Excellent Twitter thread from a man about males taking responsibility for the TiM issue

submitted by FlippyKing from self.GenderCriticalGuys

There's a thread (with no comments yet I think) in the main GC sub here, that refers back to Ovarit which then refers to a tweet thread by some guy about the transwomen/actual women conflict where the guy writing the thread of tweets points out something obvious: this is also our problem in the sense that men are a group or class with collective rights and responsibilities.

OK, I added that last part and probably a lot more than that. But I think that's the crux of it. I don't agree with some of the points he makes, mainly because he accepts the notion that "trans" is some kind of real thing. Though he doesn't specifically say that, he address the idea that transwomen experience a lot of problems from men, and his issue seems to be that women are being asked to accommodate them as they hide from us.

I don't deny men's ability to be violent or harass others and ourselves. I want to think about the specific charge, that we're harassing transwomen, and look at it in the context of other claims made by trans activists. We're also to believe that women are violent against transwomen and that "literal violence" and wishing them dead and all sorts of horrible things are done by "terfs" against transwomen who just want to pee. We know that's all bullshit. So, how much violence are we doing to transwomen might be worth thinking about.

I've seen a guy dressed as a women in a public bathroom. I assumed he was going to a costume party. It was in a big exceptionally-woke city and it is a place that seems to be the go-to public bathroom in that very busy neighborhood. I can only think of the one instance. No one said a word to him, as that's how men's bathrooms work. I remember talking to a woman about how restrooms are used, and I was surprised how much more things happen in a women's room than in a men's room. She was shocked that there was no eye contact or talking or anything. I don't know if she is the exception or describing it wrongly, but regardless: I don't see any harassment of men in dresses in mens rooms, regardless of their how they see their own gender. Gender has never come up in a men's room.

Similarly I remember seeing a women in a men's room, and a dude did complain saying she should be in the other room. She said the line was too long, and that was the end of it. The guy might have mumbled, but nothing happened. She didn't need to continue talking to him and she got on with her business.

I do not personally know of any violence in any situation against transwomen, and the instances we read about are often crazy stories that do not appear to be bias incidents. The murders of transwomen that was made a big deal over a few years ago, well the incidents do not support the conclusion. The vast majority were part of other crazy events: drug deals, or where the transwoman initiated the violence. The other group of murders involve prostitution, which is its own mode of violence. How can it be known if those events were any different than all the other times guys get violent when they use prositutes-- and this is a massive problem guys have to deal with. Violence against women, and violence against prostitutes as a separate problem from the problems of prostitution in and of themselves, needs to be addressed. I think it is a hold over from the idea of women as property, which I think predates the commodification of women.

I just don't see this violence against transwomen. I can see where someone with real gender dysphoria (which needs to be called sex dysphoria as that's what they are dysphoric about) having all kinds of triggering and fears and problems that they project onto every guy in a mens room. But feeling attacked is not being attacked, and drawing attention to one's self based on how one appears is not an attack. No one pays any attention to each other in a mens room other than to make sure we're not cutting in line and we're keeping our personal space around us as much as can be done and we're looking out for our own safety like in every other situation. Nothing new, and I don't see any of this as anything we can do about to accommodate transwomen.

Finally I differ with the thread's author on the notion that there is a single or unified "transwoman", where accommodations can be made. I think there are those with gender dysphoria and the need help as they have a mental illness, but we do not restructure the world around the mentally ill. There are also fetishists of various degrees, we do not restructure the world around them. There are also "It's MA'AM!" variety or the Yaniv's of the world who seem to seek trouble. The simple fact seems to me that if men were really harassing transwomen, these individuals would have a lot more black eyes (well, maybe not "It's MA'AM" as that dude seemed pretty large and crazy). No. The Yaniv's of the world seem to steer clearn of men, are not harassed by men, and are busy harassing women.

So, I don't see it. If there is something we need to do, it is to call out dudes who are harassing women, or transwomen if we see it happening, but not as a 'white knight' and maybe not wait till things get so out of hand. I think a lot of times guys do not step in because we have a sense that it is none of our business (and often it's not) and also because we see a line where something either requires intervention or does not. Our sense of that line will differ greatly but more over it will differ from person feeling they are being harassed.

