How do you handle women who are in support of "trans Rights" and say that they don't feel threatened by TIMs?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

This is something that I always tend to run into when I'm commenting on videos posted by Gender Critical people and Radfems. I recently made a comment on King Critical's video response to Lindsay Ellis' recent video on "Transphobia in Pop Culture" and I made a comment agreeing with King on how Lindsay comes off like a misogynist, that she hates women. And I got a response by a few women who said that I shouldn't be speaking about how women should feel about trans ideology ("Transgenderism") and that they had no problem saying that Transwomen are women. And how they don't think it's a big deal for TIMs to use women's bathrooms and changing rooms. I responded how I usually do when it comes to those issues with the reports of women getting assaulted in their spaces by men and I'm usually met with the usual "You're cherry picking", "It's a minority", etc.

And this got me thinking. I really do believe that women should have their own separate spaces away from men and this included TIMs as well. But I'm usually caught off guard when I come across women who aren't bothered by TIMs in women's spaces and how some will think men like me are being "hateful" and I even got called "Chauvinistic" once before.

Again, I want to help and I'm curious on how you all tend to handle women who are essentially okay with women's spaces being erased. That "transwomen are women" and all that jazz. Like how should one handle the women who say that Transwomen deserve to be in their preferred spaces?

all 31 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]censorshipment 10 insightful - 6 fun10 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Call them (the women) privileged and inform them that underprivileged/marginalized/minority women's spaces are being colonized by privileged men. Show them stories of older men going back to college as trans women to fraternize with younger women. 40+ year old men shouldn't be in social groups with 20 year old women. Tell them older men taking female hormones are bullying/grooming/sexually manipulating younger women who don't want to have sex with males. Tell them this is bigger than restrooms and sports... a whole generation of young women are being sexually coerced and damaged by creepy men via social media, dating apps, and "queer" groups.

Edit: It's also important to inform them about "incels" because so many TiMs are socially awkward, self-hating, fragile angry virgins who not only hate women but also hate other men. Lots of these men scream about the patriarchy and hate "cis" straight men. It's almost funny how self-hating they are... I wish they would implode.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly didn't know about the older men going back to college to fraternize with younger women to be honest, the more you know! I'll definitely have to look into that because that's creepy. But I feel like women would just say "20 is an adult age" or something like that.

Tell them older men taking female hormones are bullying/grooming/sexually manipulating younger women who don't want to have sex with males.

Right, it's like no one cares about the Lesbians and it's absolutely messed up.

It's also important to inform them about "incels" because so many TiMs are socially awkward, self-hating, fragile angry virgins who not only hate women but also hate other men. Lots of these men scream about the patriarchy and hate "cis" straight men. It's almost funny how self-hating they are... I wish they would implode.

I feel like if I'm talking to a younger woman, she may know what an incel is but eh, I'm not sure, I haven't really talked about the concept of incels with women so I'll try this.

[–]BEB 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I say, "Consent is not transferable and I don't consent. If you are fine with being nude around men, use men's spaces rather than the spaces women far braver than you fought for in order to keep women AND children safe."

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh wow, that's a good one! Yeah you're right, if these women really think that having men in their spaces is a good idea, they should just walk into Men's spaces and be done with it. But then you'll have those "Transwomen are women" women and you know how that goes usually.

[–]our_team_is_winning 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Kai! Always love your posts. You see the picture way more clearly than a lot of women I know. I've had this discussion with numerous female friends. One is like "I have brothers. It's no big deal." I suspect they wrongly think all TIM are petite gay men who pass very well and have zero interest in looking at the women. I always point them to the video of "It's Ma'am" rampaging his way around Gamestop when his woman costume didn't fool anybody. They just don't get it at all.

I try asking "well what about those of us who ARE bothered? Maybe you're not, but millions of us ARE. We do not consent to this. Do you care about our trauma from this?" These women will tell other women "you've got a problem then!" Where does that come from? Some will say women are just so desperate to be liked, be "nice," be door mats... but they're not being nice to other women. They're just bowing down to men.

