"Male rape"

submitted by FlippyKing from self.GenderCriticalGuys

In the main GC sub there is a post about some TV show I have never heard of where apparently a scene has people trigged. A woman is on top of a guy having sex and the woman apparently won't get off him and he comes inside her, and this is either portrayed as rape or considered rape by the people triggered by it. Sorry for that bit of vagueness.

I think we have rightfully placed rape as a crime right there as bad as murder, either worse or just slightly less worse. Some might find calling it worse to be hyperbole, but how bad of a crime it is can't really be overstated in spite of that. I think it is a violation that often breaks a woman emotionally, it is not just violent but a profound use of violence against bodily integrity that makes sharing their body difficult again. With that in mind, and the severity of the crime and the severity of the violation in mind, can a woman really rape a man (not a boy which maybe is a different question worth asking, but a man), and did the scene really portray a rape? I expect to be tied to a horse and sent out of the town to die for this thought, but I think it is not. I can think of a range of ways a guy can be "violated" or taken advantage of by a women, but I have a hard time seeing any of that as rape. I know of my share of instances when guys I know can honestly complain about "what that B#&#& did to me" but none of it is rape.

I have thought about this before I saw the post in the main GC sub, and I think rape as a violent act is specifically something only a male can do, at least to another adult. I don't want to drift into the idea of questioning if some act was "really" rape, and I don't want to weaken any definition of it. If anything I think I am trying to strengthen the definition and I want to avoid it becoming a meaningless word, along these lines: she did not rape him, that makes a mockery of the word and dilutes the meaning of the word and violence it invokes. Rape is a word that should have the potential to cause a shudder, that scene as I understand that should not do that.

Am I the crazy or just wrong here?

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[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Calling that rape would undermine rape that men experience by male perpetrators. as far as I know rape is attempted or completed forced penetration of an unwilling subject. So the woman in the example you gave may have committed a lesser sexual crime, but not rape.

Our pursuit of gender equality shouldn't mean treating men & women exactly the same, but rather appropriately instead. Men & women differ in at least one way: reproductively, which would have it's greatest effects within sexual contexts. Applying an androcentric standard to women is sexist & doesn't do men any favours either (going back to the prison/military male perpetrated rape thing).

Women can still be charged with rape, usually against women, using a foreign object. Just as men forcibly "bottoming" isn't considered rape. So it's not a sexist law.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

well stated! Thanks!

[–]MezozoicGay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That is very weird case. When women are violently raped in TV series and movies without ever asking their consent, it seems to be fine for some reason, but when something slightly not completely consented happening with a man - whole internet is up and screaming.

In those series it was consensual sex there. He lied to her that he is sterile, while she wanted kids. Instead he was pulling out before finishing to not get her pregnant. When she learned this and she learned how sex and reproduction works (she was very naive and young, never had sex and had no idea how anything works and she did not even know how women can get pregnant, when married him), she decided to try make him finish inside her. So she topped him and he was not able to finish not inside her, without being too obvious that he was lying. She did not even get pregnante there. And whole point of that scene was to show the moment in her life when she realized that even closest people around her are liars and that she should stop being helpless victim and should start taking what she want, ignoring other people's wishes - just like they doing with her. And he is around 30 cm taller than she is.

So he was able to put her from top of him, but for one reason or another decided not to. And after scene he was just ashamed, and sad that she now know the secret.

In book version there was much worse situation - he came home drunk and she used the situation to have sex with him and to overpower him, after the act he felt himself broken and used, and had light mental problems afterwards, which weren't present in TV adaptation. I can't really call it rape in TV adaptation, as everything was consensual, and he just not wanted his lies to be dispelled.

I can think of a range of ways a guy can be "violated" or taken advantage of by a women, but I have a hard time seeing any of that as rape. I know of my share of instances when guys I know can honestly complain about "what that B#&#& did to me" but none of it is rape.

In our country law about rape is considering rape as any sexual intercourse with using genitals without consent, so forced sucking a penis, penetration with any item, or even forced licking vulva will be considered as rape actions. Making woman pregnant, or doing rape with violence or with using official position, or if rapist is related in any way to victim (husband, relative, friends) will double prison term or prison term will be maximum one. Repeated rape may end with lifelong sentence. Same with any sexual offense against minors.

Even with such law at some years we have 0 women rapists.

I would consider man raping woman bigger offense, as she can get pregnant, and damage to her body (and most likely mental health) is bigger as well.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think in any of these blow-ups over movies books or tv shows the nuance of the story telling and the purpose these events serve in the story telling is always lost and often on purpose. I didn't see it or read it, but if the lesson she is supposed to learn is to just ignore everyone's wishes then that seems short sighted-- I sort of doubt that's actually the writer's idea. He should learn that his lie has consequences, but he might not be the character on a journey.

