Male Puberty and the loss of childhood innocence, AGP non-sexual motivation.

submitted by TRapostate from self.GenderCritical

I think there is another source for the desire to transition that is powerful and not stemming from the sex drive, and that it is this source that really causes "dysphoria" in these people.

when were young boys, we were accustomed to being liked and doted on by women, being called cute, etc. it's a nice feeling, to feel that no one thinks you threatening, to feel gentle and kind and "pure". there are many liberties a man must give up as he goes through the change to manhood. he must relearn how to interact with people again, he has to learn to take into account his effect on others, how he must not act in any way that is "weird", else he risks creeping people out and experiencing social consequences. i think this change of roles is almost traumatic for many men. i think it creates a psychological wound that gets re-opened if the man ever considers transitioning. beyond sexual motivations, he wants that feeling of harmlessness, of being liked, of social liberty like he felt when he was a young boy.

when he thinks he is female, he begins to try and un-repress himself, psychologically embracing and surrendering to his unconscious anima; his unacceptable, "feminine" traits and desires that he had to shut away. it seems to him as if he can opt-out of what he didn't want from his masculinity, and opt-in to the roles and relationship structures he once was able to occupy as a child.

i think that's what creates the narcissism you ladies talk about so often. their own self is their only justification, so even if they weren't temperamentally all that narcissistic before, the burden of sustaining this identity will make them one. like a true narcissist, who cannot accept to see himself in any negative light, or else his illusion is destroyed and he is forced to face his many years of wrongdoing and delusional attitudes. the AGP-trans-identity has this same weakness, if the identity isn't true, then logically the only other explanation is that you're just a gross, perverted, confused, and manipulated cult member. on top of that you no longer have a mandate to indulge your emotional "needs" of occupying the child-like social role you desire for yourself. they live every day whether they admit or not, mentally existing on that knife's edge. that amount of strain on the ego is difficult for most people to deal with i think.

In a more gender-neutral world like the one GC's would like, there would be less shaming of men's feminine traits, and less stringent rules on how men and women may live among one another generally. perhaps in an environment like that, there wouldn't be such an energy source in the minds of these men for the siren's call of transgenderism to draw its strength from.

i think all transgender-identified people, whether originally boys or girls, whether AGP, HSTS, or any other kind, can relate to that. that feeling of yearning to be free, to express yourself completely authentically. to not be encumbered by the boundaries by which we are all forced to conform to.

when this source of yearning is mixed with the frustrated sexual yearnings of the AGP, it creates an extremely potent psychological mirage. not only can he finally understand why he's so odd, he sees a path to transform from an unlovable weirdo, with a disgusting un-satisfiable and self-destructive habit, to someone who could live out their fantasy while being celebrated and loved.

i think maybe these times will be seen as an example of human hubris and naivete, the very next generation after two thousand years of Abrahamic tyranny goes a little to far in the other direction....

sigh... all we had to do was teach kids how fetishes work and what porn does to you.
maybe if i hadn't feared so terribly that i might grow up to be gay i would have dealt with it better.. god, i feel like such a cringelord for being this way....

for a time i wondered if AGP traits were another expression of whatever underlies masochism in men. that to some degree, it was natural to crossdress if you're masochistic, that they are related in that both could plausibly be explained as partially left-over feminine traits in the brain from utero. but now i just think that agp is caused by being masochistic and having a cultural attitude towards it being shameful to be feminine as a boy. it was probably the shame and embarrassment i felt when being dressed up against my will those couple of times as a kid that got it started... however it got going though, it's just layers and layers of mistrained sexuality, fantasy, an eternally frustrated sex-drive that never learned to go to the correct place.

i used to have a liberal attitude toward porn, i scoffed at the idea it would influence a person so much.... but knowing what i know now, in part thanks to you GC'ers, there is no course of action other than to just stop. I'm finally attractive and social enough to pull women, but how could i even seem available to a woman in a state such as this? i would do nothing but let her down. maybe i'll be always masochistic idk, but i can at-least make myself as compatible as possible for the average woman. fuck this disgusting fetish/sexuality/paraphillia/whatever it's nothing but disgraceful. i hate it. fuck these bastards that go around reddit and other places and make it seem like it's some unchangeable characteristic/unique orientation that must be "managed" incase the desires go overboard late in life and you go full transgender.. like what kind of logic is that? just because Blanchard's concessions to extreme AGP's? i bet he doesn't even really believe what he says about that... they just don't want to think there is something about themselves they should change. it is changeable and there is pretty much no reason not to change it as much as you can.

