Is sex determined by chromosomes or phenotype? Are people with CAIS male or female? Doesn't CAIS challenge binary sex?

submitted by IWoreWhat from self.GenderCriticalGuys

People with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome have male chromosomes and a female phenotype.

What is their sex?

That requires an understanding of what determines sex in the first place. Is it chromosomes, or phenotype? If it's chromosomes, then people with CAIS are male, despite having female phenotype.

If it's phenotype, then people with CAIS are female, despite having male chromosomes.

If it's both chromosomes and phenotype, then people with CAIS are male and female at the same time.

Please let me know which one is true.

And also why CAIS does not challenge binary sex?

When people can have variations of primary sex organs, secondary sex organs and chromosomes (which they call intersex), sex becomes a spectrum?

Someone could have undeveloped female sex organs, but developed male sex organs. If sex is a binary, it would be really difficult to determine what their sex is when their sex organs are so mixed.

This person says intersex people are nonbinary, neither man, nor woman, no matter what gametes or genitals they have and are a third sex: https://imgur.com/MERbsgr

Intersex people are where I understand the concept of nonbinary (a third sex). Someone naturally has very atypical hormone levels leading to abnormal secondary sex characteristics, has ambiguous genitals, and appears genuinely androgynous due to an intersex condition? I can completely understand why they feel the most comfortable saying "I don't want to be called a man or a woman", despite what gametes they produce.

Intersex are not male nor female? Just because they think so?

I remember in the wikipedia article on sry + xx males there was mention of xx males that don't have the sry gene too (how are they males then?).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

It says that about 10% of XX males do not have sry.

If sex is a spectrum, intersex and regular people can be some of these things, 1) male, 2) female, 3) more female, less male, 4) more male, less female, 5) neither male nor female, 6) male and female at the same time.

And if sex is a spectrum because of the variation we see for primary sex organs and chromosomes, then if a man takes hormones, removes his sex organs, and a neovagina is implanted in him, he becomes 1) less male, more female, 2) less male, 3) neither male nor female, 4) male and female at the same time.

And if a woman takes hormones, removes her sex organs and a neopenis is implanted in her, she becomes 1) less female, more male, 2) less female, 3) neither male nor female, 4) male and female at the same time.

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[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transgender males are not intersex, they are unambiguously male. Their gonadal sex is male, their chromosomal sex is male, their hormonal sex is male, their anatomical sex is male, their phenotypic sex is male. They are 100% male & 0% female.

Silicon implants are not parts of female anatomy, just as an inverted penis isn't either. A mutilated male body is not less male & certainly not more female. You can't change your sex.

Making cosmetic changes to a male body so that it resembles a female one is appropriation. Changing the definition of female to include male is erasure. Both are sexism.

[–]QuondamPhysics 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Firstly, I need to point out that intersex advocacy organizations have stated repeatedly that they don't appreciate being used as a prop for transgender ideology. Also, the quote in the image in your first link is not quoting an actual intersex person, but just some rando.

Second, intersex conditions are not a third sex, as their condition plays no role in human sexual reproduction, and in any event, one sex is usually more dominant in the majority of cases. Intersex conditions are a disorder and the severity of the disorder depends on multiple factors specific to each case, and treatment should always balance the needs and desires of the patient with the highest possible quality of life that's feasible given the constraints of the disorder.

Sex, therefore, is not a spectrum. It is a biological system, and like any system errors can occur, but errors are not features, and most will reduce the quality of life for the individual, not to mention cause associated comorbidities. Of course, without errors, there would be no beneficial mutations, so it's a flaw we live with.

This does beg the question - are male people who identify as women therefore suffering from a legitimate neurological disorder and require treatment? Quite possibly. People who suffer from bodily dysmorphia have serious symptoms and the condition is not well understood. However considering that most of what constitutes the idea of "womanhood" in the minds of transgender males are actually characteristics more appropriately described as "feminine" - i.e., fancy dresses, shrill voices, cosmetics, etc. - this claim is dubious. Men aren't kept awake at night screaming and punching holes in the wall from the pain of phantom endometriosis. Rather, their consternation arises from how convincingly they've performed femininity to society at large and require constant reassurance, and like many adherents to vague, abstract ideals, become angry and occasionally violent to those who are not true believers as well.

