they say "from this point forward elliott is a man."

[–]YoungHustle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My favorite bullshit take so far, including the answers that follow:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/k4yw5j/actor_elliot_page_announced_that_he_is/gec2rgb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3

[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't know r/subredditdrama was so full of fucking morons.