I don't know that my views on this are shared commonly, but I did think seeing this discussed elsewhere that it should at least get a placeholder here for discussion.

Thoughts?

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[–]NotYerWorthlessWurm 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ive never seen transwomen get harassed by men anywhere but frat rows or other places full of immature drunks. Immature drunks go after anyone that looks like an easy target.

I think theres some collective responsibility on part of the public schools for excusing a hostile environment towards unathletic or nerdy or non hypermasculine boys. Traumatic formative experiences last a long time...they dont self heal, brain plasticity decreases, could lead to more boys wanting to be girls to escape psychological pain from having a personality outside of sports and hooking up.

(thats not the fault of men-as-collective, thats drunk idiots being drunk idiots and the school system being a fail)

[–]FlippyKing[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Excellent point! I hadn't considered the idea of healing and brain plasticity in this context but you are very much on the mark here. I think the effects of that grade school and high school dynamic are massive problems in our society.

I also think the way any place that is not a major city or regional hub looses people who go on to improve their lives to the the extent the systems fed by our education leads people to move away to pursue careers leaves a cycle that can not be addressed if people are always leaving their home towns. That is not to say the people left behind are all the bullies and those leaving are the victims, but it makes for an imbalance that no community was ever meant to have. That is a separate issue though from the one you raise. I also think the anti-bullying things in school are done in such authoritarian and Orwellian ways that it should be laughable if it didn't create more problems.

Schools, and specifically most public schools, are primarily places where authority sorts out and rewards those who submit to authority by perceived talent levels and leaves the rest to become failed rebels or class clowns or drug addicts. Maybe most is too kind because judging by the way most schools appear now, it looks to me like those who run things have no more use for the vast majority.

[–]jjdub7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think theres some collective responsibility on part of the public schools for excusing a hostile environment towards unathletic or nerdy or non hypermasculine boys.

YES, this! I had a childhood friend who TiM'd out post-secondary, and I'm convinced that this was 100% the cause.

[–]3MistersAndAMissy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you. This was a wonderful read!!!

[–]FlippyKing[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks. What are your thoughts on any of it?

[–]3MistersAndAMissy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can’t say if men would harass a TW in the restroom since I’m a woman, but you can actually give insight.

The focus is all about acting like it is a given that a transwoman would be in danger in the men’s restroom, but why are we letting them make that an undeniable given?

You are questioning the basic premise. Many of us let the TRAs get away with setting that in place as fact.

They keep saying they just want to pee and it never happens that it’s unsafe to let men self ID into the ladies room. They ask for proof it’s not safe for women.

Make them give proof it’s unsafe for TW to use the bathroom of their sex.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for commenting! While reading your comment, I was just thinking about what such harassment would look like and somehow I started considering the Borat movie (not the new thing but the old movie). He had to push people pretty far, and shoot a lot of film/video to get people to react and I don't think people reacted violently. I think the same can be said for Bruno which might be a better example. Maybe neither are great comparisons because they are being provocateurs and supposedly the trans people wanting to pee are not.

I have to fall back on the simple fact that no one is paying that much attention to each other in men's rooms and I don't see this as a real problem as they claim. What would the problem be? Would it be like the woman in a men's room I described above where after a few empty words nothing came of it? IN that case the guy was trying to enforce sex-segregated space, and he desisted perhaps upon realizing how anti-chivalrous he was being-- not the best term maybe but just what was he going to do to get her out of the room? nothing, hopefully, or maybe he just accepted the line being too long. So when a trans identified male walks into a men's room he either is perceived as a man in a dress so then he is where he belongs or he is perceived as a woman where the rule of not hitting women should rule the day. The more I think about it, and I think I'm done thinking about it, the less I see it as a reasonable assumption to make. I have to conclude that violence against trans identified males in bathrooms is not a real-world problem. Maybe in high school, but I doubt it. I think it is just an attempt to gain sympathy.