all 57 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Kai, when TRAs bring up DSDs/VSCs, I think it's best just to say that people with these very rare, distinct medical conditions have repeatedly asked that their often traumatic medical histories not be brought into the convo about transgenderism, coz DSDs have nothing to do with transgenderism.

DSDs are real, tangible physical conditions that can be medically and scientifically verified and are based on specific, identifiable processes and mechanisms going awry in the human body.

Trans is a psychological state that cannot be verified medically or scientifically and which is based entirely on sexist stereotypes, fantasies, desires, wishful thinking, covetousness, magical thinking, narcissism, emotional immaturity, irrationality, gaslighting, authoritarianism, disassociation and so on - and it's also based on a total denial of the material reality of the human body and reproductive biology.

But if you're going to discuss DSDs, please don't use the term "hermaphrodite," which long has been considered a slur. And best to avoid "intersex" as well.

As to your questions about whether transgenderism "exists" and is "real," I'm not sure what you mean. It's as real as Scientology, Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Shintoism and all other religious belief systems based on faith and fantastic stories.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yeah and that's what I did initially when he brought up intersex people to which I said that they don't disprove biological sex class and then he hits me with CAIS and honestly I genuinely never heard of that one so it did cause me to hiccup when thrown it, especially when I read the deifnition of it. But ultimately you are right that aside from it being an extremely rare genetic condition, these people don't want to be used as pawns for the transgender argument.

But if you're going to discuss DSDs, please don't use the term "hermaphrodite," which long has been considered a slur. And best to avoid "intersex" as well.

Oh my bad on this. Is there a better word to describe these kinds of people then? I remember when I was a kid people used to conflate "Hermaphrodite" and "Intersex" as one in the same and I believed that for awhile until I read up on Intersex and learned that conflation was false but I hadn't come across a term that I'm aware of that is more socially acceptable to call these people.

As to your questions about whether transgenderism "exists" and is "real," I'm not sure what you mean. It's a real as Scientology and all other religious belief system based on faith and fantastic stories.

Oh all I meant was whether this genetic condition did have some validity to the whole trans argument because yesterday was the first time I had ever heard of "CAIS" and I couldn't find much people talking about it in gender critical (I wanted to avoid Reddit because of the bias I know it would have since it's overrun with TRAs).

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Is there a better word to describe these kinds of people then? I remember when I was a kid people used to conflate "Hermaphrodite" and "Intersex" as one in the same and I believed that for awhile until I read up on Intersex and learned that conflation was false but I hadn't come across a term that I'm aware of that is more socially acceptable to call these people.

The word hermaphrodite comes from Greek mythology, not science or medicine. And like most of the stories from Greek mythology, the tale of Hermaphroditus is pretty twisted.

In 2005, medical professionals decided to retire the term "pseudohermaphrodite" and "pseudohermaphroditism." Those terms - not just plain hermaphrodite & hermaphroditism - were the ones previously used by some in medical and scientific fields. The "pseudo" prefix shows that in medicine it's long been known that there is no such thing as actual hermaphroditism in humans.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082839/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6682611/

In answer to your questions about whether there's "a better word (or term) to call these people," I suggest calling them people. People with medical conditions known as disorders or differences of sex development (DSDs) that cause them to have variations in sex characteristics (VSCs) that are anomalous.

The known DSDs are 41 (or so) very distinct medical conditions that vary so markedly from one another that they shouldn't all be lumped together in the same category and regarded as if they and those with these conditions are one and the same - or that they even have that much in common with one another. Even amongst persons with the same exact DSD, there's often a huge range in how the condition presents and manifests from one individual to the next.

Individuals with CAIS - complete androgen sensitivity - have XY sex chromosomes and testes (usually internal) that produce normal amounts of testosterone - and they also are capable of converting T to its more potent form DHT. But as they don't have any functioning androgen receptors, their bodies do not and cannot react to the testosterone they produce as XY people typically do. As a result, they end up developing observable characteristics - external genitalia - that appear female, aka a "female phenotype," as well as the lower portion of a vagina, but not a full vagina or the other internal organs typical of the female reproductive tract.

Due to an enzyme known as aromatase, some androgens are converted into estrogen in everyone; in persons with CAIS, this happens with all androgens. As a result, in puberty, individuals with CAIS will have female levels of estrogen, which cause them to develop breasts and other visible aspects of a female adolescent body such as general body shape. However, since they have testes and lack ovaries, a uterus and Fallopian tubes, they will not reach menarche or become fertile. It's because they never get their periods in/after puberty that most individuals with CAIS are finally medically evaluated in/after adolescence and their particular DSD gets diagnosed.

https://youtu.be/wik6uRl6Wjo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

https://www.cancertherapyadvisor.com/home/decision-support-in-medicine/labmed/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome-ais/

all I meant was whether this genetic condition did have some validity to the whole trans argument because yesterday was the first time I had ever heard of "CAIS" and I couldn't find much people talking about it in gender critical

I honestly have no idea what you mean by "the whole trans argument." But generally speaking, the best way to get answers is to pose questions using precise language rather than resorting to shorthand and vague generalities.

One of the reasons people in gender critical don't talk much about CAIS is coz it's a medical condition that is immaterial to the issues at hand. And coz most of us are aware that individuals with CAIS have a hard enough time as it is. However, I've spoken in some detail on this sub about specific DSDs that persons with XY sex chromosomes have - such as 5-ARD, Klinefelter's, CAIS and PAIS - and some people think I'm a hateful and cruel asshole as a result.

So instead of discussing CAIS any further, let's draw an analogy by using another extremely rare inborn condition that affects me personally. I happen to have a form of primary immune deficiency that causes me to be unable to make antibodies to most pathogens. As as result, vaccines don't work on me. And once I have a virus, bacterial, fungal or prion infection, I don't build cellular memory of it or immunity to it.

But the fact that I and some other people on earth have very rare defects of immune function does not mean that we can't make general statements about the human immune system and how it works in 99.99% of the population. People with inborn immune defects aren't proof that the human immune system doesn't exist or is too complex to be understood. And my particular immune defect doesn't mean vaccines are useless; it just means they don't work for me and a few other people. The various inborn defects of human immune function that a small number of people have only go to show that sometimes nature makes mistakes, and some people have rare medical conditions that make us outliers and set us apart from the norm. Which is also the case for the teensy tiny fraction of the population with CAIS and other DSDs.

BTW, there's some info on CAIS - and some links to papers I posted about it - on this thread on this sub from 7 days ago you might find helpful:

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/731o/the_boy_who_always_knew_he_was_a_girl_and_is_now/

Some more information on individual cases, some of which deal with "gender identity": https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20358272/

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Right, I'm a little more informed on CAIS after someone linked me a video to an explanation of what it is as well as some of the other DSD genetic conditions that I did know a little about but still learned some new things I didn't know. And you're right that even with these conditions in mind, it's very rare and that is something I did try to explain to the TRA and how I think that most Trans-identified people do not have conditions like CAIS.

On the individual case of Gender Identity, I mean sure technically these people could be the gray area but it seems like most people with CAIS are women and girls because they are socialized as such and more or less have the same biological outer appearance of a female and the internal testes are practically useless anyway. And I'll just take the advice and call these people "People with very rare sex conditions" . I'm not trying to offend people at the end of the day and I know that DSDs are very sensitive subjects but it's also telling how even most of them are tired of TRAs using them to justify their ideology of Transgenderism.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

it seems like most people with CAIS are women and girls because they are socialized as such and more or less have the same biological outer appearance of a female and the internal testes are practically useless anyway.

Kai, I know you don't mean to cause offense, but it's hurtful to say that the internal testes of persons with CAIS "are practically useless anyway." This is not so, and it reflects an attitude that is one of the reasons so many people with CAIS have had their internal testes removed, often to find it has deleterious effects on their physical and mental wellbeing.

The testes of persons with CAIS produce normal amounts of testosterone that via the enzyme aromatase get converted to estrogen. Testosterone and estrogen play important, indeed essential, roles in human health, affecting everything from secondary sex characteristics to bone density to libido to mood to cognitive function/dementia risk to energy levels to cardiovascular status to ability to build and maintain muscle to body weight and BMI - and much more. Without their internal testes, persons with CAIS would never have developed a female appearing phenotype in the first place.