And I cannot explain it, and I keep encountering it.

I'd like to see more gay men speak out. Any chance you can do some panel discussions on your channel? All gay men, I mean, who understand that we have sex-segregated spaces for a reason.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Right, they have a glamorized image of what a TIM actually is when the reality is most aren't like that at all.

I try asking "well what about those of us who ARE bothered? Maybe you're not, but millions of us ARE. We do not consent to this. Do you care about our trauma from this?" These women will tell other women "you've got a problem then!" Where does that come from? Some will say women are just so desperate to be liked, be "nice," be door mats... but they're not being nice to other women. They're just bowing down to men.

Honestly I feel that it's true though. That these women are desperate to be liked. Look at what happens to women who go against the grains of what's expected of them to be. They're usually called "bitches" and a lot of these women do hang around a lot of men and they think it's the worst thing ever to get talked down by men for being opinionated.

I'd like to see more gay men speak out. Any chance you can do some panel discussions on your channel? All gay men, I mean, who understand that we have sex-segregated spaces for a reason.

I'm gonna be doing a few videos about this on my channel. I'm not going to turn into a full on Gender Critical channel but I will have about 3 on there. I think that hearing from the perspective of a feminine, gender nonconforming man can probably help because while I appreciate the few gay men like Arty and MrMenno who are speaking out, I think adding one more voice from someone who doesn't even try to conform to masculinity in the least can help add more. And yeah if I ever got invited to a panel to speak more about this, despite my social anxiety, I'd give it a try lol.

[–]our_team_is_winning 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I wonder if Benjamin Boyce would have you on? His interviews seem to run TOO long, but I like how calm he is. Maybe if you were one of two or three simultaneous guests, it would take some of the pressure off.

I'd love to see you start maybe a separate channel for GNC issues and have it really take off. To help counter all the "transwomen" channels, it would be great to see a man say "hey look at my style, this is me, I'm being authentic, and I'm a man. Stop trying to trans men like me with your gender theory BS!"

Can't wait for your new videos.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I was thinking that if I ever do make some traction with my gender critical videos, Benjamin Boyce would probably be the one who'd be open to having an interview with me since he seemed to have done that for other people speaking out against Trans ideology. And yeah I feel like for someone like myself, I'd probably work better if I was guest appearing with one or two more guests because I don't think I'd do well if it was just myself.

I'd love to see you start maybe a separate channel for GNC issues and have it really take off.

I've been debating this for a long while ever since I started writing rough drafts and notes about the things I wanna talk about pertaining to the nonsensical Trans ideology and life as a nonconforming feminine gay man. I'm not entirely sure if I would want to put that on my Kai Decadence channel because I tend to mostly talk about music and the Goth scene on there but the reason why I'm uncertain is because I'd want these videos to get seen and I don't know how well they'd do if I created a fresh new channel with no audience and if these videos just faded into the background.

But then on the other hand for my main channel, it's mostly a lifestyle type channel and being gay is a facet of my life and the trans crap does affect it and so for that, that's why I think uploading those videos on my main channel would be a good move to reach a higher audience even though I feel most will not take it well and denounce me as a "terf".

I think what I'm gonna do is just uploaded my 3 videos on my main channel and if they do get some engagement, I'll probably make a separate channel and post more Gender Critical content there.

[–]Baileyscheesecakes 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I haven't been in this situation (yet), but one question I would love to ask these women is why they have so little compassion for other women? Why is empathy and understanding only for the trans people? Why aren't women's feelings and experiences valid? I remember the struggles in the 70s for women to be taken seriously and not dismissed as irrational, hysterical, on our periods, or just being women. For example, we fought to get the message across that what men considered innocent and nothing in the workplace was harassment and created an unpleasant work environment. Yet now, when women voice specific concerns about accommodating transgender people, they are being vilified. Why is this? Why not can't we show compassion for ALL people?

