all 15 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 24 insightful - 2 fun24 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I told him that “being” a woman takes a lot of WORK, that his zero-effort bachelor lifestyle is OK for a man but won't cut it for a woman. But he seems to think that a woman is just something that you “are” if you think you are. When I tried to tell him that being a woman is harder than it looks, he didn’t seem to understand.

I imagined TIMs as people who understand women and want to put in the work to become one.

I’m not saying that housekeeping and grooming make women women, but the expectations are so much higher. Repressively so. How can someone who lives in filth say he “feels like a woman?” What does he even think a woman is? What level of success does he even expect to have as a fat smelly TIM?

Welcome to the summit. But sorry, I think you are coming at this situation from the wrong angle.

In fact, a woman IS "just something you are" if you meet three simple criteria: you are a female human being age 18 or above. A woman is an adult human female.

To be a woman requires no "work." Being a woman doesn't meeting certain grooming, hygiene or housekeeping standards. It means being an adult human female. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are many women in the world who could be described as you describe this man who disgusts you: fat, smelly, slovenly, unkempt, with stained teeth, bad skin, dandruff, who live in filthy conditions. Some of them live this way because they are desperately poor in extremely impoverished countries, or they are stateless refugees like the Rohingya, and they have no choice but to live in huts, tents or shanties with dirt floors, no plumbing or electricity - and they have been beaten & beaten down all their lives.

Some women in wealthy countries are as slovenly and live in as much filth as the man you describe because they've been beaten down by life in different ways and they are mentally ill. You can get a glimpse into their lives by watching such USA television shows as Hoarders: Buried Alive.

Some women in wealthy countries like the USA live this way because they were born intellectually disabled and have no family to care for them and they have fallen through the cracks of what little social safety net there is in the US. (excuse the mixed metaphors) Some women live this way coz as they've grown elderly, they have become both physically disabled and intellectually disabled due to dementia - and again, in the US there is no social care system for them.

Again, a woman is simply an adult human female. Women who do not meet the grooming, hygiene and housekeeping standards that some other women hold dear are still as much women as women who spend oodles of time, money and energy on presenting a polished personal image and a picture of the perfectly-kept domicile to the world.

[–]copenseethe 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Some people live like slobs because they are lazy. I know I do, anyway.

[–]Femaleisnthateful 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I get what you're saying, but I assume she's referring to the process of medical transition and actually 'passing', which of course is no longer a requirement. Being a 'woman' is now something you simply self-declare.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As we both know, the idea that

Being a 'woman' is now something you simply self-declare

Is a frequent claim of gender ideology proponents. But OP is expressing, and siding with, another key claim that genderists often make: that being a woman is all about adhering to superficial grooming, dress & behavior standards that are rooted in, reflect and reinforce, regressive, sexist sex stereotypes and roles. And that as such, being a woman is something a man can achieve so long as he puts in enough "work" to ape in appearance and lifestyle the sexist sex stereotypes that gender ideologues associate with, and foist upon, girls and women.

According to the values that OP is putting forward, male adults like Blaire White and Gigi Gorgeous have more legitimate grounds to call themselves and be regarded as women than hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, of female adults do. Coz such sexist adult males

understand women [are nothing but a bunch of superficial sex stereotypes] and want to put in the work to become one.

This is a genderist and misogynistic view, not a "gender critical" one. It's also a view that's personally insulting to me, most of the women I know, and many of the women who read and post on this sub.

[–]Doberlady[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is a genderist and misogynistic view, not a "gender critical" one. It's also a view that's personally insulting to me, most of the women I know, and many of the women who read and post on this sub.

Exactly, and I agree with you. Sorry I didn't make myself clearer on this. It's unfair and those stereotypes need to go away. But hating those rules doesn't make them go away. It's tough out there for us women because of the genderist and misogynistic views that most people in the world around us have. Men like the neckbeard I'm talking about are ignorant of feminism and the experience of women growing up and living under those pressures. It's like white people on Facebook complaining about how privileged they think black people are. So ignorant about the black experience, yet these white assholes think they know everything and want to believe that racism conveniently doesn't exist. Likewise, some men are willfully ignorant of the negative effects of sexism and their own lifelong patriarchal privileges, even if they "think" they're women.