I think if someone told you your gonads were "essentially useless" you might take offense - and with good reason, too.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh wait, I thought the reason why they removed the internal testes was because they would develop health complications as they got older? Either way I take back that comment then Again I know this is a very sensitive subject and it further just aggravates me when Trans-identified people use people with DSDs as a "Gotcha" for the legitimacy that Transgenderism is a real thing.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The one main reason that is usually cited for recommending that the internal testes be removed is that there's a risk of the testes becoming cancerous starting in early adulthood. However, it appears that this risk may have been overstated: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28351649/

Also, whereas in the past just the word "cancer" was enough to scared the hell out of people coz it raised the specter of certain death, nowadays there is a more sophisticated understanding both amongst medical practitioners and the public that not all cancers are the same. Re testicular cancer in CAIS specifically:

The diagnosis (of CAIS) is based on the presence of female external genitalia in a 46, XY human individual, with normally developed but undescended testes and complete unresponsiveness of target tissues to androgens... this condition is associated with an increased risk of testicular germ cell tumour (TGCT), although TGCT results less frequently than in other disorders of sex development (DSD). Furthermore, the majority of detected tumoral lesions are non-invasive and with a low probability of progression into aggressive forms.

The exact incidence of cancer in patients with CAIS is very difficult to estimate because of the frequent change in management of this disorder over the years, particularly regarding the correct time of gonadectomy. Data from the literature review report a general risk of approximately 5% in AIS disorder overall and a prevalence of <1% in CAIS. In addition, the risk of malignant progression is elevated only with increased age; indeed, it rarely occurs in prepubertal age (less than 1%), in contrast with other DSD, including PAIS. In the general population, GCNIS advances into invasive cancer in approximately 50% of cases over five years, while the majority of malignant lesions described in patients with CAIS after puberty were pre-GCNIS or GCNIS, with a low likelihood of becoming invasive. These data suggest that malignant progression from pre-GCNIS to invasive TCGT is very infrequent and probably takes place only in late adulthood. These findings validate the possibility of postponing a gonadectomy until after puberty. Even the occurrence of a bilateral inguinal hernia during childhood no longer represents an absolute indication for early gonadectomy.

Several studies have tried to identify [specific additional] factors associated with cancer development and progression

in persons with CAIS beyond just the the presence of CAIS itself. Also

There may be several reasons for a low trend of malignancy in retained gonads in patients with CAIS. First, in contrast with other disorders of sexual development with gonadal dysgenesis, testicular tissue is normally developed in CAIS. Second, the lack of signal coming from androgens may play a key role in modulating cellular development and differentiation. Finally, the high rate of germ cell apoptosis in CAIS reduces the possibility of malignant evolution. However, the residual paracrine actions of androgen in testicular tissue, also described in CAIS, could be a risk factor for cancer development, especially during and after puberty. Indeed, it could promote neoplastic progression of germ cells and explain the increased risk of developing malignancy in adulthood. On the other hand, some authors suggested the possible protective role of the residual androgen activity in cancer development, precisely because it allows the survival of the normal germ cell population overall.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6480640/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30970592/

Clearly, the situation re gonadal function and the routine removal of the entirely normal and normally-functioning gonads that persons with CAIS have for "prophylatic" reasons is much more complicated that it has been portrayed traditionally.

But another reason for recommending that the testes be removed appears to be prejudice within the medical community owing to such beliefs and unexamined assumptions as: the internal testes of persons with CAIS do more physical harm than good; having gonads of "the wrong" sex is likely to cause psychological problems for all patients; and taking exogenous hormones manufactured by Big Pharma is just as good - or better - than having hormones that naturally come from one's own gonads and are converted via aromatase.

Yet another reason might be the medical establishment's longterm affinity for aggressive surgical solutions to vexing medical problems; if certain organs are likely to cause problems down the line, the reasoning has been, why not just yank the pesky buggers out once and for all? Giving extra "credence" to this approach have been aforementioned assumptions that certain organs are "useless," do more harm than good or have outlived their purpose.

The sex and sexism of many the physicians who treat people with CAIS probably have come into play as well: after all, most of these doctors are men, and knowing how hung up on dicks and balls men are, it's conceivable that some/many men who practice medicine might have a real problem with the idea that patients they perceive as girls and women have internal testes.

Whilst removing the internal testes does indeed totally remove the risk of the specific kind of cancer they might develop - TGCT aka gonadal germ cell cancer - the experience of persons with CAIS who've had their testes removed also show that there also are, or can be, health and psychological downsides to removal that previously had not been acknowledged.

An international survey of 22 medical centers from 16 countries published in 2018 showed that gonadectomy by or in early adulthood was routinely recommended by 67% of the centers, but that 11.4% of patients with CAIS refused gonadectomy. Some patients and medical specialists suggest that a better, more evidence-based approach would be to wait and see whilst conducting rigorous regular cancer screening of the gonads rather than just removing them outright. With todays' diagnostic techniques and ability to detect genetic and other factors that might help trigger development - and/or those that might protect against development - of specific cancers within specific populations and individuals, routine gonadectomies might not be the only or best way to protect the longterm health of persons with CAIS.

https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/493645

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is (as usual from you) very well written and thorough. I really like your analogy to the immune system. And also I'm sorry you're saddled with a malfunctioning one.

[–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

It does not prove anything.

Like - even if there is "3rd sex", how that makes it possible to CHANGE sex? It doesn't. So irrelevant.

Then - why even bring poor people to the discussion, who already have issues, and then dehumanize them by calling "less women" or "hybrids" or anything else. I think one transgender organisation even called women with CAIS as "mutants".

And last part - definition of sex is "organism that is developed to support one type of gamete". So by this CAIS will mean they are female, as their body is female on everything, just lacking uterus and ovaries, and have underdeveloped testes, which are completely useless as body is ignoring testosterone anyways. Technically with uterus transplant in IVF they may get pregnant. So - females, women.

And yeah, lets not forget that it is 0.005% of women if not less. There more transgender people than all CAIS women were in history. So it proves absolutely nothing. Intersex organisations are trying so hard that TRA stop using them as fodder to their theory.

This channel may help: https://www.youtube.com/c/ParadoxInstitute/videos

And this woman is with rarest condition, mosaic XY+XX, victim of IGM, victim of "assigning on birth", was pushed into transitioning into a man to not be "less woman": https://twitter.com/AlexAlicit

She have good explanations, and you can ask her for details, if she is not yet bothered to fight with all those TRA, who are trying to use her in every single "gotcha", like she is not even a real human, ignoring her experience and feelings.

Previously there was amazing account IntersexFacts, but she was banned for "transphobia", because she said that sex is real and that intersex people are being hurt. Looks like Twitter doesn't care if anyone but men is hurt.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

And last part - definition of sex is "organism that is developed to support one type of gamete". So by this CAIS will mean they are female, as their body is female on everything, just lacking uterus and ovaries, and have underdeveloped testes, which are completely useless as body is ignoring testosterone anyways. Technically with uterus transplant in IVF they may get pregnant. So - females, women.

Violet, sorry to be a nitpicker, but I don't think it's true that any individuals with testes - internal or not - can be said to have developed to support the type of gamete that is female, meaning ova. These are XY people who originally were supposed to develop to have the potential capacity to produce sperm at some point in life, but whose sex development went awry in utero. As a result, they ended up unable to produce gametes at all.

From a strict biological perspective, this is not the same as female - and it sort of debases the meaning and importance of the female sex to suggest that XY persons with DSDs who can't produce any gametes = female. Though for all practical intents and purposes in everyday, ordinary life, the vast majority of people with CAIS are considered female by others and they see themselves as such - which biologists and many/most "GC" feminists including me have no problem with.

Similarly, I don't think it's accurate characterize the testes of people with CAIS as "completely useless." My understanding is that their testes produce normal male amounts of testosterone, but because people with CAIS lack any functional androgen receptors, and coz of the conversion of T into estrogen that the enzyme aromatase causes in all of us, their bodies essentially turn T into estrogen.