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

These young lib fem types are so f-ing entitled sometimes. They have no idea what women my age went through, much less what women older than me.

Hey, girls, my rights- that my mother, grandmother, great-grandmother and I fought for, along with millions of other brave women over generations - are not yours to give away.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know right? I have not seen any woman ask these women about their lack of compassion for other women. Don't get me wrong, I've seen radfems ask in their videos and articles but never got to see an actual live situation where they ask face to face. The only guess I have is self-internalized misogyny.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Public policy and laws are not based on - or at least they shouldn't be based on - the personal preferences of particular individuals. They're based on what's best for the population as a whole, and made with the intent of accommodating the needs of all the different types of people and physical bodies there are and balancing the rights of everyone.

In societies that strive to be fair to all, various kinds of segregation for legitimate reasons are allowed. Segregation is not inherently wrong and unfair in and of itself.

For example, it's fair to segregate schools and grades by age. Making everyone from toddlers through to college and graduate schools obtain their education in one-room schoolhouses would serve the interests of no one; in fact, it would cause harm. Similarly, it's fair to segregate classes, programs and schools by subject matter. Trying to teach or learn math, literature, geography and history in one class is not reasonable. A graduate or vocational school that has to teach medicine, engineering, law, auto mechanics, architecture, construction trades and cosmetology all at once all under one roof with all the students in giant, hangar-sized classrooms would not effectively educate anyone.

We allow discrimination and segregation in certain instances. It's permitted not to allow minors under a certain age to purchase alcohol or cigarettes or to have sex, or be pursued by adults for sex. It's permitted for bars, nightclubs and fancy restaurants to have a no kids policy. It's permitted to bar children under a certain height from going on particular rides in theme parks. It's permitted to have public libraries and programs for people who are blind or with serious visual impairments. It's okay for people who are deaf to have their own colleges/unis. It's okay to bar people under a certain body weight and with certain health histories from donating blood or plasma. It's permitted for certain health care facilities and practices to be for children; for some to be only for people with certain kinds of health care conditions (cancer, for example); and it's permitted for senior centers, some nursing homes and retirement communities to be only for people of a certain age (or only for couples in which one is of that age).

Public spaces can only exist and be used for the good of all with rules and a degree of segregation based on physical realities. Cities usually have strict traffic rules that bar buses from bike lanes, cars and cabs from bus lanes, bicycles from sidewalks, and big rig trucks from certain streets. If the operators of every type of vehicle suddenly started going wherever they want coz individual drivers and riders decide "they don't think it's a big deal" for buses and big rigs to take over bike lanes, and for motor vehicles to drive on sidewalks, chaos and carnage would ensue.

Tell them to study some history. And to look into the concept of "Chesterton's fence" and "the tragedy of the commons." Concepts that used to be taught early on in Western schools, but now seem to be things many young people are unfamiliar with.

Also ask them if they are aware that the vast majority of TIMs - 80% perhaps more - are sexually attracted to girls/women, that nearly all (95%) still have their dicks and balls, and that TIMs have the same or considerably higher rates of sexual aggression, inappropriate behavior and sexual offending against girls and women as "cis" males do.

And be specific: ask them how they'd feel having to be naked, partially undressed and/or dealing with intimate bodily matters like menstruation, miscarriage, pregnancy, breastfeeding or pumping, menopausal flooding and the gyno and incontinence issues elderly women often face in front of the leering eyes of Jessica Yaniv/Simpson, Eli Elrich, Karen White. And/or in front of the judgmental, misogynistic, ageist eyes of appearance-obsessed TIMs who openly envy and covet the female body to the point that some of them admit to hating the very sight of girls and women and feel violent rage and a desire to kill every "pretty" girl or woman they see - whilst at the same time, nearly all of them have admitted to feeling disdain, sometimes disgust, towards girls and women who don't conform to their narrow, misogynistic image of what girls and women all should look like - which is young, sexy, girly and babelicious with tiny waists, big breasts and butts but otherwise no body fat, and of course no pubic or other body hair.

