all 13 comments

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

CAIS is an intersex disorder that only affects males.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Oh, for goodness sake, how many times are you going to bring CAIS up? You've got explained this condition plenty of times already. And how many times do you need to be told that trans have nothing to do with intersex? Most trans identified people don't have any sort of DSD and only like to use people with such conditions as gotcha.

[–]HangingWithMyNothing 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

But I want a direct answer, are CAIS male or female? No beating around the bush. The answer is either, 1) male, or 2) female. Which one is it? Reminder that CAIS have testes.

Also, this has a lot to do with "trans". If CAIS are male who think they are women and get in women's spaces just because they think they are women, it means "identifying" as a woman somehow makes a man a woman, and non-intersex men will use it too to get in women's spaces.

If CAIS are men, I'm never going to let them anywhere close to me or other women in our space. And I'm never going to use she/her on them. They should get the same treatment as non-intersex men who think they are women. A disorder shouldn't be put on a pedestal, enough said.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You've the answer you're looking for in the very same articles you linked. They are genotypically male who look like women because a lack androgen sensitivity. You couldn't tell they are actually male unless they tell you about it. This has nothing to do with trans issues. A trans identified male neither look nor have the same life experiences than a male with CAIS. Most people with DSD, whether is CAIS or any other condition, are not the ones driving the sex is a spectrum bullshit. It's TRA who are appropriating the struggles of people with DSD for their own nefarious purposes, not unlike what they do with black people or the so called third genders in certain countries (e.g. hijra).

But you have been told this before already. So, why do you keep acting like this sex spectrum bullshit is the fault of people with CAIS or any other DSD? I repeat, most trans identified individual don't have any sort of DSD.

[–]HangingWithMyNothing 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So CAIS are males? As I said, if they are males they should not be called "woman", "female" or "she/her". The reason they are "raised as girls" is because doctors surgically remove their testes in infancy most times. Doesn't change the fact they are male. Males with CAIS "identifying" as women because they somehow "look like women", wear dresses, put on make up, and have mutilated body parts doesn't change the fact they are males. They are males with cut off testes who "look like women". And if I think someone is a female, only to learn they are a male with CAIS, I will 1- feel lied to, and 2- stop ever using "she/her" on him. I'd use he/him and treat him as the man he is no matter how much he "passes", just like a non-intersex man who "passes" isn't a woman, even if you think that's a woman you're looking at or talking to at first. If someone cuts the dick of a boy, brainwashes him into thinking he's a girl, and the boy grows up to surgically mutilate himself in a way he "passes" as a woman, to the point you wouldn't know it's a man unless he tells you so, does it mean he's a woman? Heck no. How about dropping the hypocrisy and treating CAIS as the men they actually are, hmm?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How about actually reading on CAIS and sex development rather than made things up?

[–]HangingWithMyNothing 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Meh. If they are males, no matter how much they "look like women" they are males and should be treated as such. No more reading necessary.

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

CAIS is not usually obvious from birth because affected babies have female genitals, including a vagina and labia (folds of skin either side of the vaginal opening)

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They are genetically male, socially female imo. They are the only kind of people who can claim this.

[–]HangingWithMyNothing 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If there is no such thing as being "socially female" then no, CAIS are not "socially female" and aren't some exception that can claim they are "socially female". Intersex are either male or female. An intersex male who thinks he's a woman doesn't get to be considered a woman, or invade women's spaces.

CAIS aren't special. You don't get to make people think CAIS are female when they aren't. Unless you want to open the door to the TRAs generally wanting to be "socially female" too, because apparently all it takes to be a female is "identifying" as female, and being thought of as a female by society because of your stereotypical roles, clothing, make up, disorders and surgically mutilated body parts, am I right /s

Either count all men, even non-intersex ones who think they are women, as "socially female" or drop it and do not consider any man, even the intersex ones, "socially female" because "identity" =/= sex.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

because apparently all it takes to be a female is "identifying" as female, and being thought of as a female by society because of your stereotypical roles, clothing, make up, disorders and surgically mutilated body parts, am I right /s

Um, no. It takes a diagnosable medical condition that renders one completely, phenotypically "female" despite having male chromosomes. Something no trans male person can claim.

And I am open to other suggestions for what to call them. Since they appear to be female, are usually raised as female, in most cases have the outward biological organs of female... it's not at all the same as being trans. Even their parents and siblings are likely to consider them female. It's not about their "identity", I think it should be irrelevant what "gender" they think of themselves as - how are they "assigned" at birth? Genuinely don't know this, but I'm assuming that unless there's an obvious problem and genetic testing is done: they're identified as female. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that, but without invoking anyone's feelings cause I don't give a shit.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I have read CAIS individuals do not have ovaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Physical

The gonads in these women are not ovaries, but instead, are testes; during the embryonic stage of development, testes form in an androgen-independent process that occurs due to the influence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Immature sperm cells in the testes do not mature past an early stage, as sensitivity to androgens is required in order for spermatogenesis to complete

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/

Girls with CAIS do not have a womb or ovaries

If CAIS individuals do not have ovaries, and have testes or penises instead, as said above, they are not girls, women, or female. They are boys, men or male.

They happen to "pass as" women on the outside. But they are not female.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are genetically male, correct. If they have penises, they are 100% male, and I don't think that's even CAIS any longer.

Them not having ovaries is irrelevant. How they should be accepted socially should be based on the degree to which they resemble women, externally. If a particular individual would rather be known as male despite having some form of vagina(usually shallow or disconnected) I don't care, that's his problem. It's women's spaces that need to be kept free of men with penises or the clear appearance of being men. Really, it comes down to how a doctor 'identified(accurate in these cases)' them at birth. That is their sex, for all practical purposes.

Why are you arguing about these trivial edge cases? This has nothing to do with transgenderism.