Whilst it's long been standard medical practice to recommend that individuals with CAIS get their testes removed coz of a putative increased cancer risk, there is evidence that actually removing them leads to negative effects. For some perhaps many, keeping your own natural gonads even if they are of the opposite sex to your phenotype is better than having no gonads at all and being entirely dependent on exogenous hormones manufactured by Big Pharma.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6480640/

Also, I might be wrong about this, but my understanding is that persons with CAIS are not eligible for uterine transplants, not even trials.

Some first-person accounts of individuals here:

http://aisdsd.org/who-we-are/member-stories/

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Unlike PAIS or 5ARD, women with CAIS have lungs, heart size, bone density, and even most of skeletal structure - same as any female without DSD, so they have no advantage in strenght or speed, so should be same as women without DSD in sports (they may even have disadvantages, as they will lack muscle memory). They even lack developed prostate and have it in same way as any other female do in majority of cases.

They do have clitoris, but in around 35-40% of cases it is underdeveloped. Around 30% of women with CAIS have "deep enough" vaginal space (I have no idea how to call it in English, sorry), while 70% have it too small to fit penis (or uterus) there. Most studies I know were connecting female sexual activity during ovulation with increased levels of androgens - and that could explain why women with CAIS are less sexually active even when they do not know about their own condition - they insensitive to androgens completely.

Also, I might be wrong about this, but my understanding is that persons with CAIS are not eligible for uterine transplants, not even trials.

Uterus transplants are rarely positive even in females without DSD, thought. I think there only 1/5 of cases are successful?

Theoretically ones without vaginal hypoplasia can support one, but body will try to reject it anyways, women with CAIS have part of brains that is responsible for hormonal control are developed to produce needed hormones, but body lacks organs to produce those hormones. So I am not sure if it will work fine. With transplanting ovaries, it can start working fine, but was it even done once at all? I mean I've read about it, but it was only one case from one clinic, who not provided full info, so impossible to know if it was for real or not.

However, we can put this part down, even if woman with CAIS can't get uterus transplant and gestate, the rest of the body is developed to support it, even if it fails on doing so.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

We weren't talking about sports, we were talking about the definition of biological sex - male and female - which in all plant and animals across the board is determined by whether a person, animal or plant has anatomy organized around the potential capacity to produce either ova or sperm at some point in life.

In humans and other species, gametes come from gonads, and female gonads are ovaries, male gametes are testes. The fact that someone has CAIS doesn't turn that person's testes into ovaries. Phenotypically, persons with CAIS appear female, and socially most are seen and treated as such. But from a strict biological point of view, they are male coz they have male gonads even though their male gonads can't make sperm.

As biologists define sex, the presence of organs like a uterus and clitoris is not key, coz a lot of sexually-reproducing animals do not gestate young within their bodies, nor have the females developed the capacity for sexual pleasure the way humans have. In birds, for example, eggs are fertilized inside the female's body, but then the female lays her eggs and they gestate and hatch outside the female body. Some other animals lay eggs first, and the male fertilizes them afterwards, outside the body. What's more, a lot of sexually-reproducing organisms are plants, not animals.

Sexual reproduction is actually very varied, but it always involves the merging of a female gamete with a male gamete. And again, male and female gametes come from male or female gonads. I don't think that it's correct to say someone with male sex chromosomes and male gonads is biologically female. Socially, they can be viewed as girls and women, but not biologically. But this is something perhaps it's best to just agree we disagree on and leave it at that.

Since you brought up sports, I don't think it's true, as you claim, that XY individuals

with CAIS have lungs, heart size, bone density, and even most of skeletal structure - same as any female without DSD, so they have no advantage in strenght or speed, so should be same as women without DSD in sports (they may even have disadvantages, as they will lack muscle memory).

Actually, we don't know this, coz very little research has been done either on the athletic performance of either normal XX female bodies or on the bodies of XY people with AIS.

However, it is well known that due to their XY chromosomes individuals with CAIS tend to be noticeably taller than XX women - and height is indeed an advantage in many competitive sports. Moreover, persons with CAIS, particularly those who still have their testes, actually appear to have differences in such factors as bone mineral density, metabolism, cardiovascular risk, BMI, etc that set them apart from both males and females with normal or typical development. Some of these differences might give them athletic advantages over XX competitors in sports, some might not. The full picture isn't clear.

Furthermore, it is clear that in elite-level female athletics, whose participants tend to be young or youngish, XY persons with CAIS are actually WAY over-represented, and they generally perform better than XX athletes - but for reasons that seem to have nothing to do with testosterone and have yet to be elucidated.

According to biologist Emma Hilton, who has studied this at some length,

The frequency of CAIS in the general population is 1 in 20,000. The frequency of CAIS in female athlete cohorts is 1 in 420. CAIS is nearly 50 times more prevalent in female athletes than in female couch potatoes. This is a massive overrepresentation.

CAIS females succeed as athletes way more often than non-CAIS females. How puzzling that the only thing the IOC asserts confers sporting advantage is functionally absent in these females with clear sporting advantage.

Whatever underpins CAIS female sporting advantage, it is independent of functional T.

https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1070097776665608193

Also, can you explain why persons with CAIS would "lack muscle memory" as you say?

Finally, I got the impression that at the end of your post you were saying that if person with CAIS got a uterus transplant - as well as the transplant of at least one ovary - they theoretically should be able to sustain a pregnancy coz their brains would cause them to produce all the hormones needed for pregnancy in just the right amount. And presumably their brains - or genetics - would arrange for them do a vast number of other things necessary to sustain a pregnancy as well, such as growing a placenta and developing the same kidney function as XX people have.

But what is known is that persons with CAIS do not have female hormone profiles, and when they get their testes removed and take female hormones they tend not to fare well if the hormones are dosed to give them levels that XX females typically have:

Interestingly, patients with CAIS seem to have a different hormonal status that does not follow a physiological male or female profile. In particular, postpubertal CAIS patients with intact gonads show increased levels of LH with normal levels of FSH and of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) for the female range; moreover, basal testosterone and oestradiol values, free androgen indices and androgen aromatization indices are in the normal male range. Increased levels of LH, despite testosterone levels, may be attributable to the role of androgen resistance in the normal negative feedback action carried out by androgens on the hypothalamus-hypophysis axis. Thus, Doenhert et al. (2015) suggested the use of a lower dose of HRT in patients with CAIS after gonadectomy, seeing that these patients follow neither a female nor male hormone pattern and that levels of oestrogen are normally below the female range before gonadectomy. This could partially explain the reported reduced wellbeing with doses of current classic HRT [meaning exogenous female sex hormones in doses to match the levels/range of these hormones normally found in XX individuals].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6480640/

Note that in the hormone profile there is no mention of HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - which is known as "the pregnancy hormone" coz of its key role especially in the first 11 weeks, nor of progesterone, another key female hormone that is essential to pregnancy and is highly elevated during pregnancy. The adrenal glands of both females and males can produce some progesterone, but they can't produce progesterone in the amounts needed to sustain a pregnancy - only ovaries can. But even ovaries can't produce HCG - only a placenta that a woman has begun growing at the start of pregnancy can.

There have been case reports of ovarian transplants/grafts from various medical centers, but only in XX women. And the ovarian tissue transplanted either were the women's own originally healthy ovaries that had been removed and frozen prior to cancer treatment - then put back in the body later on, or they came from the women's own sisters (identical twin sisters in the majority cases, genetically different sisters in a very small minority). Generally speaking, it appears that removing and freezing a woman's own ovaries, then putting them or parts of them back in her body later, is much more successful than transplanting ovaries or ovarian tissue from another woman.

I have not found any information on PubMed or Google Scholar showing that uterine or ovarian transplants have ever been tried in persons with CAIS. Only one report that at one medical center 10 individuals with CAIS applied for inclusion in a uterine transplant "project" - but what that project entailed and whether the CAIS applicants were accepted is not clear. I also haven't found any evidence to support your claim that

even if woman with CAIS can't get uterus transplant and gestate, the rest of her body is developed to support it, even if it fails on doing so.

Then again, perhaps I missed the evidence. If you could provide some links, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5375051/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685107/

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jog.12486

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

We weren't talking about sports, we were talking about the definition of biological sex - male and female - which in all plant and animals across the board is determined by whether a person, animal or plant has anatomy organized around the potential capacity to produce either ova or sperm at some point in life.