If these women you encoutner still say they'd have no problem with this coz to them "it's no big deal," ask if they think their mothers and grandmothers and young sisters just learning to deal with menstruation and male sexual harassment would feel the same way. And ask who the hell they think they are that they believe they can give consent for all girls and women, and that it's their personal right to give away the hard-won rights that previous generations of women fought hard to obtain.

[–]GConly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ask them what they think a transwoman is.

Most of them have the idea that they are adults who had gender dysphoria as kids, have wrong sex brain areas and are basically women behaviourally. As in low offending, feminine, mostly sexually interested in men. Most think they are post op HSTS, with body strength about the same as ours.

Then point out that very few transwomen had gender dysphoria as kids, most are straight with quite normal male brain development and offending behaviour. Follow that up with most have their man bits, and have no intention of parting with them. Then add that most are aroused by the idea of being a woman, and get aroused by being in female only spaces. Explain AGP, a d debunk the 'AGP is a myth' bullshit if they spout it.

I then like to go through exactly how dangerous all humans with penises are, and I run through the sex offending stats. About 22% to 57% in surveys have admitted to a sexual assault, and around 10% have committed a rape by college age.

I can dig up more examples of TIMs committing stranger sex offences against women than I can women. And the ones where women have offended, they were assisting a male offender.

And best estimate is there are 500 times more women than TIMs, the difference in the sort of offending we are talking about is going to be more than 1000 times greater than female offending.

Every reason to keep cis men out of women only spaces applies to TIMs.

Finally, blow their mind by pointing out the 'wave of ant trans violence' is made up bullshit. They are about as likely to be killed as a real woman, even though they get involved in crime at the same rate as other men.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most think they are post op HSTS, with body strength about the same as ours.

I think more of these women need to realize that most TIMs do NOT get SRS. Other than it being expensive and how many TIMs get sexually off to being validated in their "womanhood", I think a lot also know that having an alteration like that is the path of no return. That once it's done, you can't change it back and that scares them.

Then add that most are aroused by the idea of being a woman, and get aroused by being in female only spaces. Explain AGP, a d debunk the 'AGP is a myth' bullshit if they spout it.

Yeah this one is a tricky one to explain. I remember trying to explain about the sexual gratifiation a lot of these TIMs get from being validated and tried to explain about AGP but the woman disregarded it and hilariously rebut me with "Contrapoints debunked that, it's not a real thing". I wanted to link her to some photos of these men taking their "sexy" photos in the women's restroom but she blocked me before I could. But yeah, I'll keep trying with this one because I think a lot of women may not know what AGP is.

I then like to go through exactly how dangerous all humans with penises are, and I run through the sex offending stats. About 22% to 57% in surveys have admitted to a sexual assault, and around 10% have committed a rape by college age

I'll try this but I have a feeling they'll just try to downplay it. "Oh only 10%? That's a small minority!" and so on.

I can dig up more examples of TIMs committing stranger sex offences against women than I can women. And the ones where women have offended, they were assisting a male offender.

Oh that's a good one. It's true that most sex crimes are committed by men. Women rarely ever commit a sex crime all on their own and like you said, it's usually them following a male offender. Who knows if that woman would've committed the act if she wasn't around that man who was telling her to do things. And even better, I could probably build off from this and explain a little about female socialization because I know some will say that the woman is still responsible and sure she is to an extent since people have freewill but I think explaining how some women can get into that position can help paint a picture as well since a lot of these woman accomplices tend to have low self esteem.

All in all thanks for this rundown, I'll keep it in mind if I ever have to debate with a woman who's a bleeding heart TRA. Even if it doesn't work, it can at least plant the seed in her to maybe think about it more.