[–]Doberlady[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I know exactly what you're talking about and that's part of the reason I'm so mad about this. I hate societal pressures on women and how they exist to help men control and infantilize them. But just because I don't like the rules doesn't mean they're not there. If a man wants to "be" a woman, they're suddenly going to become subject to those rules and I don't think men understand how much pressure they'll be under. Of course they don't, because they weren't socialized as women, under that pressure from birth.

And it pisses me off. I'm jealous that TIMs think they can have it so easy. My whole life I feel like I’ve been denied the right to feel like a woman because I’m fat and unattractive and because of patriarchal pressures that dictate that women don't exist if they're not fuckable. I’ve been spending a lifetime struggling to perform to the standards of femininity while also questioning them with feminism, thinking about all the complexities of being a woman, trying to separate the shackles of the patriarchy from what womanhood really is, Etc… Then this dude who’s as far from “ladylike” as you can get thinks he can just jump the queue with zero effort and just be a woman, just like that? No effort, no intellectual understanding required? No pressures? Just declare you’re a woman and voila!, that’s all there is to it? It makes me so mad the more I think about it. I just wanna scream in his pimply face, "WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!"

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Welcome to peak trans. Hope you enjoy watching trainwrecks.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Hope you enjoy watching trainwrecks.

That's... actually quite accurate how it feels to peak. Well done.

[–]our_team_is_winning 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Your vivid description of him is something I could SMELL!

I have only ever met one gay slob in my life. All the other gay men I'd been friends with over the years had fit the stereotype of being clean, neat, and orderly to the point of obsession. Then I became friends with a gay coworker who looked like he lived in his car and had never showered. Hard to say if he stank of body odor because he smoked, so that was all I could smell. Thoughtful, sensitve guy though, and happily male.

I wonder if the ginger neckbeard here (that word neckbeard always cracks me up) just saw something online that made him think he could land a guy if he dressed up like a woman? It sounds like he has serious self-esteem issues. He needs to get his weight down and literally clean up his act. That sounds like the priority here.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I wonder if the ginger neckbeard here (that word neckbeard always cracks me up) just saw something online that made him think he could land a guy if he dressed up like a woman?

It's either incel to transcel pipeline or anime porn addiction. Rare to see a gay male take those routes though.

[–]Doberlady[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It sounds like he has serious self-esteem issues. He needs to get his weight down and literally clean up his act. That sounds like the priority here.

Yeah but those involve putting in some actual effort. Growing out your greasy hair and putting on a dress doesn't.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve seen people refer to it as an “incel to TRA pipeline”

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Forget being male, he doesn't even pass as a civilised human in the first place.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He hasn't tried transitioning yet, but I don't know if that's because he's too lazy to do anything to change or because he realized he was wrong. Either way, he hasn't admitted anything.

Just food for thought, usually many transgender people will spend anywhere from a few months to several years debating with themselves whether or not their suspected identity is actually accurate for their situation. I can imagine that if they have not done anything thus far, they may simply be sorting through their emotions/background to figure out if there is some other explanation for this desire before taking more serious action. They could also be trying out cross-dressing little by little in their own privacy to again verify if this is something they truly need.

white morbidly obese middle aged gay neckbeard ginger gamer. A living stereotype. He [demonstrates a long list of self-neglect that could be a symptom of depression]

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the following theory:

Self-neglect like what you describe could be a symptom of depression. If dysphoria is causing this depression, maybe transitioning will slowly help alleviate that depression, and then without that influence will better be able to take better care of themselves and become the very kind of hard-working TIM you previously respected.

Overcoming depression, whatever the source, will require understanding the source of that depression and working on oneself. Gender identity-based dysphoria may just be one possible explanation they are exploring.

I completely agree with your disgust, even having been that exact same living stereotype at one point in time.

[–]Doberlady[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for offering another perspective. I've known this guy for a very long time. He had abusive, neglectful parents and other problems on top of his gender and sexuality issues. I get what you're saying and I reckon it's possible that his depression is a result of discomfort with his gender identity, but he's been a lazy neckbeard for a long, long time. It would be a good thing if becoming a woman would transform him into a better person, but I doubt that that would happen. I'd love it if he proved me wrong, though.