In humans and other species, gametes come from gonads, and female gonads are ovaries, male gametes are testes. The fact that someone has CAIS doesn't turn that person's testes into ovaries. Phenotypically, persons with CAIS appear female, and socially most are seen and treated as such. But from a strict biological point of view, they are male coz they have male gonads even though their male gonads can't make sperm.

Their bodies still developed to support ova, not sperm. They do have male gonads, but they lacking everything else to support sperm production. While everything else is similar to a body that is supposed to produce ova. They have female phenotype, female hormonal reaction and levels (as androgens are ignored by body and converted into estrogen), female body structure, only male they have are chromosomes and testes. Even medicine they are prescribed is similar to female one. Prescribing them same one as to males and putting them on male control can be deadly to them. I almost died from heart attack, as only doctor was there only had experience with male heart attacks - same will be with woman with CAIS if she will be marked as "male", she can die in this case. So they have 3 of 5 points being female (so 60%, majority), with body mostly responding as female body, so I see no reasoning saying that they are male - it can be harmful to their health. Much better for medical and cosial practices will call them females with CAIS. As it will make less mistakes to be made and will make less risk to their lives.

Plus lets not forget that some women with CAIS have their ovaries not completely destroyed by anti-müllerian hormone, but that is very rare.

taller

I am not sure about this, most I've seen were actually smaller women, as they are not that responsive to testosterone. Maybe it is because I am from country with very tall women (average 167-168 cm for all ages and 172 cm for 30 years old or younger). I am 158 cm and I never met woman my height or shorter (except my mother). So not sure if that is the case or not. Three I've met online were 162 cm and two 165 cm. One that I've met personally was 166 cm - same as my sister.

In general, it needs more research, but unlike TW or 5ARD/PAIS/etc, even if there will be some advantage, it will be too small comparing to other cases.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

They have female phenotype, female hormonal reaction and levels, female body structure, only male they have are chromosomes and testes.

The passages I quoted in my last post and the links I provided show that while the phenotype part of this statement is true, the rest isn't quite true. Re hormone reaction and levels:

Interestingly, patients with CAIS seem to have a different hormonal status that does not follow a physiological male or female profile. In particular, postpubertal CAIS patients with intact gonads show increased levels of LH with normal levels of FSH and of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) for the female range; moreover, basal testosterone and oestradiol values, free androgen indices and androgen aromatization indices are in the normal male range. Increased levels of LH, despite testosterone levels, may be attributable to the role of androgen resistance in the normal negative feedback action carried out by androgens on the hypothalamus-hypophysis axis. Thus, Doenhert et al. (2015) suggested the use of a lower dose of HRT in patients with CAIS after gonadectomy, seeing that these patients follow neither a female nor male hormone pattern and that levels of oestrogen are normally below the female range before gonadectomy. This could partially explain the reported reduced wellbeing with doses of current classic HRT [meaning exogenous female sex hormones in doses to match the levels/range of these hormones normally found in XX individuals].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6480640/

Even medicine they are prescribed is similar to female one. Prescribing them same one as to males and putting them on male control can be deadly to them.

Neither I nor anyone else here ever suggested that for persons with CAIS male prescribing protocols/doses should be used, or that males should be regarded as their control group or comparators for medical purposes. I think you are reading things into what I've written that I have not said and would not say.

As the passage quoted above shows, persons with CAIS must be seen as persons with CAIS, a group with some unique characteristics. Neither the female nor male prescribing and treatment protocols might be suitable for them.

I hope you read the links to the scientific/medical papers I provided. Coz many of your descriptions and claims aren't consistent with what they say.

Plus lets not forget that some women with CAIS have their ovaries not completely destroyed by anti-müllerian hormone, but that is very rare.

I don't understand. People with CAIS have ovaries or started out with ovaries? Can you explain and provide some links please? And do you have links backing up what you claimed earlier about muscle memory that I asked about?

Regarding height, the research material I've read has been conducted in various places around the world.

Re sports, you say

even if there will be some advantage, it will be too small comparing to other cases

Which shows you are not now nor have ever been a competitive athlete, and weren't involved in the long hard fight to establish, build and get a measure of parity in sports for female people. And clearly you aren't aware of the great and costly lengths to which sports governing bodies and sports scientists go to identify and eliminate even the tiniest unfair advantages amongst athletes. The difference between winning/medalling in many sports comes down to hundredths or thousandths of a second. In international elite sports, the timekeeping devices now have to divide each second into millionths.

But anyways, I'm getting frustrated discussing this with you coz in your posts on this entire thread, you keep making sweeping statements and pronouncements, but except for linking to Zach Elliot's Paradox Institute videos and the Twitter of a person with an entirely different condition to CAIS, mosaicism, you haven't provided any links, quotations or evidence for your claims. I keep providing quotes and links for mine. I also have asked several specific questions that you've just ignored. You also keep shifting the focus of the convo.

One final word. You said

I almost died from heart attack, as only doctor was there only had experience with male heart attacks - same will be with woman with CAIS if she will be marked as "male", she can die in this case.

I am sorry for your experience with your heart attack, but hope you came out of it okay and are well now. Most of us who have been around for many decades have had similar experiences. I went for years without doctors even considering testing me for the inborn immune deficiency condition I had clear signs of because for decades the medical profession assumed that primary immune deficiency diseases occurred only amongst males, and no one with them could live beyond childhood. As it turns out, these conditions actually occur as commonly or more commonly in females, but females don't usually present with clear-cut symptoms until much later in life due to the extra immune function we get from having a second X chromosome - and coz evolution seems to have designed female humans to be able to compensate for any inborn immune defects we might have whilst in our "prime childbearing years."

But the second part of that statement

same will be with woman with CAIS if she will be marked as "male", she can die in this case.

Doesn't logically follow from the first part, and - most important - it's not necessarily true. Persons with any genetic defect, anomaly or ongoing medical condition have to be assessed with their specific medical issues in mind. Thus, it's essential that someone with CAIS and ALL other health conditions that set us apart from the norm inform the doctors who treat us - whether by telling them verbally at the outset or by wearing medical information bracelets or tattoos that state our conditions/diagnoses. Not being straightforward with this sort of information - as well as what drugs we are taking and our drug allergies, if any - is what really can cause us to die.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

She did explain though that they don't have female hormone levels and that they don't do well when given estrogen in female doses. They don't have much progesterone at all, just the small amount made by the adrenals. So no. They don't have female hormone profiles to start with. You need a lot of progesterone, made by your ovaries, to sustain a pregnancy. It's in the name of the hormone, pro-gestation.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

CAIS are male and should be treated as male. I don't care if they have boobies and "pass as" women on the outside. CAIS have no uterus, no ovaries - no internal female sex organ. They are not female on the inside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Physical

The gonads [in CAIS] are not ovaries, but instead, are testes; during the embryonic stage of development, testes form in an androgen-independent process that occurs due to the influence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Immature sperm cells in the testes do not mature past an early stage, as sensitivity to androgens is required in order for spermatogenesis to complete

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/

CAIS do not have a womb or ovaries

They have testes, and even if their testes don't produce sperm, dysfunctional testes don't make a male less of a male.

Their nonexistent ovaries make them female but their existing testes don't make them male just because they don't produce sperm? Lmfao. Who do you think you're foolin'?

CAIS should be treated as male at best, a hermaphrodite at worst. They have both testes and some dysfunctional external female genitals, so hermaphrodite.

They would be both male and female at worst. Case closed.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I see no reason why anyone should be attacking people with complex medical condition for no reason at all, instead of helping them to bear with it. They are extremely rare condition, there can be just 1-2 of them in whole European country. Other AIS are much more common, but they aren't ambigious at all.

Plus they have nothing to do at all with all the "unambigiously males calling themselves women". Focusing on so extremely rare conditions, instead of adressing main issue - is helping gender ideology, as instead of adressing the real important points, we are adressing some almost inexistant cases which are happening so rarely and which are very ambigious and have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. If all people in the whole world with DSD ("intersex") would call themselves transgender - they would be just 10% of transgender people in USA alone.

They have testes

Not always. Plus those testes are inner and not visible, thought. They are finding out about them only at around age of 14-16, when diagnosed with amenorrhea in more advanced countries and at age of around 25-30, when they already married and trying to find out why they are infertile. In less advanced countries they never diagnosed and never know that they have DSD condition.

