From the rules post

submitted by xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) from self.LGBDropTheT

""You still cannot post anti-trans memes and rants. Remember that we're trying to be mature and thoughtful in our critique and analysis, and deliberately mocking/shaming others is not that. If anyone would like to create a sub that allows for that kind of content - like the old r/DropTheTea or r/ThereAreTwoGenders did - please message us mods to be added to our sidebar. "

Not sure how I feel about adding anti trans stuff to our side bar... it doesn't really represent us even tangentially. What do you think? If it's just a "hate on trans" sub do we put that as a sister sub?

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[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I have a question about that. Why have we gotten to a point where people aren't allowed to express their displeasure at how certain groups treat them? If you're at risk of losing your job, friends, even family, by speaking out against something you disagree with, how is it unreasonable to express an equivalent amount of anger?

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth)[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's the difference between discussing issues, and just calling someone a slur. Its not about expressing your displeasure, and anger, we always did that. Vent all you want.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Of this I'm not sure I agree. What greater expression of disapproval of an ideology than denigrating it by what it considers the worst possible words? I'm not arguing that be done here, only that such things ought to have their place for any group and targeting anyone. If it's a free for all, nobody can lay claim to some special status as oppressed. But if special exemptions are given, and expected, that paves the way precisely for the boat we are in now. It hardly matters what group you are part of, increasingly these days just not kowtowing to Californian progressivism is a death sentence.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I get what you're saying. But we're talking about things like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20190820162056/https://old.reddit.com/r/DropTheTea/

The images in the banner, or a series of posts like the creator made called "Monsters Among Us". Just mockery and sneering and disgust, disguised as activism.

Freeze peaches and all that jazz, but how does that make us look? As LGB people trying to fight for our right to exist?

That's why we're saying someone else can make it and do whatever they want. And hell, we'll even link to it so any users who do want to pull off the gloves and go hard, they know where to go too. But it's not appropriate here.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you're mistaken regarding mockery as not activism. Do you honestly think religion would not be being beaten back from its excesses were it not for the mountains of well earned mockery levied against them? That is the place of mockery to begin with. If you are not allowed to argue, if the people you argue against won't hear you, that is exactly when mockery is deserved and best suited.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's not a point we've gotten to, but something people have forgotten nowadays. Two wrongs don't make a right, and while our anger is completely justified it's better spent making change rather than lashing out. Shit flinging is just what they want. They want us to become the bogeymen they've made us out to be.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The thing is, they'll do that whether you do or not. I agree they should be different spaces, but there's no reason we ought to denigrate people who need a space to vent either. They celebrate people like us, critics of gender, being punished all the time. Yet there's little space for such critics to celebrate them getting their comeuppance. I don't see why not link those spaces, when they've more than earned that animosity.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm quite tired, so I'll do my best to articulate my point and apologies if I don't quite get it across right.

Just making sure we're on the right page because I made a mistake when responding to your message, I'm not saying we shouldn't express our displeasure at all the homophobia we've been made to deal with. I'm responding specifically to the part of the rule that forbids deliberate mocking and shaming, which wasn't actually referenced in your comment so the point I'm making is largely moot.

The above considered I do want to explain why I don't think that kind of retaliation will help, and why it may potentially be counterproductive to link it to this space, which has a very different motive.

I know that there's a lot of very justified anger for their insufferable smugness as they celebrate the censorship of the people they've spent so long trying to beat down. I feel it too, and I'm really just trying to make sure I don't say or do anything I'll regret later.

I'm of the opinion that the best hope that we have for all of this insanity to end is for all this fetid garbage to be aired out in the court of public opinion. They intentionally keep things as obfuscated as they can in order to fool others into thinking our anger is hatred, and that our indignance is fragility.

Eventually that bubble will burst, and I'm of the worry that if we stoop down to their level and start trading blows then it's going to be much easier for them to spin things in their favor, because people who go looking will be able to find communities dedicated to laughing at their misfortune, in the same way they laugh at ours. It's not a good look.

When I was growing up, I was the target of a few of those types of bullies at school. The types that'd put you down constantly, then when you retaliate paint you as the bad guy to the teacher, pointing to "evidence" they've goaded you into giving them. The real nasty and manipulative type. The radicals attacking us are nothing more than that. Manipulative, nasty, self absorbed bullies who specialize in bold faced lies.