In any event, if a man, as you said, takes hormones, removes his sex organs, and has cosmetic surgery to create a non-functional orifice in his groin (and plain old fashioned brute force to maintain it), he is therefore not becoming more or less female, he is ingesting harmful pharmaceuticals that were originally intended to treat menopause in women (and discontinued due to the high incidence of breast cancer and strokes as a side-effect) and mutilating himself to fulfill an ideal of femininity he has set for himself, and the cosmetic surgery and pharmaceutical industries are only too happy to oblige. There is no more inherent physiological difference between a man who's lopped his bits off and ingests vast quantities of menopause medicine and an average male, than there is between said average male and a double amputee on large doses of pain meds.

Nor are they remotely similar to intersex people, I should add. Ultimately, any medical conditions that the surgically and chemically altered man or woman are suffering from are completely self-inflicted, and the capacity for self-destruction is not a surgical issue, but a psychiatric one.

[–]IWoreWhat[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You didn't answer any of the questions in the post.

You're refusing to answer those questions about intersex, which is why they continue using intersex for their arguments.

[–]QuondamPhysics 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Okay!

What is their sex? Female.

What determines sex, phenotype or chromosomes? Yes.

Why does CAIS not challenge binary sex? Because it has no role in sexual reproduction.

When people can have variations of yadda yadda, sex becomes a spectrum? No.

Intersex are not male or female? You should probably ask them.

How are XX males without SRY? Depends on the individual symptoms of the condition.

Hope that clears things up. :)

EDIT: "You're refusing to answer those questions about intersex, which is why they continue using intersex for their arguments."

Am so!

[–]IWoreWhat[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I apologize, but that was not helpful at all. And this one here:

What determines sex, phenotype or chromosomes? Yes.

Sounds like a "how many x do you want? Yes" meme. Not an actual answer.

How are XX males without SRY males? Depends on the individual symptoms of the condition.

Please explain how, according to those symptoms of conditions.

What is their sex? Female.

Why?

[–]QuondamPhysics 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Yes" is so an actual answer. Both phenotype and chromosomes contribute to the sex of the individual.

As to how XX males without SRY are in fact males, as I said, that depends on how the individual body develops as a result of the disorder. Consulting Wikipedia on the subject, I find that XX males are born with smaller or deformed secondary sex characteristics, many have decreased body hair or gynecomastia, some have decreased libido. All are sterile. However what I'm reading is that each individual develops as a result of their condition differently. As Wiki states, "the degree to which individuals with XX male syndrome develop the male phenotype is variable, even among SRY-positive individuals." Some may develop with an over-abundance of female characteristics. Some may have more male characteristics. An XX male without SRY may develop as a male due to factors we haven't considered or don't understand. It's a matter between the patient and his or her doctor. Arguably they don't have a sex at all.

Short answer: I'd need an M.D. in endocrinology to give that question the consideration it deserves.

As to your apology, no worries! This sub could use more content. :)

EDIT: Q: What is their sex? A: Female. Q: Why? A: Female phenotype. Just because we have 99.3% chimp chromosomes doesn't make us a chimp.

EDIT EDIT: It also depends on how the biological system expresses these genes and how the different organ systems interact with each other. Chromosomes aren't necessarily the blueprint for making a person, they're more like a rough sketch with tons of preliminary artwork. Ultimately the body that is created is the result of the plans being changed on the fly as the result of external conditions. While I'm aware that such an analogy could easily be used as some patchwork justification for the concept of 'gender identity', that entire line of thinking is based on a false premise, that gender identity is based on some sort of biological justification rather than a purely social phenomenon.

I'm legit sorry I can't be more helpful to you. For them to demand complex medical diagnoses regarding endocrinological disorders from laypeople isn't a reasonable position.

[–]FlippyKing 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a GENDER critical sub, perhaps bring your question to those who pursue the issues you've typed, and typed, and typed, all about on your keyboard.

Your questions have nothing to do with the issue of gender.

Sex may be determined a number of ways, depending on what we know of an individual. This is because sex refers to the two and only roles played in sexual reproduction by these body types. There is no such thing as being less female or more female, nor being less male or more male.

You are incorrect when you state that sex is a spectrum. Sex refers to the manner in which nearly every species on the planet reproduces, and that reproduction is conducted via the pairing of the two and only two complimentary sexes, male and female.

As for your last sentence, is it a question? Regardless, a woman who does all you described is mentally ill and has been misled by those around her and is mutilated. None of the options you list as 1 through 4 really matter compared to those elephants in the room: mental illness, misled by those around her, and mutilated.