Their condition is not researched too deeply, as their body is developed like it couldo support ova and it is not supporting sperm (at least in most cases, unlike other AIS conditions, where they are clearly male). Their inner organs are places on a way that female people have. It is never researched about other difference between males and females, on which side they are. Also, they were never tested if they will support ova or sperm. So we can't say for sure if they are male or female until this will be tested.

And in healthcare they are not having same risks as other males, thought not fully as females either.

a hermaphrodite at worst.

There are no human hermaphrodites and can't exist. Also it will be a slur.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

I see no reason why anyone should be attacking people with complex medical condition for no reason at all, instead of helping them to bear with it. They are extremely rare condition, there can be just 1-2 of them in whole European country. Other AIS are much more common, but they aren't ambigious at all.

You don't know the number of DSD cases and can not claim they are rare when noone bothers with running DNA tests, MRI, etc on the majority of the population.

Not always. Plus those testes are inner and not visible, thought. They are finding out about them only at around age of 14-16, when diagnosed with amenorrhea in more advanced countries and at age of around 25-30, when they already married and trying to find out why they are infertile. In less advanced countries they never diagnosed and never know that they have DSD condition.

Their condition is not researched too deeply, as their body is developed like it couldo support ova and it is not supporting sperm (at least in most cases, unlike other AIS conditions, where they are clearly male). Their inner organs are places on a way that female people have. It is never researched about other difference between males and females, on which side they are. Also, they were never tested if they will support ova or sperm. So we can't say for sure if they are male or female until this will be tested.

If their condition is not studied deeply, you can not claim that they are women, or that their body is developed to support ova. You don't know anything would be the conclusion.

I believe their condition is studied enough. "Not always" is nonsense. They have no ovaries, therefore their bodies are not developed to support ova.

They have testes on the inside, yes. Just because they aren't visible to the eyes doesn't mean they are not men. Are you going to claim you're not human because your genes are not visible to the eyes? You sound like TRAs. "Omg genitals are not visible to the eyes. They're under clothes. How can they determine sex11".

In less advanced countries they never diagnosed and never know that they have DSD condition

All CAIS would know they are not women at some point. They have no ovaries, uteruses, etc. They have testes.

Their bodies are developed to support sperm, not ova. It was supposed to support sperm, and it failed.

CAIS can not get periods. Once they hit puberty, they will be aware of their maleness. Unless you claim they are so mentally challenged they don't know women get periods, and they don't.

There are no human hermaphrodites and can't exist. Also it will be a slur.

It's easier to call CAIS hermaphrodite than whatever nonsense you spout about their bodies supporting ova eventhough they have no female sex organ on the inside.

Words aren't innately "offensive". Don't care if DSD individuals are offended by "hermaphrodite". It's a perfect description. CAIS are disordered hermaphrodites.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If their condition is not studied deeply, you can not claim that they are women, or that their body is developed to support ova. You don't know anything would be the conclusion.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are DSD conditions where males have ovaries, yet they can father a child, but not childbirth. You are very confused.

CAIS can not get periods. Once they hit puberty, they will be aware of their maleness.

You do realize how many women have amenorrhea untreated? When they are asking for tests and being neglected and called just infertile without any more tests? I was called "frigid" for being a lesbian and not liking men, instead of doing any research, my mother almost died because when her periods stopped at age of 35, she just was told "it is early menopuase", while in reality it was completely different issue that could be found out by just few simple tests. Also, many other women would not have periods or would be infertile - who do not have DSD conditions. Why are you combining "intersex" conditions with infertile women and justifying one by another? I only saw such tactics from TRA so far.

I have a strong feeling that you are a male or pretty rich/privileged female, as you seems to have no idea about female anatomy and female problems with healthcare treatment we are receiving.

It's easier to call CAIS hermaphrodite

But it will be untrue and will not work for healthcare at all. This word describes completely different thing. Why you want to lie, when above you said you are doing this because "you don't want to lie"? You are contradicting yourself.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

There are DSD conditions where males have ovaries, yet they can father a child, but not childbirth. You are very confused.

What kind of DSDs? Care to name this DSD in which a male has ovaries AND testes? Hmm?

Also, many other women would not have periods or would be infertile - who do not have DSD conditions. Why are you combining "intersex" conditions with infertile women and justifying one by another? I only saw such tactics from TRA so far.

Infertile women have ovaries, and no testes. If they meet with a doctor, a few tests, and boom, they learn they are infertile.

CAIS are not infertile. They have no female sex organ on the inside at all.

I have a strong feeling that you are a male or pretty rich/privileged female, as you seems to have no idea about female anatomy and female problems with healthcare treatment we are receiving.

Sweatie, I'm a woman in the middle of a "third world country", and the people here are still not mentally challenged enough to let someone be if they can not start their periods.

But it will be untrue and will not work for healthcare at all. This word describes completely different thing. Why you want to lie, when above you said you are doing this because "you don't want to lie"? You are contradicting yourself.

Hermaphrodite means an organism has both male and female sex organs.

CAIS have dysfunctional testes, aka male sex organ, and "vaginal" opening and labia, that's it.

CAIS are male. I called them hermaphrodite because you lie they are women when they aren't. If you're going to claim they are women, I'm going to call them at worst a hermaphrodite, a disordered hermaphrodite, with dysfunctional sex organs of both sexes.

[–]ColoredTwice 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

they are male

So what now, with this logic they must go to male toilets and be grouped with males?

And this means they are men - adult human males as well, as they can't be adult human females, or women. And if they still should be allowed to women's spaces, why other males don't? This all makes little to no sense.

This thread is so ugly. Both TRA and GC are so intersexophobic. And both can't just leave us alone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Nobody here has said that persons with CAIS should be regarded as boys or men, or that they shouldn't use female spaces. On the contrary, everyone has said that phenotypically and socially, persons with CAIS are girls and women.

But the discussion here is also about the fine points of biology, and in such discussions it's important to use precise terms and accurate descriptions. Doing so is not "phobic" or indicative of animus. I personally have tried to use frank but precise and accurate language in my posts whilst promoting a respectful tone.

You might think that the DSDs/VSCs should never be talked about by persons without these conditions, not even in an effort to get a better understanding them of them and to refute myths and to share scientific information and links to published research. But some of us disagree. Enforcing a code of silence leaves everyone in the dark and allows misinformation and myths to remain alive and to spread.

There are many people on earth who were born with all sorts of rare inherited medical conditions, such as cystic fibrosis, hereditary hemochromatosis, porphyria, primary immunodeficiency diseases - and who over their lifetimes develop other rare, life-changing illnesses that probably are genetic in origin or have a genetic component like Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, lupus and pernicious anemia. Many people with such conditions are stigmatized, ostracized and discriminated against for having them. I and family members of mine have personally been called "defective" and treated unfairly many, many times in our lives for having unusual medical conditions that the general population is unfamiliar with, and which are poorly understood even by a majority of medical professionals. This is deeply unpleasant. However, I don't think it's rude or phobic for people with or without rare medical conditions to discuss them, particularly if the aim in doing so in is to reach a better understanding of them and to counteract the myths and undo the stigma associated with them.

The USA's National Organization for Rare Diseases lists 1,200 specific conditions in its data base. Some of these are known DSDs, but the vast majority affect various other body systems rather than development of sex, although many can and do have repercussions that affect reproductive capacity, sex characteristics and the ability to engage in sex acts and to express sexuality. Many of these conditions are crippling, painful, severely life-limiting and fatal. What's more, many of the conditions in the NORD database are considered "orphan diseases" coz very little effort, time or funding has been put into researching them and coming up with treatment options for them.

https://rarediseases.org/for-patients-and-families/information-resources/rare-disease-information/

You really think the best way to help and show respect for people with these conditions is to say that discussing and looking into them shouldn't be allowed coz doing so is "ugly" and "phobic"?

This thread was started by someone who was coming from a place of profound misinformation re CAIS. I and other posters have responded by trying to set him straight, so to speak - (LOL, Kai, I hope you appreciate my lame attempt at humor) - about the nature of the condition and the terminology/name(s) for it that he was mistakenly using. I personally have taken care to use language that is frank but precise and accurate whilst promoting a respectful tone. No one here has promoted using slurs or ostracizing or "othering" people with CAIS.

