Saidit MetaWitness the abandonment of Saidit's principles by its own co-founder in the comments of this /s/whatever StoneToss comic post.

submitted by LithargoelKiA Old Guard from self.KotakuInAction

https://saidit.net/s/whatever/comments/4qwe/intelligence_isnt_genetic/

I take absolutely no position on the content of the 6-panel, nor any arguments or critiques with its OP no matter their positions on the topic, other than to point out how quickly Magnora7 drop-kicks his Pyramid of Debate ideals in order to avoid addressing the content and instead resorts to characterization attacks, and twists it back around to demanding that the OP address HIS argument, and accuses OP of changing the topic (which OP did not, Magnora7 himself did).

With the incoming bans and policy changes at Reddit poised to cause a mass exodus and users looking for a neutral platform with ideals of engaging each other instead of attacking and harassing each other, I'm becoming concerned that Saidit may not adhere to its own high standards of debate. The past two or so weeks especially have been eye-opening where lines of narrative are being drawn here by some of its most proliferous users. Keep your head on a swivel.

edit: changed 4-panel to 6-panel

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[–]ClockworkFoolKiA Old Guard 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I take absolutely no position on the content of the 4-panel, nor any arguments or critiques with its OP no matter their positions on the topic, other than to point out how quickly Magnora7 drop-kicks his Pyramid of Debate ideals in order to avoid addressing the content and instead resorts to characterization attacks, and twists it back around to demanding that the OP address HIS argument, and accuses OP of changing the topic (which OP did not, Magnora7 himself did).

Honestly, mostly what I see there is two people determinedly arguing at cross purposes about what exactly they are allowed to argue about in terms of the pyramid of debate.

Mostly what I get out of the exchange is a reaffirmed belief that the concept of the POD is inherently naive.

But at least the guy doesn't seem to have gone any further than that. A petulant, passive aggressive argument between a site admin and someone who is almost certainly trolling to some degree is a refreshing change from the reddit standard which would have simply left a rhetorical smoking crater and the insistence that the crowd disperse.

I'm becoming concerned that Saidit may not adhere to its own high standards of debate.

Saidit's problem is that it's aiming for a utopian ideal. Cheeky sods, mischevious trolls and legitimate bad faith assholes will all complicate things for an endeavour like that, and the real question is how will Saidit evolve over time as it is challenged by those various types of people.

The specifics of a pointless argument over a "race realism" comic strip are relatively small fry in comparison.

[–]LithargoelKiA Old Guard[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm glad you brought all those points up, because they are what I've been personally leaning towards believing (the concept of the PoD is inherently naive, a passive-aggressive argument between a site admin [whom I believe is no longer engaging in good faith] and a user who is probably trolling to some degree [and therefore not engaging purely in good faith]). I'm loathe of opinion to Saidit's "insightful/fun" replacement of upvote/downvote, and would rather not have them at all, when per-user client-based "hide this post / ignore user" options might be better suited for those who would want to use them.

Utopian ideals are unrealistic ideals, I believe. Not to say they're not worth striving for in some cases, but a non-forum style reddit clone platform might do better in being truly neutral, excepting of course the few necessary rules like not allowing posting of content that will get it shut down by the feds, and letting the discussion chips fall where they may.

[–]ClockworkFoolKiA Old Guard 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The problem with starting a reddit, twitter or etc alternative of any kind, particularly if you care about free speech to any degree at all, is that sooner or later you are going to have to make hard decisions about bad faith users and genuine extremists.

I'm not sure there's an easy, painless or tidy solution to that kind of thing and I think what we see in the link is Saidit brushing up against that same inescapable problem.

We had plenty of issues with the same situation with KiA2 on reddit essentially. Being known as a more free speech version of KiA, we soon started attracting people who either wanted to abuse the relatively open, light touch rules for their own ends, wanted to fuck around just to annoy people or undermine the sub itself and some legitimate Stormfront types who would really rather have liked to drive out anyone other than people like themselves. Most of the latter ended up running aground on reddit's sitewide rules sooner or later, but all of the above types were there attempting to derail the sub in their own vision and all of them came with similar risk to what sites like Gab experienced, where they become overwhelmingly known as being a certain way to the point that it permanently stunted their growth and drove off normies.

What do you do about that kind of thing when the only rules that exist are rules you set, when you also claim to be pro free speech?

It's a genuinely tricky question. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out here, with Saidit's idealist bent.

