all 64 comments

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 96 insightful - 1 fun96 insightful - 0 fun97 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We were never kicked out for transphobia. We were kicked out for wrongthink. That fact that they had even initially banned r/detrans means they never distinguished between the two when they made the purge list.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Solid take, couldn't say it any better than this.

[–][deleted] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely correct. They call any lack of support for the trans agenda and I do believe that it is pretty clear at this point, that it is an agenda, transphobia.

I have no fear or horror about transpeople. I do have total horror about their attempt (and success) at the erasure of lesbians/gay men/bisexuals and women.

I agree, no attacking specific individuals or stooping to the level of debasement that I have seen and read that some of them do with impunity.

One only has to read Twitter comments to J.K. to see the lengths at which they will go, if allowed.

[–]LilianH 46 insightful - 5 fun46 insightful - 4 fun47 insightful - 5 fun -  (15 children)

Define "transphobia" first.

[–]midnight305 36 insightful - 1 fun36 insightful - 0 fun37 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same .

Like with how my life's been ruined and turned upside down for being a lesbain. I'm not so sure if I can forgive what they've done to me and thousands of others and is still doing it. Like wgars going to happen if they push a kid to comment suicide....I definitely won't forgive that. No way no how.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

The term transphobia does get thrown around a lot so I should probably be clear that I mean real transphobia. Actually dehumanising people and going after them for who they are and not what they say/believe.

I absolutely think that we shouldn't let baseless accusations of transphobia shut down discussions though - if that's what you were thinking.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

they consider misgendering transphobia... is that real? I agree with your sentiment but their is our definition and theirs.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't really know where I lie on that point. I think if someone has gone through all the steps to transition then potentially? But I also disagree with the random pronouns like ze, zem etc. and I don't think refusing to use them is a sign of contempt for the actual person. What do you think?

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

actually some words like Tr***y I can see being banned here, not sure about other things like gc would use but the lgbdrop banned... ze zem and them always struck me as a little pretensions lol, so I agree that that's a little different. I don't want this sub to attract people who just want to mock T. It will change us into something else. Q we can make fun of all the time though :D

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why can't people just say what they want and others have a thicker skin? What good is debate if you can't say what you really think? Ru Paul got ostracized for saying tranny, and he's said it his entire career. Why should there be language police? The TRAs don't respect us one iota. I've never understood why people get hung up on words, and it seems comically absurd in a context where greater violations and aggression is manifest, to bother over perceived (but not even intended) microaggressions. I don't like having to self censor or police speech at all. If someone doesn't like it, why can't they just scan down to the next comment?

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tranny will attract the wrong crowd was my only point.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lack of complete compliance is transphobia. That is its literal definition imho. Transphobia = lack of compliance. Nothing more. It is a blunt tool to bludgeon people into towing the line.

Nothing more. Any and all meaning it may of once had has been lost due to re-purposing over time.

[–][deleted] 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

To be fair, I can imagine people are increasingly fed up because of the asymmetrical warfare going on. You can be the best possible person and seek to refute the innate homophobia of gender ideology, and the horrific discrimination by the trans activists on display against gay and lesbian people, and even simply posting screenshots of what they are saying themselves gets you banned. You're maligned, hated, mistreated, and discriminated against, just for pointing out the emperor has no clothes.

You have to admit that's extremely difficult to respond to in a "nice" way, when it's obvious the kind of thing these activists are seeking to do. They don't want conversation. They want elimination. That's why it's always extremely difficult, because it's inherently unfair. They get to say/do whatever they want, call me and other people names, make us lose our jobs and friends and family, and then it behooves us not to treat them in kind? I have to admit, that's a tall order.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It is difficult, but just remember that you're not doing it for them, you're doing it for yourself.

At the end of the day, mucking in the mud with them just gets you as dirty as they are. The way to win their game is not to be tricked into playing it. We can call out their homophobia without stooping to their level and calling them names and harassing them, and at the end of the day we'll be glad we did.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In the first case, I'm not talking about myself. I'm too old to have such anger anymore by far. However, what I absolutely do think is invalid is this notion that such anger is never deserved, or should never be expressed nor spoken. On the contrary, I can well imagine plenty of people have been directly targeted for harassment by "LGBT" groups that are just "T" ones who have noplace to speak out to begin with. Not to mention all the blatant hypocrisy by such people which, near as I can figure, has no place here. It is entirely unfair to declare such people "dirty" or "rooting in the mud" when they're simply reacting to the mud pit thrown onto them in the first place.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's entirely possible to vent and criticize their godawful behavior without resorting to the kind of personal attacks a functional definition of transphobia would include, is the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that our grievances should not be aired or that our criticisms should just be swallowed. Ensuring we have the same context here, I would not consider "Trans women are not women" to be dirty or shit slinging. I would consider personal attacks, slurs, etc. that don't evolve into meaningful conversation to be shit slinging.