IMO, trying to shut down discussion of rare diseases - be they DSDs or any other kinds - is not helpful to people who have these conditions or to the general public. Sunlight is a good thing, even if it makes some people wince and burn.

[–]ColoredTwice 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nobody here has said that persons with CAIS should be regarded as boys or men, or that they shouldn't use female spaces

You said they are males. And man is adult human male. While woman is adult human female. If they are men, why they are allowed in women's spaces, while other men don't? There no consistensy in this then. No wonder TRA are using people with CAIS as canon fodder, as it makes you undermine your own position.

Ugliness is in that people with rare conditions are dragged into discussion and dehumanized in absolutely and completely irrelevant discussion to our conditions. And none is even trying to help us or support youth with DSD.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You said they are males.

In my very first post on this thread I said:

Kai, when TRAs bring up DSDs/VSCs, I think it's best just to say that people with these very rare, distinct medical conditions have repeatedly asked that their often traumatic medical histories not be brought into the convo about transgenderism, coz DSDs have nothing to do with transgenderism.

In the next one that appears I said:

In answer to your questions about whether there's "a better word (or term) to call these people," I suggest calling them people. People with medical conditions known as disorders or differences of sex development (DSDs) that cause them to have variations in sex characteristics (VSCs) that are anomalous.

In another post I said:

Violet, sorry to be a nitpicker, but I don't think it's true that any individuals with testes - internal or not - can be said to have developed to support the type of gamete that is female, meaning ova. These are XY people who originally were supposed to develop to have the potential capacity to produce sperm at some point in life, but whose sex development went awry in utero. As a result, they ended up unable to produce gametes at all.

From a strict biological perspective, this is not the same as female - and it sort of debases the meaning and importance of the female sex to suggest that XY persons with DSDs who can't produce any gametes = female. Though for all practical intents and purposes in everyday, ordinary life, the vast majority of people with CAIS are considered female by others and they see themselves as such - which biologists and many/most "GC" feminists including me have no problem with.

Sexual reproduction is actually very varied, but it always involves the merging of a female gamete with a male gamete. And again, male and female gametes come from male or female gonads. I don't think that it's correct to say someone with male sex chromosomes and male gonads is biologically female. Socially, they can be viewed as girls and women, but not biologically. But this is something perhaps it's best to just agree we disagree on and leave it at that.

In response to some sweeping claims that Violet made that were - and still remain - unsubstantiated about persons with CAIS having anatomy that in utero developed to support ova; that they have "female hormonal reaction and levels, female body structure," female height, skeletons, bone density, hearts, lungs, athletic abilities and brains that make them "same as any female without DSD"; and that persons with CAIS therefore would be able to sustain a pregnancy to term if they got uterus transplants, I did say:

we were talking about the definition of biological sex - male and female - which in all plant and animals across the board is determined by whether a person, animal or plant has anatomy organized around the potential capacity to produce either ova or sperm at some point in life.

In humans and other species, gametes come from gonads, and female gonads are ovaries, male gametes are testes. The fact that someone has CAIS doesn't turn that person's testes into ovaries. Phenotypically, persons with CAIS appear female, and socially most are seen and treated as such. But from a strict biological point of view, they are male coz they have male gonads even though their male gonads can't make sperm.

All of which is considerably more nuanced, precise, thoughtful, respectful and well-researched than the simplistic statement - "they are male" - that you are claiming I said and are insinuating is the one and only thing I said.

Ugliness is in that people with rare conditions are dragged into discussion and dehumanized in absolutely and completely irrelevant discussion to our conditions. And none is even trying to help us or support youth with DSD.

How do you know what people on this sub and thread do on other forums and in our real lives offline? Do you have proof that none of us know, or have children or other relatives with DSDs and never have taught, treated or been helpful to adults or youth with DSDs? Have you examined all the banking transactions of the posters here to see to which persons and organizations we are in the habit of contributing money to?

Seriously, do you think organizations like SEICUS should be shut down? That people like Zach Elliott of the Paradox Institute is phobic and that his videos on DSDs reflect that no one "is even trying to help us or support youth with DSD"? That it's "ugly" and "phobic" "GC" feminists who got advocates like intersexfacts and Claire Graham mrkhvoice thrown off Twitter?

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Nobody here has said that persons with CAIS should be regarded as boys or men, or that they shouldn't use female spaces. On the contrary, everyone has said that phenotypically and socially, persons with CAIS are girls and women.

I disagree. I'm not nice and don't care about what anyone "identifies" as, or what anyone has spent years being raised as.

CAIS have testes. They are male. And they should be treated as such.

They can not enter female spaces. There can be compromise to make a third space for CAIS, so they can feel comfortable around each other. Other than that, there is no compromise.

I value truth more than people's feelings. It upsets CAIS to be treated as male? Maybe. Doesn't matter to me.

If I were in control of this society, noone would be able to treat CAIS as female. CAIS would have a third space for themselves, and that's it.

Everyone from an early age would be tested (DNA test, devices that are used to see the internal organs, etc) to make sure they have no DSDs. If they have DSDs, they would be treated as the sex they are, with the DSD considered.

Even if the tests may be "invasive", I value truth more than anything else. It's better to know if someone has DSDs early, than to wait years for them to grow up and learn "oop guys I'm not the sex you claimed I am"

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

"Intersex" people should be gotten rid of. I'd rather be so-called "intersexphobic" than walk on eggshells around a bunch of disorders.

CAIS are males and should have a separate "disordered male" space for themselves if they are not comfortable in male spaces. They don't get to be claimed to be female, socially or whatever, because they are not female and have no place in female spaces.

If you're CAIS, and claim to be female, you are deceiving yourself and everyone else.

If I controlled society, noone would be able to claim CAIS are female. To claim that would result in imprisonment. Thou shalt not deceive in the name of disorders. Everyone from an early age would be under experiments to make sure they have no DSDs. If they have DSDs, say CAIS, they would be treated as the sex they are, not the sex they and those around them falsely think they are.

The experiments are necessary, no matter how so-called "invasive" they may be. Anything to figure the truth out.

[–]ColoredTwice 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Wow, are you calling there to murder me? Almost all of 40 DSD conditions are requiring medical treatment and help. In my condition - I need to take adrenal hormones daily, or I will die. Removing category for my disorder makes no sense and it will kill girls with it (boys can survive in most cases). Historically it was the case - girls were receiving boys treatmen and dying, while boys surviving.

If you're CAIS, and claim to be female, you are deceiving yourself and everyone else.

Looks like you have no idea about DSD conditions. There are 40 different conditions.CAIS is just one of them, most people with CAIS do not know they have it until very late in life, as they look completely like females (they have vulvas and breasts, female skeletal structure) and have similar health complications, excluding ones connected with reproductive system. So your ideas would not work, unless to find 10 people in whole UK we will be testing everyone with extra invasive tests. This makes no sense at all - so many extra expenses for...for what exactly? Because you hate people with CAIS for some reason? And why hating them exactly? They are one of the most rare conditions among DSD's. Even more rare than mine SW CAH.

imprisonment

Lol. That's pretty dictatorship and 100% like TRA are wanting society to be.

on eggshells

Just shows how you are ignorant.

You would not need to be on the eggshells - because you would not even know if someone have CAIS. Starting from time in womb, they were going female phenotype. So they look exactly like any other female - even when naked, as they have vulva, vaginal openning, and in most cases even clitoris-like semi-functional structure. So unless they tell you - you would not ever know. Hell, they don't know it themselves until late in life in most cases.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

CAIS is just one of them, most people with CAIS do not know they have it until very late in life, as they look completely like females (they have vulvas and breasts, female skeletal structure) and have similar health complications, excluding ones connected with reproductive system.

CAIS are disordered males that "pass as" women on the outside. Although they "pass as" women on the outside, they have no female sex organs on the inside. They have no uteruses, ovaries, etc. They have testes, which means their body was supposed to support sperm, and it failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Physical

The gonads [in CAIS] are not ovaries, but instead, are testes; during the embryonic stage of development, testes form in an androgen-independent process that occurs due to the influence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Immature sperm cells in the testes do not mature past an early stage, as sensitivity to androgens is required in order for spermatogenesis to complete

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/

CAIS do not have a womb or ovaries

CAIS would know they are not women at puberty. Women get periods. CAIS can not get periods because they have no female sex organ.