[–]aloris342 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I like the comment below that consent is not transferable. "My privacy is not yours to give away." My experience, however, has been that these people generally are not people who can be convinced. They are men, or they are women in good financial situations who are at little risk of themselves or their daughters being placed in a dangerous situation. As long as they get theirs, they don't really care about vulnerable women. When you question them a little about their reasoning, you discover that in their hearts, they consider a woman who can't fight off a (larger) man, or who is afraid to walk home alone late at night, or who has any kind of debilitating female problem, or is physically unattractive, to be unworthwhile people who don't deserve to have safety. If such women would only improve themselves to be worthy of good lives, then they wouldn't need stupid things like sex-segregated spaces.

Sorry to be so cynical.

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Remind them that it's not just one man, but gangs of men, who can access women's spaces unhindered. Also that there are children in women's locker rooms and women's shelters - including babies.

And tell them that it's entirely possible that they will get a male TSA screener, so will their grandmother.

If they don't care about that, then I hope they do get a male TSA screener, or are alone naked in a locker room with a big swinging dick. But not their grandmother. She deserves better. She should disinherit the little shit.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's okay, I understand your cynicism and I've noticed this too. It does tend to come from more privileged women who are tone deaf to the world around them and the reality is like for women who aren't as privileged have to deal with. I wish there was a way to fucking peak these women or at least have some more worthwhile ways to try to get them to see the bigger picture. Normally talking about children can help because no parent wants their child to get harmed but these women usually send their children to private schools and whatnot so there's not much of a chance of them having to worry about uncouth behavior.

[–]fuckupaddams 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

These same women are hypocritical. They think they're fine with trans -girls- being in their spaces, but if Jonathan Yaniv was in the next stall while they're changing their tampon they'd be extremely uncomfortable. They like to rant that people are only okay with the harmless-looking, passable trans women, but the truth is they are too. I don't think they quite understand that it's not just hysteria to say your average man is now able to put on a wig (if that) and claim he's a trans woman, it's literally happening. They say the best way for someone to peak is to talk to and meet trans people. Not the instagram, trust fund, youtube star trans woman. I'm talking about bob the trans woman.

[–]BEB 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are whole TiM subs on Reddit featuring Bob the Transwoman that these chicks need to see. Jonathan Yaniv has nothing on some of these laydees.

I can't link the TIM sub Reddits here but they're easy to find.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep that's the hypocrisy alright. I like to play around with that and say just that. That if they really don't care, they shouldn't have a problem with guys like Johnathon Yaniv and "Christine" Weston Chandler using their spaces as well. And when they obviously object to that, I just say "Why not? They "FEEL" like women, so why aren't they allowed in? Isn't that discriminatory?" and it's just funny how some try to dance around it.

And I think you're right, these women have a glamorized view of what they think "transwomen" are like and are not aware of the reality. It's the whole expectation vs reality thing haha.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Back when I was a libfem, I used to scoff at the concern of men in women's bathrooms as conservative fearmongering. I equated it to the gay panic in those old timey PSAs warning about gay men hiding in playgrounds waiting to snatch kids. What changed my mind is realizing that most TW are NOT harmless, homosexual men with zero sexual interest in women, and went far enough to cut off their penises just to use the woman's restroom. The majority of them are the same heterosexual men with intact penises, the only difference is that they are wearing dresses.

The second was realizing male and female socialization exists. Women are conditioned to submit to authority and be care takers to any and every cause that demands our attention. Even at the expense of our own safety and happiness. I had to be the guardian of the helpless gay drag queens who only wanted to pee without getting bullied by cismen in the Men's restroom. Only they dont just want to pee. They are still entitled, heterosexual men who often talk about how sexually thrilling (euphoria) whenever they are validated by women. Such as going into their spaces (pushing boundaries), or even being referred to in female pronouns. Eventually, I broke that conditioning and can stand up for my self and my own safety, and that Im allowed to keep the (penis free) spaces designed for me. If their feelings matter, then MY feelings matter.

Any reason I would not want "cis" men in my spaces are the same reason I do not want TW in my spaces. Because they are the same thing.