The purpose of my analogy was not to say that retaliating makes one "dirty" (As taken out of context it sounds like a very harsh criticism of the person, rather than a simple description of the consequences of a behavior) and I do apologize for any undue offence as I'm not here to try attacking anyone. I simply believe that retaliating and playing their games will do far more for their narrative than our cause.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think transphobia is fear of trans ideology, and is a legitimate position. Mudslinging and insults are just bad behavior and shouldn't be part of any adult discourse, regardless of the topic.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I disagree. I'm a free speech absolutist. When I was a kid, I remember frequently hearing "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." When did the commitment to freedom of speech (a prerequisite to thinking) go away? I don't believe it is possible to bully or attack someone you aren't even addressing and don't know exists. When talking about ideas, what they are calling hate is actually just heresy. Well I'm an unrepentant heretic on this issue.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But what if you are legitimately afraid of an idea that, in Iran at least, compels homosexuals to have genital surgery because homosexuality is punished by hanging, while the state pays for sex changes? That's a frightening ideology. Remember The Gendercator? That lesbian filmmaker saw all of this coming years ago.

I'm naziphobic. Is that a hateful thing? Some ideas are just scary.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 34 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 0 fun35 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

"transphobia" is a weasel word. It sets the premise that fear is the only option other than complete submission to a concept. Another problem is that disagreement with the concept is commonly interpreted as "attacking" practitioners of the concept.

[–]slushpilot 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Agreed. I think something more precise like "personal attacks" or "dehumanizing language" is enough to cover it. Legitimate criticism must remain open.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't understand what is so bad about transphobia. Trans is a frightening ideology that causes real harm to people, including kids. Being disrespectful in discourse is not transphobia; it is immaturity.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get what you're saying. Some things invoke a fear reaction for good reason. That's normal.

The transgender concept is a dangerous scourge to society with negative repercussions for the future. This is mostly because of the implicit idea that self-identification invalidates external observation. That is a fundamentally massive problem.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Trans is a frightening ideology that causes real harm to people

What do you mean by this?

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It advocates for hormones and genital surgeries, that sterilize and mutilate, without changing one's sex at all. It erases women and homosexuality by redefining basic words. It pollutes political discourse by attempting to shut down any disagreement. It goes after people's careers when they disagree. It actively seeks to ban forums created to discuss the implications of its ideas. It frames heresy against its ideology as "hate". It reifies sex role stereotypes. It pushes these ideas on children. It hates actual people and labels them TERFs, and encourages targeting them for harassment. It is antithetical to women's and gay liberation, and rolls back progress made towards equality and freedom from sexual stereotypes. It takes over organizations, and spaces set up for women and gay people. It is illiberal, unfriendly, narcissistic, aggressive, and cult-like in its zealotry.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Looking at your other comments I think we have different ideas on what transphobia is. In my post I meant that we shouldn't stoop to personal attacks in discussions here. I see transphobia as a dislike of trans people, regardless of whether they believe in areas of the trans ideology we disagree with. So when you said:

I don't understand what is so bad about transphobia

I took that to mean you don't have a problem with hating the actual people as opposed to the views. But I see what you mean. We shouldn't be prevented from raising objections to the ideology itself.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think incivility should be tolerated toward anyone. That includes but is not specific to trans people. Everyone is a unique individual and deserves respect. This should go without saying and doesn't need a special term.

Transphobia is a slur against people who are opposed to trans ideology, but that ideology has many things about it to fear (look at how grotesquely it presents in Iran).

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For sure. Using a buzzword with an ever shifting definition just sets us up to have the carpet ripped out from under us when it's redefined to include whatever they've decided to demonize next.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If throwing the word transphobia doesn’t work, they just reach in their back pocket and call you a terf.

I think we need to feel what we feel and say what we need to say. I don’t know how this works if have have to be as careful with our words as we did on Reddit. It got exhausting to me, and in the end, we got banned anyway.