I always try to consider law and legal ramifications separate from general discussions in that I don't think a legal standard should be the same as an every-day understanding of things, and I think that because I an doubtful of a government's ability to prosecute issues in a fair manner. I don't think we can or should expect government to solve such matters very often without either abusing their power or just worse convicting everyone they want regardless of the circumstance. I realize rape is the worst example of a crime to hold that kind of view on, but my view is based on my opinion of government and prosecutors and judges and not on the nature of the crime. I agree there should be some legal standard dealing with forced sex regardless of the sex of the individuals and if the umbrella term for it is rape then that might work or it might be painting with too broad of a brush-- I can't say which, and it is only my rather 'anarcho-opinion' about it.

I wonder if this has a tinge of chauvinism to it, but the reality of the risk of pregnancy and just the violation of a woman when a man rapes her makes it a serious crime that guys (including me) have not done enough to deal with among ourselves culturally or socially. It's far worsee than what the tv show depicted, and I blame the fictional dude for lying first and foremost. But we would have to change our culture, because calling out when we hear a dude being blatantly misogynistic is clearly not enough even if it happened enough. Along the lines of my previous reasoning, there's a line between correcting and policing. But I think beneath that, the problem is the way women have been viewed as a commodity or viewed as less than a commodity. I think that rape culture might be at the intersection of a lot of dysfunctional aspects of our culture where a lot of bad behaviors and bad ideas converge on some guys where that's the result.

[–]MezozoicGay 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To be honest, shown in TV show I can't even call a rape, as it has very different consequences. Book version sounds like sexual abuse/offense, while TV show one is almost completely showing that man is on the wrong side there - and for some reason internet is defending that man and calling woman as rapist.

First of all, sex was with consent up to very last moment, and even last moment he not tried to do anything as it would show his lies and that he goes all the way to support it.

Second part, when man and woman have sex and woman asking "do not finish inside", but men finishes - it is much worse than if man saying "I would like to not finish inside", but woman insist on doing this. In the end it will be woman who will get pregnant, for man nothing will be changed.

And in current situation it is clash of who you support more - grown up man, who not wanted kids in this marriage, so he lied to young naive girl about fact of being sterile, knowing that she has no idea how babies are made, or support young woman who always wanted kids and was very upset that her husband is sterile, but married him nontheless. And even if they will get kids - she would be the one taking care of them, as during those times in most cases women weren't working and men weren't taking care of kids.

That sex not ended in pregnancy, but even if he did, the dilemma is "one not wanted kids and lied, other wanted kids and tried to make them" - who overpowers who, one who don't want or other who want, and why?

I think that rape culture might be at the intersection of a lot of dysfunctional aspects of our culture where a lot of bad behaviors and bad ideas converge on some guys where that's the result.

Agree here.

It is especially visible in asian cultures, especially Japan, with their huge problem of groping, and how they are treating women and rape there in general. Or in China few decades ago, where women were binding their feet to receive injuries to legs for the whole of their life, because it was believed that feet binding is making vagina more tight and that it will bring more pleasure for their future husbands. Women were forced to do this, and who refused was called bad girl and bad wife, who will die alone.

And visible in fact that clitoris researches only started not that long ago, science was trying to avoid recognizing fact that women can have pleasure during sex as well, and that women have libido at all. Nietzsche was focusing all sexuality and libido through men as well.

So there a lot of different factors, misinformation, misbeliefs and traditions which are factoring in it. In current days there is internet culture that is only multiplying all those factors.

[–]jet199 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Rape is forced penetration not unwanted sex. This goes for both men and women. Lying back and having sex when you don't feel like it might not be a very bad experience but it's nothing like rape. I think some people who've had bad experiences want to pin their bad feelings onto a particular word which let's them see the other person as a monster and 100% responsible and that has mudded the waters.

Now someone like Shia LaBeouf thinks he was raped because he sat there and let a woman jump on his erection without any protest. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/28/shia-labeouf-raped-performance-art-project-dazed

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lying back and having sex when you don't feel like it might not be a very bad experience but it's nothing like rape

It's been argued that this kind of rape can have a cumulative effect (if endured on a regular basis, usually within the context of a LTR), resulting in trauma similar to, or possibly even worse than the stranger-in-the-alley types.

[–]filbs111 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It may meet the definition of "sexual assault" (legalese or English). Generally people these days should in many cases grow a pair about such matters, but I'm not familiar with that scene. Certainly the word "rape" is being diluted. That said, If we define it as requiring forced penetration, a woman wishing to meet that definition might opt to do a man wrong by use of a finger.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Grow a pair" definitely applies to so much if this stuff, but they've found a way to twist it all so that I imagine we'll be saying "no not like that" more often than not.