[–]aloris342 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think for me it is not about the immediate safety aspect (i.e. the rate of assaults in women's restrooms before and after legal changes in policy), but about the dignity of women being able to set boundaries around private bodily events, and the more global (long term) safety aspect of women having a right to set these boundaries. People shrugged when I explained to them that women in a shelter had to shower with a man who was leering at them, or at the idea that women in prisons might be impregnated by a transwoman. The argument is that this is all about compassion and kindness (i.e. we need to be compassionate to transwomen), but the lack of compassion for biologically female people gives the lie to this argument. A new societal construct is being built where women are considered selfish bigots if we exert the right to set personal boundaries. This has nothing to do with compassion and everything to do with power.

Where I am really concerned is about girls, about their right to be safe in their bodies, and, as importantly, the rights of their parents to protect their bodily safety and privacy.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But many homosexual TIMS are incredible misogynists filled with hatred, envy and resentment towards girls and women. These men might not want to fuck us, but they want to become us. So whilst they might leer at us and inspect us in a different way than het men do, they still will look girls and women up and down in an unseemly, prurient way that's bound to make many female people extremely uncomfortable.

Also, most gay TIMs are incredibly superficial and looks-obsessed, and they tend to be extremely judgmental and ageist about other people's appearance. Gay TIMs tend to look down on the majority of girls and women for having natural human female bodies that haven't been altered with cosmetic surgeries and procedures to look like Instagram models, porn stars or Barbie dolls - and they are scathing and scornful about those of us who fail to conform to their very narrow standards of "feminine" beauty standards.

I've written on here before about my personal experience of being subjected to vile sexual harassment by a gay TIM* street prostitute and hustler in my neighborhood in NYC for daring to be pregnant in public 30 years ago. I've also written before about how in the 1990s a group of gay male TIMs* (most of whom did "sex work," but some of whom also did drag) made a huge stink over not being able to join the women's-only gym I used to go to. When these gay males who said they "felt like" women were declined, they mounted a relentless campaign threatening the owners (who happened to be lesbians) with lawsuits and tying up the phone lines, making continual stinks at the front desk so that the atmosphere in the place became very unpleasant and scary for all. These gay men who wanted to be women and said they had the brains of women would also stand outside the entrance to the building during the hours the gym offered childcare for kids under 7 just to say and shout disgusting things to many of the gym's members coming or going with small children in tow - and sometimes these men who wanted to be seen as women would follow us into the elevator for the fun of using their towering male bodies and male aggressiveness to menace women up close and personal in a small, enclosed space.

*Back then, these men were known as transvestites, or TV males, but today would be considered "transgender" or "transwomen." But whatever they were called, they were horrible, abusive, entitled men full of rage and hate for women who happened to be gay. And they were tough as nails, the kinds of guys who kept razor blades in their wigs/weaves and carried knives and were quick to lash out physically if someone gave them side-eye. It was quite common to seem them coming to blows with one another out in public.

Sorry, as someone who has been close friends and at close quarters to a lot of gay men for 50 years, I don't think it's fair to suggest that they are less entitled than heterosexual men. Most gay men are incredibly entitled coz they're all socialized as males - which is one of the reasons they were so effective in articulating their anger and mobilizing on their own behalf during the AIDS crisis (with the help, of course, of a lot of other people like me).

Moreover, most gay TIMs are incredibly narcissistic and arrogant, particularly nowadays. They are just as likely to use their male bodies and male entitlement to try to dominate and intimidate girls and women, and to take up too much room and behave like colonizers in female spaces. Look at the way gay TIMs like CeCe Telfer, Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller have lorded it over girls and women in the girls' and women's sports they took it upon themselves to invade and dominate in. Listen to the awful things they have said about the girls and women they've competed against, particularly the ones who've raised objections to their presence and participation.

For every sweet, non-threatening TIM who is fun to be around and wouldn't hurt a fly and genuinely likes women and has respect for us as human beings like the lovely guy in Breakfast on Pluto, there are many more who are not like that. At all. Especially today.