The more that we give them to work with, the harder it'll be when the coin drops and both sides have to be examined properly. Document and criticize all of their attacks on us, yes. But if we celebrate their misfortunes and participate in ad hominem, it could well come back to bite us in the ass later even if its not associated with a risk of being banned for fake "hate speech".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sofar as pointlessly denigrating goes, I would agree, in that it creates an equivalence of misbehavior. But sofar as celebrating the misfortunes of the people denigrating you, of that I am not so sure. Do you honestly believe these people will resign themselves to seeing reason, and to agreeing their ideas of themselves do not give them right and license to force others to see likewise? I do not anymore. I think these are exactly those kinds of bullies who will not only never change, but if defeated in one avenue will simply seek in desperation another to be supreme over. Such is the plight of the narcissist: Always seeking more attention wherever it comes from.

As for what must be done? I haven't a clue. I think people have always been this way and the internet just gives them license to act out visibly. For my part I can hardly pretend I don't enjoy when they get some smidgen of comeuppance for this shit.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Manipulative, nasty, self absorbed bullies who specialize in bold faced lies.

If that statement is ok, I'm not sure what is prohibited. But policing speech is one of the main gripes I have about the trans movement. They are illiberal bigots. To reproduce that atmosphere of "watch what you say or how you say it" is off putting, especially now.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There isn't a clear definition of who "us" is. It's obvious from the old sub that there is a broad coalition of perspectives here. Plenty of us are "anti-trans" so it's probably a good idea for the mods to provide a pathway for that sentiment versus acting like it doesn't exist.

[–]annatheginguh 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that's the best way to describe it. It's not appropriate to host here, but an alternative is available for our users to find and participate in.

[–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You can always remove people who are just spamming or being violent.

There's no need to take the sub off /all unless you want to remove people who are disagreeing in a rational way.

If you want to be able to remove those people, then you must take yourself off of /all and say the sub will remove opposing opinions in the sidebar.

Either option is great. Whichever option you all choose, it's 100% up to the mods of the sub. You can try leaving it open to /all for a while and see how it goes.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Even when private, this sub has always been removed from s/all, as we do not allow disagreement with our overall stance (even when presented rationally). Reddit taught us an awful lot about astro-turfing, and how "well-reasoned debate" will quickly override and silence LGB voices.

We have this statement in the sidebar in order to comply with SaidIt policy:

Mods will remove opposing views, regardless of where on the PyramidOfDebate they may be. Violations may result in a permanent ban without notice.

Since you're an Admin, would you prefer we word the sidebar statement in a different way to be even more clear and/or precise? Admittedly, we shortened things up due to character limitations in the sidebar, but we will revisit and refine our wording if you feel it's needed.

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cool sounds good to me, that complies with the rules just fine. Thanks for letting me know.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Disagreement provides the best opportunity to showcase one's perspective tho, and pick apart the other's argument. And perhaps it is just because I am an American, but the idea of banning for expressing an opinion feels evasive - like something someone would do if they couldn't defend their own conceptions. It implies a weakness in one's position; that it can't stand on its own. I think the trans ideology is so weak it has no argument. That's why they resort to these tactics, and it is so obvious they have to ratchet up the peer pressure and fear of ostracism to make any headway.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The problem, is they don't just respectfully disagree - they swarm, like a plague of locusts, and overrun subs with their ideology and circular reasoning. They call people names who disagree. More and more people see that, and start thinking it's OK to do it too, because the space allows it, right?

And that's how you end up with subs like LGBT, ActualLesbians, LesbianActually, etc etc. Where it's 90% pro-trans content, homosexuality is referred to as "genital preference", and actual LGB people are silenced and left wondering if they've swallowed crazy pills.

We're not letting DropTheT turn into that ... they couldn't tolerate it on Reddit and got us shut down. Hell, they even got the debate sub shut down, and that was moderated really well and encouraged all sides to pick apart each others arguments. Hopefully, the debate sub will spring back up here on SaidIt, and we can direct people there.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Extraordinary measures to combat unreasonable behavior. I get it. Sad that it has to come to that. A semester in high school on civility and debate should be mandatory in the internet age.