Just because their disordered male bodies make people think they are women, doesn't make them women. A woman is not boobies and "passing as" a woman.

Stop with the TRA nonsense.

That's pretty dictatorship and 100% like TRA are wanting society to be.

You: "imprisonment = eww because TRAs want society to be that way".

Give me a break.

like TRA are wanting society to be.

Looks like TRAS got one thing right: imprisonment. They sadly failed, and instead of throwing in prison the people that claim CAIS are women, when they aren't, they throw in prison the people that stand up for the truth.

No matter how "invasive" the tests may be, it's best to run them on everyone to make sure they have no DSDs. If they happen to have DSDs, depending on each case, they will be taught what their sex is.

And if they are too disordered, like CAIS, they will be gotten rid of.

[–]ColoredTwice 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Spend hundreds of millions of dollars to test billion people to find a dozen "wrong" people and put them in prisons? This sounds very unreasonable, insane and vindicative.

And if they are too disordered, like CAIS, they will be gotten rid of

You realize that you are advocating for albeistic fascism?

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

You realize that you are advocating for albeistic fascism?

The only kind of "ableism" I have no issue with

Spend hundreds of millions of dollars to test billion people to find a dozen "wrong" people and put them in prisons? This sounds very unreasonable, insane and vindicative.

Anything to know whether or not someone has a DSD

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for posting this! I'm going to go read those resources. We learned a bit about DSDs in school but they are so rare that if a patient of mine turned out to have one I would have to go read what to do about it and how to counsel them. Need to do some continuing education during lockdown anyway so here's a good place to start! Much appreciated!

Oh and testicles with cancer make HCG. I wonder if CAIS patients are screened for that?

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oh and testicles with cancer make HCG. I wonder if CAIS patients are screened for that?

That's so interesting. I did a search of HCG and CAIS, but all I came up with are papers showing that it's long been and still is common to give injections of HCG to XY persons with suspected and known DSDs for diagnostic, assessment and exploratory purposes:

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/31/5/526/2716213

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1546104/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25345084/#:~:text=Background%3A%20Human%20chorionic%20gonadotropin%20(HCG,of%20testicular%20function%20during%20childhood.

However, I've not been able to find any info about whether persons with CAIS have been found to make HCG on their own, or whether screening for such is done. In this study published in 2020, for example, patients with both PAIS and CAIS were given HCG to stimulate hormone production, then the levels of various hormones the patients made in response to the stimulation were measured. But it doesn't appear that HCG itself that the studied patients might have made endogenously was one of the hormones screened for and measured. Which suggests that it's presumed - or known? - that these patients don't make HCG, or that the scientists conducting such studies have a glaring blind spot.

https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12958-020-00593-0

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

which biologists and many/most "GC" feminists including me have no problem with.

Just because biologists and most GCs believe something doesn't make it true (argumentum ad populum fallacy)

CAIS are male. Biologists should know that. Once they claim "they are women socially", they have left their area of expertise and entered the area of feelings.

Most biologists in the west are brainwashed by the "gender identity" agenda and can't be taken seriously.

Most biologists in non-western countries are conservative and believe a woman is "looking a certain way on the outside" and "fulfilling certain roles". They can't be taken seriously.

Society is trash.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then - why even bring poor people to the discussion, who already have issues, and then dehumanize them by calling "less women" or "hybrids" or anything else. I think one transgender organisation even called women with CAIS as "mutants".

They seriously called these women "mutants"? Wow, that is just so wrong but I can't even say I'm surprised because TRAs are just annoying, misogynistic men.

Thank you so much for the link to that YouTube channel, I'm gonna start watching them now!

EDIT: Just learned about CAIS and how they really are just women, just with a genetic condition. They may be born with testes but they are internal and useless, they don't do anything and are even suggested to be removed surgically. They still develop into females regardless. And finally most women who do have this condition don't know it until later in their life. In short, still women and even more important, extremely rare.

And I will look into Alex Alicit as well. I hesitate to ask her questions about this kinda stuff as I'm sure she's been through enough with these annoying TRAs using her as some "Gotcha" trophy piece but I'll at the very least take a look at her previous postings and retweetings.

And that is so unfortunate wiith what happened to IntersexFacts. You're right, it's a war on women who dare speak out and it's really starting to get unacceptable. I mean, it was always stupid to begin with but it's like whenever a woman dare speak up on this stuff and starts slowly getting a platform, the TRAs just try to silence them out so they don't inevitably peak trans people.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Males are the individuals of a given species who produce small gametes and females are the ones who produces large gametes. Hermaphrodites are individuals capable of producing both gametes. True hermaphroditism don't exist in humans. People with disorder of sex development (DSD) produce either sperm, eggs or neither. There is, thought, a rare medical condition that was (mis)called true hermaphroditism (now, ovotesticular DSD) where both ovarian and testicular tissue are present, but there are not cases of individuals with both functional set of gonades.

Anyway, trans identified people with a DSD are very rare. Most trans identified people are your typical XX female or XY male, but they love to use DSD as gotcha, neverthless. This dude using CAIS as example is just trying to confuse you because most people don't know much about this topic.

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

but they love to use DSD as gotcha, neverthless.

And this make no sense as well.

Let's say person with DSD is 3rd sex (which is not true). So what?

You was born with XY male, lived 40 years as XY male, all your body is completely male. How existing of XY female who was born like that proves that you can become female too after 40 years? XY female not changed her sex, she was born this way, and never was XY male. So what this argument have to do with you or with possibility of sex change? Even if there will be 100 different sexes, how that makes anyone able to change sex, if all cases are inmutable during life?

Anyway, trans identified people with a DSD are very rare.

By reports there 0.6% of population are trans. While only 0.2% of population are people with DSD, and only 0.05% of them have ambigious genitals, and only 0.02% have ambigious chromosomes. This means that there are 30 times more trans people than people with DSD.

Transes rhetorics about "sex is a spectrum" is VERY harmful to intersex youth. And it may push them to transition or surgeries. They are called "less females" or "less males" on a scale - and it creates a lot of stress on parents, kids themselves and their attending doctors. Being perceived by others and especially by themselves as incomplete or "lesser" will lead kid to think that they are abnormal, and majority of people are aiming to be normal, so that can lead to IGM, parents being nervous and kids wanting to "I will better be transman and real man by this ideology than incomplete lesser woman". This argument is supported by recent statistics of WPATH (they are liers, thought, and hate intersex people really much, so take this data with grain of salt) and few other trans organisations - there is increased number of trans or non-binary among people with DSD, while older than 25 people with DSD almost never trans, and if they are trans - it was in almost every single case mistreatment by doctors in 70s-80s and forced IGM with transition, when this phenomena was not studied as well as it is now.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

When do they ever make sense?

There is a very significant contrast between contrast between the intersex advocates who want to prevent unnecessary surgeries and that kids have access to accurate information about their conditions and the transactivists who are pushing kids towards "medical transition" and gaslight them when talking about biology. Transactivism certainly isn't helpful to intersex youth, quite the contrary. And it doesn't help that intersex are often lumped within the LGBTQ+.

and only 0.02% have ambigious chromosomes.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Do you mean mutations like for example a X chromosome with an insertion of the SRY gen or a Y chromosome with the SRY gen deleted/mutated?

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, like XX with Sry or XY without, or CAIS cases.

And it doesn't help that intersex are often lumped within the LGBTQ+.

There was organisation for TQI+ specifically, and they recently had their big conferense, and they not mentioned "I" part even a single time. They gathered money as well, and spended those to fund stuff to TQ, nothing was spend on "I". They just lumping them together with themselves as useful tool. Same as when speaking "Anti-LGBT" and then only speaking about "T" part, the LGB there only lumped to look more solid and like it has something to do with everyone of us. Like you know, that "hard to get estrogen and face surgery for transitioning of transwomen, and we need taxpayer money to fund it" has anything to do with lesbian women like myself or gay men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I also don't understand what is meant by the term

ambigious chromosomes

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Right, I do admit I totally messed up implying that Hermaphroditism is a thing in humans when it isn't and that CAIS is not Hermaphroditism. I watched a video about CAIS that was linked to me from someone in this thread and I also looked into some of the other DSDs as well and I'm a little more informed on what they are.