PS: i think masochism might be a vestigial sexual drive from infancy toward a female caretaker figure. it would make sense to me that something like that could morph into attraction toward submissive fantasies or being dominated by a woman. like in your brain, it associates being overwhelmed by a powerful female presence to sex somehow. and there is a large overlap between AGP's and Diaper fetishists. and now that new thing the zoomers are into the "mommy dom". most of the time when boys are crossdressed against their will, it's female family members doing it for fun. just saying... maybe it's all different ways of being the baby again.

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[–]FlippyKing 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think you idea has anything to do with AGP. AGP is obviously real, and the sexual/masturbatory aspect of it is the key component. What you are describing, if it exists and is not just a rationalization for some other root cause, is separate from AGP and attempts to define a different population of trans identified males. How big that population is matters, because finding trans identified males who are best understood by your idea depends on that population. If it is a very small population, then your idea will be indistinguishable from more implausible ideas.

Your idea seems to hinge on this: "we were accustomed to being liked and doted on by women, being called cute, etc. it's a nice feeling, to feel that no one thinks you threatening, to feel gentle and kind and 'pure'."

We were? Often? By over bearing elderly relatives who kissed us and sent us on our way, where the whole transaction was about 1 minute? The same can be said more strongly for girls before adolescence, who once they hit puberty are sexualized where we're hoping they were not sexualized before adolescence. Once they are treated differently, do they exhibit some kind strategy to avoid that in a way that is analogous to trans identified males? Trans identified females seem to be dealing with this phenomena by switching sides, which is analogous to half a group that is the bully's usual victims switching to the bully's side to avoid being bullied. Maybe it's more than analogous.

But I think not all boys are treated like that except on rare occasions. It's not something most boys consider the normal state of their childhood. Maybe it is a cultural thing. I've seen some groups treating their young boys like precious little princes talking about how pretty they were, and it struck me as odd. It might also have something to do with birth order. Maybe the youngest in a big family is treated as precious because the parent sees, as the older kids who grow up and away, this as the last little one they'll have. But many boys do not experience that at all.

If your idea is right for some trans identified males, clearly not for agps though, and it is a psychological thing: why would the male decide switching sides was an option, as opposed to just wanting to play with the same toys they played with and acting like they did when they younger? Also, how does this make sense that they were treated one way as young boys and to be treated the same way they decided they are girls or at least lie and only make the claim they are girls? Most boys deal with being seen as a threat once they reach puberty, and start growing and start dealing with increased testosterone in their system, by wearing it loudly even if they are still scrawny and not all that big and still baby-faced. Those that are not seen as threatening retreat into other behaviors, either productive or self-destructive. Or, they just find ways of hiding until one day the might realize they grew up physically and hopefully emotionally but that usually has a lot of catching up to do.

It is an acknowledged aspect of most societies that the boys who become old enough to send into battle are treated as potentially dangerous, both in part because they are but also because they will be pushed into doing the societies' dirty work. Mose Allison's (especially as sung by The Who) Young Man Blues expresses it pretty well actually. How much of young men's behavior is playing the role society asks of them is measurable in how different cultures' adolescent boys behave, and it is very different.

I think at best the population of boys you are talking about might be a subset of specific cultures, might have a little to do with birth order and family size, but I don't really see the mechanism of how you go from little boy doted over by women to deciding to sing Helen Reddy's I Am Woman unironically.

edited for grammar and syntax (I think)

[–]TRapostate[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

but I don't really see the mechanism of how you go from little boy doted over by women to deciding to sing Helen Reddy's I Am Woman unironically.

Because if you have AGP, and then go on to be exposed to transgender ideology, you see before you the option of changing sides. once that happens, you imagine actually living as the opposite sex, and socializing with girls as a girl. when you imagine the set of socially acceptable activities you would then newly have access to, it plays on that prior psychological loss. i'm just saying it's one of the possible motivations or incentives to transition.

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess, but you have to not just "see" transgender ideology, but consider it reasonable-- or realize it is all one big lie but want to join in on the "fun" it seems to be.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

beyond sexual motivations, he wants that feeling of harmlessness, of being liked, of social liberty like he felt when he was a young boy.

I'm male too, and I object to this strongly. Males have so much social liberty -- including the liberty to call themselves women. Males wouldn't be transitioning if the didn't have this social liberty.

and there is a large overlap between AGP's and Diaper fetishists.

I'd say there is a larger overlap between HSTS and ABDL fetishists, based on my own experiences.

[–]TRapostate[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it's not really about comparing who gets to do what, it's about the loss of what once was had. and even in progressive areas, you don't get all those liberties until you renounce your manhood essentially. but i think you could say, going transgender as a male lets you have your cake and eat it too, in that way of retaining the power of a man while wanting the concessions that actual women receive.