There are right-leaning saidits. I read them on occasion. Sometimes, I agree with what I think is a valid point and other times I don’t.

No one makes me read them, but I am always glad that saidit is not censoring anyone. We would just become another Reddit is we go after wrongthink, thoughtcrimes, etc.

No personal attacks is what I feel is appropriate.

[–]upcomingDaddygay af 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I literally was just castigated by a personal contact for claiming "men have dicks", and told I was being transphobic. Defining what is or isn't transphobia within the context of this sub is critical.

[–]transphobicfaggot 20 insightful - 8 fun20 insightful - 7 fun21 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

Does transphobic mean not wanting vagina because I'm a gay male? Sign me up!

[–]Uranian 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think you could dispense with the idea that being homosexual is a "preference" here.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

When I first came out, we called it our sexual orientation. That never changed.

Transpeople changed it for us to eliminate our sexuality. They started calling it a preference. That infuriates me. If it were a simple choice, wouldn’t we like to be heterosexual? I will speak for myself: my life would have been much easier if I had had a choice. I was literally disowned by my parents and written out of their will for being a lesbian. This is a gut-level pain for me.

Regardless of what hardships our sexuality has caused us, sexuality is not a preference or a choice.

No, homosexuality and bisexuality is not simply a preference. It is our sexual orientation.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For me, I don't know if my homosexuality is the result of choice. But I'm not concerned about it either way.

I've been asked if it were possible to become straight, would I do so? No, I would not. That's a choice.

But I like the term orientation because it offers room for nuance whereas preference infers nothing other than a choice.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I did try to think of another word but I couldn't come up with one lol

[–]Uranian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Innate sexual orientation would do :)

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sexuality carries all the meaning required

[–]lostinreverieMy ovaries are transphobic 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

‘Requirement’, or something along those lines, would have worked.

[–]puffball 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Whatever your personal experiences have been, the fact that so many of these supposedly "good" trans people refuse to speak up when the "bad" ones speak in their name, and continue to provide cover and comfort for the ones responsible for attacks on anyone who won't submit 100% to their ideology, means I really can't tell the supposedly "good" from the "bad".

Anyone of them who watched, e.g., what was done against J.K on twitter and elsewhere, and did nothing to speak up against what was said and done in their name, are almost as bad as the ones attacking her.

[–]zeusdx1118 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah... It's like police who kill people, plant evidence, etc and the "good police" who have the power to arrest them, spotlight them, etc, who instead stand back and let it happen.

[–]snowdogbilly 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Calling out trans "people's" homophobia should not be transphobic.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And it isn't

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I noticed the rules ban using the word "mutilation" to describe trans operations. Is that transphobic? Has anyone watched a "sex reassignment surgery" on YouTube? I'm of the opinion this is the lobotomy of our time. I can't even stomach circumcision, and see it as involuntary mutilation.

[–]CinnamonFrenchToast 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It doesn’t matter what anecdotal experiences you’ve had. The people you met aren’t like the majority, and while they may serve as a reminder to others that not all trans people are like the ones we encounter, that is, in no way, any reason to be accepting of them or to not strongly dislike them. One of the foundations upon which LGBDropTheT was built was us not seeing them as who they’re forcing us to. If that makes us transphobic, then there’s no keeping transphobia out. I am transphobic and that was never going to change; not before I joined the sub, not when the sub was banned, and especially not now. Fuck trans people.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It doesn’t matter what anecdotal experiences you’ve had. The people you met aren’t like the majority

I'm going to assume you have the statistics to back that up?

[–]CinnamonFrenchToast 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

For every trans person who visited DropTheT to discuss their similar interest in separating T from LGB and understood where we came from, how many more trans people would you say there are who don't want what we do, who think like the 29K+ Reddit users that upvoted the post about our sub being deleted? It doesn't take a statistic to tell you trans people that are like the ones you met are the minority. Wake up.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That's irrelevant when the sample isn't random. For every trans person who didn't like the old sub, how many more do you think didn't contribute to the discussions? Or who aren't even on Reddit? I don't know the real numbers, and neither do you. If you think they're the majority then that's fine, but don't act like your opinions are facts.