Yeah I think that TRA was really trying to confuse me for sure.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

The term hermaphrodite was used in older medical literature untill it was replaced by intersex. The term DSD was coined in the 2000's.

http://www.intersexinitiative.org/articles/dsdfaq.html

http://www.hormones.gr/8681/article/article.html

[–]ColoredTwice 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Outside of English-speaking countries I know term intersex was not used at all until recent. In most cases it was something like "congenital disorders in sexual development".

Word Intersex is very harmful, because people often literally translating it as "between sexes" and then it used by TRA. Second reason is that people with DSD does not feeling very good if you say to us "you are half man and half woman" or "you are less woman". It is very toxic and leads to IGM, puts youth with DSD and their parents on extra pressure and stress.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry to hear it. I don't know about other languages, but the term intersex has been used in Spanish for a while, alognside intersexo and intersexualidad (intersexuality). I've seen Spanish-speaking newsmedia talk about LGBTI organizations, where the I stads for intersex, because local TRA also likes to use it to "prove" that sex is a spectrum and you can't say who is a woman or a man based in their biology.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Just to clarify: In medical literature written in English by scientists and doctors from predominantly Anglophone places such as the UK and North America, the term hermaphrodite with no qualifiers hasn't been used in reference to humans for a long time. Even in the Victorian era, attempts to be more precise were made, and the terms "true hermaphrodite" and "pseudo hermaphrodite" were used, as were the confusing terms "male hermaphrodite" and "female hermaphrodite."

Intersex people were previously referred to as "hermaphrodites" or "congenital eunuchs". In the 19th and 20th centuries, some medical experts devised new nomenclature in an attempt to classify the characteristics that they had observed, the first attempt to create a taxonomic classification system of intersex conditions. Intersex people were categorized as either having "true hermaphroditism", "female pseudohermaphroditism", or "male pseudohermaphroditism". These terms are no longer used, and terms including the word "hermaphrodite" are considered to be misleading, stigmatizing, and scientifically specious in reference to humans. The term "hermaphrodite" is now used to describe "an animal or plant having both male and female reproductive organs". In 1917, Richard Goldschmidt created the term intersexuality to refer to a variety of physical sex ambiguities. In clinical settings, the term "disorders of sex development" (DSD) has been used since 2006, a shift in language considered controversial since its introduction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

https://isna.org/node/16/

https://www.degruyter.com/view/journals/jpem/18/8/article-p729.xml

Unfortunately, throughout the 20th century and even to this very day, medical papers written in or translated into English by medical experts from from non-Anglophone countries still refer to persons with DSDs as "hermaphrodites." Just the other day I came across a recent paper from Pakistan that did this.

Also, within the Anglophone world, not everyone who has conditions now known as DSDs and treats people with them is happy with the term DSD:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5808814/

Since the term DSD was introduced, many people have changed it to mean "differences in sex development" rather than "disorders of sex development" coz they feel the word "disorder" is pejorative. However, tons of people with all sorts of other medical disorders do not feel the word "disorder" is inherently stigmatizing or insulting - just as many of us who have genetic anomalies/mutations do not mind these being referred to as "genetic defects." What most of us take umbrage at is being called "defective," not with acknowledging that we have or carry defects or come from families that do so.

Nowadays, there's a new push to replace DSD with VSC, which stands for "variations in sex characteristics."

Many persons with these conditions and who treat persons with them still prefer the term "intersex." However, as a writer and editor and observer of the social scene and contemporary politics, I think the term "intersex" has not served the DSD/VSC population or the rest of society well. Coz "intersex" makes it sound like people with DSDs/VSCs are "in between" or a mixture of the two sexes, which is inaccurate and "othering." And coz the term "intersex" and the conditions it supposedly is shorthand for have been seized upon by gender identity ideologues and queer theory advocates to promote the idea that "sex is a spectrum" rather than a binary, and to claim that ascertaining human sex is so difficult to do in the vast majority of cases that it can be asserted with confidence that "there is no such thing as biological sex" as this supposed "expert" did on TV: https://youtu.be/10fDRERJh4w

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah okay. Interesting to know.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The existence of humans who are chromosomally male while being phenotypically female due to a condition that effects, at most, 0.005% of male individuals, does not override the other 99.995% of humans who do not have this disorder.

You can highlight this absurdity with most other things as well. Let's look at the definition of homo sapiens (i.e humans) on dictionary.com:

the species of bipedal primates to which modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) belong, characterized by a large brain, a nearly vertical forehead, a skeletal build lighter and teeth smaller than earlier humans, and dependence upon language and the creation and utilization of complex tools: the species has existed for about 200,000 years.

Their argument is essentially that because some humans are born with extra, missing, or nonfunctioning legs that we should no longer be able to refer to humans, collectively, as a bipedal species. This definition also mentions 'large brains' as a shared trait among humans. However, anencephaly is a condition in which some fetuses are missing a significant portion of their brains. Their brains cannot be categorized as 'large'. But I don't see anyone trying to rewrite the definition of a human being because some humans are born with very small brains. Also, Anencephaly presents in 1 in 10,000 births. Much more common than CAIS.

Furthermore, the existence of CAIS, or any other genetic condition for that matter, has no bearing on the legitimacy of transgenderism. Nowhere in the diagnosis criteria for CAIS does it mention that the person must possess a brain of one sex and the body of another (which isn't true anyway, brain sex isn't real), or say that individuals with CAIS are able to change sex. The diagnosis criteria also does not mention gender dysphoria, although given that the TRAs have co opted intersex terminology to fuel their narrative and used intersex people as scapegoats to hide their regressive beliefs from scrutiny, we may see more intersex people with gender dysphoria coming to the forefront.

Feel free to use these when arguing against it.

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It bugs me to no end that there are people out there arguing about biological things when they don't have basic grounding in biology. A true hermaphrodite has two sets of fully functional sex organs. You've probably seen one of them, the common pond snail. In that case they can self-fertilize, so you only need one of them to grow a pond full of snails. No human intersex condition has two fully functional sets of reproductive organs - You can be born with interderminate genitals and various other malformations but no human has both testes and ovaries. Its impossible to have both and anyone that claims this is lying.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I realize that now. Thanks to a video link someone shared with me, I had been watching some videos that further explain these DSDs in greater detail and yep, not a single case (that I've watched so far) have said that someone was born with both testes and ovaries at the same time. Just usually one or the other and developed or under-developed.

[–]cinnaflo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I would of said trans people need to stop appropriating/fetishizing the intersex condition to further their ideological movement. I don't get how these people can't see how offensive this is. They are nowhere even remotely the same thing or on the same level.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm definitely gonna do that next time. I think one reason why these people do this is because they genuinely don't know about DSDs and also because some of them are young. I remember getting into a little conversation with someone in a comments section who took issue with me when I said Lesbians don't do dick and do not have to be with MTF because they are men. We go at it for awhile as I use the usual counter tactics like defining man and woman ,asking them what "gender" even means, and so on and that is when they brought up Intersex people. I pretty much told this person that DSDs are genetic condition and I went into a listing breakdown of how DSDs don't change sex class and the person just responded that they didn't know what I was talking about and that they were only 14 years old (it was a YouTube comment).

So yeah, I think a lot of these people are like teenagers who don't know what Intersex really is.

[–]cinnaflo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've definitely heard of radfems arguing with TRAs who make some of the craziest/most regressive statements only to find out that the person was 15-16. It happens, and it's pretty scary how it seems to be teenagers who are dictating/ unintentionally distorting trans narratives and the reality of biology.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right and I think it just really goes to show how the brainwashing is spreading most notably because these teens and even middle schoolers are using social media like Twitter where TRAs are running all over. I remember the YouTube GNC Centric even mentioned this with how she fell for the tricks because she was a naive high schooler who came across that kinda stuff on Tumblr and Twitter.

[–]No_ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Real or not, they ruined it for themselves when they let men bully lesbians in the name of lgbtffbeihehxjdbxjsjzhwo rights.

Maybe a small amount are the “real kind” and “don’t pose a risk” but I can’t trust any of them anymore. The rest of them ruined it.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't blame you and after seeing how some other gay men are going along with this madness and the bullying of lesbians and women losing their spaces, I'm disgusted as a gay man myself.