[–]Chocolatepudding 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting proposition, you would have to discuss it with trans women/AGPers or look for evidence of it in their own writing to move beyond a theory. But imo it seems at least plausible

[–]WildApples 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I find your idea of the transition that takes place during puberty for boys very insightful. I have not thought much about what it might be like to suddenly go from cute, universally adored kid to a potentially intimidating man's body before your brain really has time to catch up. I can see how the sudden, perceived withdrawal of affection from adults could be traumatic. The idea that particularly traumatized boys might be subconsciously driven to trans ideology by a desire to regain that feeling of affection is intriguing. If you ever find more data points to illustrate the theory, I would be curious to hear more.

[–]TRapostate[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

thanks i like how you re-put it.

i dont got any data, just i can remember feeling it myself. i've read many accounts from transgender people on the internet and a common theme is a sort of "gender euphoria" that atleast claimed to be non-sexual. i think it is true for many of them, that they will get an emotional high from feeling like they are reclaiming the right to enjoy old interests and an older set of boundaries with females.

i could see how that would be appealing, i can remember feeling some grief over giving up childhood interests that i was worried would be perceived as too feminine. i can remember feeling grief over what felt like getting kicked out from the clubhouse, being under suspicion at all times, suddenly it was more complex to relate to females.

the loss of once enjoyed activities, almost creates a psychological forbidden fruit.

i think maybe alot of sensitive types are closer to their female relatives when young, and then they might have trouble adapting away from that. if you didn't deal with the pressure to man-up all that well, or atleast if it gave you stress, it creates that contrast in your mind. makes being a kid seem desirable in comparison, or atleast subconsciously it makes you fear the loss of your childhood.

going into a transgender identity is a way to fully vanquish the anxiety of being one-of-those-gross-males. i think it probably has many layers, and what happens is when someone actually thinks it's possible to switch over, the subconcious just rips open all those old seals. and that's what could create gender dysphoria in alot of them. literally re-living the mental "trauma" of changing out of being a kid.

i wonder how many young ones today have had those feelings unnaturally prolonged because of the idea of it being possible to change genders. when i was going through that phase i never even thought changing genders was possible, it was unthinkable to me.

[–]stunaep 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why were you so afraid of turning out gay? Where did the insecurities come from? Your lack of attraction to girls? Did you have admiring thoughts about boys? You said you felt like you wanted to be protected/dominated by a female presence. Did you ever feel that way about a male? And what's the difference in feeling for you, when you imagine being protected/dominated by a female vs a male?

[–]TRapostate[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

from american south, i had been made aware of the existence of gay people somehow, and i knew that it was possible that the person wouldn't know until after puberty had began. so i thought it could happen to me. i thought if i was gay, that i would be rejected by my entire family and subject to social ostracism basically. i didn't even know what sex was at that age, i just knew that everyone seemed to really dislike gay people. i think what got me worried was that i seen everyone else start being attracted toward one another, and i wasnt. i felt like i was missing something. nothing toward boys at all though, except for years later i developed pseudo-bisexual type fantasies of sex with faceless men. but that was really just AGP.

as for the difference between imagining male and female interaction, i would say that the female oriented ones feel more natural, they feel more flexible. seems to be a more intense activity in ways. even though for years at this point it's been less erotic than male oriented. i think maybe what happened was that after using girls as props to enact a roleplay scenario in my imagination for so long, i eventually became conditioned to be aroused by just the roleplay itself. it may be the propensity to be able to be conditioned in that way is a prerequisite for having this happen.

with men it actually took time to get into because i had to become desensitized. at first it was more just the "idea" of it, but eventually this idea become more and more detailed and i got to the point of fully imagining it. it feels more exciting and taboo? it's kind of scary it feels like it could start sustaining itself and taking over.

i have had desires to act on that when i was doing nofap and got super horny a couple days in. but i strongly suspect those would deflate if i was in the presence of an actual person. i don't know maybe if he was clean and did a good performance and got my masochism going.. but i think with a normal looking dude i would probably become too disgusted IRL, plus it feels wrong to do something gay while not even being gay.

lately female involved ones can stir up emotions i've noticed. maybe it's a product of not being so young anymore, but the last time i went in that direction, i was able to shift to thinking about a comparably tame lifestyle situation. like as if i met some girl who took it upon herself to win me over, was kind of bossy and competent, but benevolent and pushy with boundaries. once i got it going, it actually seemed more potent in a way, like it's more realistic than the porn fantasies of years ago.

that experience is what actually inspired me to try and change things actually.. planning to follow that thread to try and shape myself to be more normal. if this ends up being much easier to change than i thought it was... i will feel like such a fool. but at the same time it will be a relief.