[–]iraelmossadreddit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm confused. What did magnora do wrong? It seems like they are just stating their opinion or argueing. whichever way you wanna see it.

[–]magnora7Saidit Admin 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I was, and this person is now trying to spin it like I did something wrong. Meanwhile the person I was discussing with is trying to change the topic, and say what I'm doing is a "personal attack". Not a good look for OP or chipit, tbh.

People trying to use the pyramid of debate as a weapon to attack others, rather than as a guide to improve discussion. And lying about it too.

Sad.

[–]LithargoelKiA Old Guard[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

According to Mag's PoD, one is supposed to address the central point of the post, refute it or counter-argue it, where resorting to an ad-hominem attack against the user because of the perceived characteristics by the replier is only one step above name-calling. Mag refused to address the argument (again, I'm not taking myself a position with or against the OP's image's position) and instead concern-trolls about posting "divisive" content, because he has already made up his mind about the current ongoing "revolution" and anything related to those involved. Mag then posts this nugget in response to OP's initial reply to Mag's initial comment. If that isn't clearly Mag refusing to address the OP's stated position ("Intelligence is a heritable trait") by an ad-hominem and concern-trolling, demanding the argument be met to his point while ignoring his own PoD, and deflecting constantly to his claim that the current multitude of co-opted revolution is contributing to increasing racial tension and divide, I don't know what more I can show you. That whole thread is a fucking mess, and the top-level reply to Mag (and its reply ) are completely ignored by him, despite their contribution to the OP's point and calling him out on his own low-hanging fruit top-level comment to OP.

This site is supposed to be better than this, but there has been a marked abandonment of the Pyramid of Debate since the riots broke out, especially by Mag's own "crusade of truth" for lack of a better term, and a handful of powerusers own "crusades of truth" dealing with the purported reasons behind the ongoing riots.

[–]magnora7Saidit Admin 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill... lol

Nice try.

[–]iraelmossadreddit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I said I was confused and that was your response...now I'm extra confused.

[–]APDSmithKiA Old Guard 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Well, if South Park has taught me anything, it's that you must now acquit.

[–]dittendatt 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So do you think posting divisive content, that divides people by race, in the moment of this revolution, is a good idea?

I find this sentiment from the Admin pretty concerning. Like he obviously thinks this revolution is so important everyone needs to suspend their normal posting and join in.

[–]DomitiusOfMassilia⬛ 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure if he'll like my answer, but yes.

Truth is, in order to prevent violence, the marketplace of ideas must be more open. People have to take responsibility for their own emotions about what they see. The truth is that they will have to learn to accept the existence of distasteful ideas.

I think that BLM are racialists, pure and simple. But the truth of the matter is, I HAVE to tolerate their racism. Even their efforts to promote institutional racism. We need to argue with these positions because they will need to be rebuffed. We can't argue against them if we can't see them.

People need to express themselves in times of heightened tension. Censoring them will only promote violence. Unity will only come through voluntary amicable exchange. It can't come through censorship and force.

[–]Elvis_Presley 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Worrisome, if true.

But I'm not exactly seeing anything too incriminating here yet.

I think it's safe to say, everybody best to be on the lookout -- as you mentioned, recent events at Le Reddit increase the need for a new, freer platform.

[–]DanielKO 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Did he do anything other than disagree and use some bad arguments? If not, let him disagree and make bad arguments, it gives people the chance to respond. Sounds like Saidit is working as intended.

[–]LithargoelKiA Old Guard[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

/u/DomitiusOfMassilia If this post doesn't past sub-rules muster, or I need to edit anything for 'reasons', please let me know. I don't intend to cause any trouble by what I've posted, just wanted to bring awareness to how the state of the site is rapidly shaping due to "poweruser" and admin poop-flinging.

[–]DomitiusOfMassilia⬛ 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think so. If it did, I think magnora7 would have said something to me.

To be honest, this is why I maintain an alt and try to only have limited interaction with this account. If you're in a position of administrative power, you really can't bicker with people, you kinda need to be a rules monk. With your alt, you can run your mouth.

[–]LithargoelKiA Old Guard[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now's as good a time as ever to hand over ownership to you, then. I had thought that by now /u/AntonioOfVenice would be on board the mod team, but that eventuality doesn't need me involved anymore since you and /u/ClockworkFool have things well in hand. It is long overdue that I do so anyway, since I never had intention to stay on as a moderator (that's not my bag, baby). The lights are on and the keys are on the rack.

Thank you for building up this beach-head for us Reddit-refugees, Dom.