Also, being homosexual, or working as a drag artist, doesn't magically make any gay males "helpless." Being same-sex attracted does not change one's biology, height, build, grip strength, musculature, speed or whatever. A gay male can much more easily defend himself against a physical attack by another man than a woman of the same height, weight, fitness level and age could. Hands down, no contest. All the gay men I know find equating being gay with being "helpless" to be an offensive stereotype.

Similarly, I think it's dangerous to think that just because men have zero sexual interest in women means this renders them "harmless" to girls and women, and to other males as well. Not all assaults are sexual, and not all crimes are assaults. Gay men have committed all sorts of crimes - muggings, robbery, burglary, fraud, battery, murders - against other members of their own sex and the opposite sex.

[–]SanityIsGC 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The one thing that seems to be throwing a wrench into the works is that a large majority of straight men aren't interesting dating gay TIMs. In the last two days, I have seen three ChangeMyViews OPs on Reddit by straight men stating that straight men are not bigoted for not wanting to date transwomen.

Gay TIMs can't get laws passed forcing men to date them so I wonder how this is going to play out. TIMs can scream all they want about bigotry but throwing accusations is not going to change natural attraction.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Beautifully put. Glad you stand up for yourself and exactly, we gay men are a minority anyway and most "TW" are not gay men but straight heterosexual men. And with concepts like those TIMs who snap photos of themselves in sexualized poses in the women's restrooms is a thing, yeah no, keep 'em out.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you, and thanks for your understanding. A lot of lib guys, likely hetero men, get offended if women say they are uncomfortable around them in certain times. Being in an enclosed space, half naked from the waist down, is one of them.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I've noticed this too. I think the reason why some men get unnerved when they hear women say they'd prefer to have some sanctions and places separated from men, they take it as offense thinking that women are saying that every single man on earth is out to hurt them and that isn't true. It's just that some places where women feel vulnerable, they just want to be safe and I don't think that's something that men should get offended by. It's not that women want to avoid us men in all areas of life, just the places where they are most vulnerable.

Another thing that helped me see this perspective is when I heard so many "what about's" from men who try to turn it and say that women were always trying to barge into men's spaces and when I did look into that, I just didn't see much of that at all. I mean outside of pursuing careers in male dominated spaces like engineering and the military, I wasn't seeing women demanding to be in things like Boy Scouts or going into men's changing rooms and/or restrooms, and so on.

[–]Britishbulldog 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They’ve got to think about other people. I’m personally not uncomfortable with a TW in toilets (so long as they pass- not the blue hair and beard type, to me they seem quite threatening), and in non-competitive, non or semi contact sport I personally would be okay with a TW. But only in non-competitive circumstances.

I am speaking from a privileged viewpoint myself (never been assaulted by men, live in the U.K., so legally have the same rights). I acknowledge this privilege and listen and consider people who have been affected by these issues. Their testimony outlines why men do not belong in women’s spaces. I am against men in women’s spaces as women with past trauma (DV, rape etc) need spaces away from men and this cannot be compromised. It’s not up to me, issues such as this involve the most vulnerable women in society, many are uncomfortable/traumatised by men in their spaces, their say is final.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Right. Essentially it's about how most women feel and something tells me that there are a lot more women who are bothered by TIMs in their restrooms and sports but are too afraid to speak out so they stay quiet.

[–]aloris342 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Exactly. When girls who speak out are publicly smeared as bigots, then how can we believe that subsequent surveys of girls' opinions or needs will produce accurate results?

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. That's why those so called surveys of how "most women are okay with Transwomen in their spaces" is not accurate because look at what happens to women who do speak out against the ideology or admit they don't feel comfortable with TIMs in their spaces. They get vilified, ridiculed, and harassed. Of course no every day woman wants to get that treatment but deep down they know how they feel even if they don't want to outright say it unless something truly pushes them over the edge. Like how Laverne Cox blamed black women for why black men don't want to sleep with and/or have relationships with them (black trans identified men), that really was the last straw for a lot of black women on that website Lipstick Alley.