[–]CinnamonFrenchToast 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not participating in discussions and not using reddit doesn’t mean shit. A lot of people get on reddit just to read what goes on and don’t comment on anything at all, but that doesn’t mean those people don’t think like the ones who post and comment. And if you don’t believe me, check that post about our ban to see if there are just as many comments as there are likes. Of course I don’t know the numbers, but it doesn’t take a lot to see they’re the majority. If the 29K+ people who upvoted the post about our ban, and the thousands of people on Twitter who are clearly just like them, don’t tell you they’re the majority, then idk what else to tell other than to stop telling others how to respond to trans clowns and their supporters because of personal experiences you had.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

A 2016 study had the U.S population of transgender people at roughly 1.3 million. So unless you have evidence that over 650,000 of them hold those views, your claims are worthless.

[–]CinnamonFrenchToast 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

unless you have evidence that over 650,000 of them hold those views, your claims are worthless.

Yet you mentioned the 2-5 trans idiots you know personally as if they reflect the majority of the 1.3M and are proof they can be understanding of preference. Your whole point was people don't always participate in discussions, meaning the majority could think something entirely different from those who do, but that post about us getting banned got 29K upvotes and only had 1.8K comments. 16x more users upvoted that post than users commented on it, and that number's higher since the same users made multiple comments. Are you now going to argue that the other 511K users of r/LGBT weren't against the ban? That—along with everything the trans and their supporters do on Reddit and other platforms—are clear indicators the majority are like those who wanted our sub gone. You don't have to see it or believe it if you don't want to, but fuck off with telling us not to hate on them because you think the rest of trans people are like the ones you've met. Just fuck all the way off.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm running out of ways I can explain this to you.

Yet you mentioned the 2-5 trans idiots you know personally as if they reflect the majority

Did I though? I think it was you who made that assumption.

Are you now going to argue that the other 511K users of r/LGBT weren't against the ban? That—along with everything the trans and their supporters do on Reddit and other platforms—are clear indicators the majority are like those who wanted our sub gone.

The one point I was making to you is that you didn't - and still haven't - provided the goods to back up your claim that the majority of trans people are dramatically unlike the ones I've met. My 1.3mil are US statistics, the 511k users of LGBT are neither all US-based, nor all trans. So that number becomes irrelevant. It's a well known phenomenon on social media that the extreme members of a group drown out the others and lead to a biased image of that group being made by observers. None of that actually proves anything one way or the other.

Again, I'm making no claim about what the majority actually thinks, because I understand that we don't have the objective stats to make a claim like that accurate. That's something you don't seem to understand. And I don't know how to help you with that.

fuck off with telling us not to hate on them because you think the rest of trans people are like the ones you've met. Just fuck all the way off

Not really sure what to say to this outburst other than you don't have to read my posts if you don't want to? Take care

[–]Yamyam 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Lol. Everything's transphobic nowadays. There's no such thing as "not transphobic" in their eyes, either you suck their girldick or you're a transphobic bigot.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hence why I posted my own definiton

[–]zeusdx1118 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They don't go by your definition though. They go by theirs, and so do their mob followers unfortunately.

[–]genre 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree if we're going by the definition in your edit. Transgenderism is very obviously a mental disorder (which isn't a "bad" thing- it's on the same tier as having any other illness), and these people who are clearly suffering from it don't need more unnecessary suffering imposed upon them.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It is a cult of irrational beliefs populated by zealots who do not practice the sort of "kid gloves" treatment of others that they preach. It is ok to say that one fears that ideology. It isn't personal.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When people talk like that, it reminds me of parents who are afraid to tell their kids no. Suffering is a necessary fact of life. Coddling people's delusions is not helping them.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Absolutely. The moment we let our anger get the better of us and retaliate in kind, they'll latch on to it as "proof" that we were evil transphobes uwu all along and we'll lose any credibility we might have had to outside perspectives.

With all the things that have been happening lately, the radical gender ideology has been at serious risk of having its rampant misogyny and homophobia exposed. JK Rowling brought a lot of attention to the oppression of women and homosexuals, which may have even been why reddit suddenly decided it was time to eradicate many prime sources of evidence supporting her points, and any points others may make while speaking out in the future.

As long as we keep to our purposes of exposing foul play, finding and preserving the truth, and fighting for our dignity without letting our frustrations get the better of us we can turn back the tide against new age homophobia.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Will someone please explain why it is bad to be transphobic? I'm a little frightened of intolerant zealots in an aggressive cult trying to force people to see the world the way they do. Just because they have some mild mannered members, one cannot criticize the clearly erroneous and harmful ideology? It is not possible for humans to change their sex. I SEE 4 FINGERS!