DiscussionAn Idea: Gender Agnosticism

submitted by JulienMayfair from self.LGBDropTheT

It's seemed to me that we end up in endless battles of assertions with TRAs over the whole TWAW/TMAM issue, an issue that ends up polarizing many people nearby. Thinking about that, it occurred to me that perhaps a more useful position to take for the purposes of argument would be what I'd call Gender Agnosticism. In other words, I'd say, "I don't feel like I can know what gender identity is. I observe that it's a phenomenon, and I'm happy to accommodate people socially. What I won't do is get behind politics that are based on the absolute assertion that TWAW/TMAM because I have no way of objectively verifying that assertion."

It seems to me that if you are engaging someone, taking this position might give people who are witnessing the engagement the sense that there is some maneuvering room and might throw doubt on absolute assertions that TWAW without resorting to the kind of direct contradiction that draws people in to white knight for the TRAs. Agnosticism would also move the debate into the context of belief, which is advantageous. Opinions?

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[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 13 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

This is basically what I say when I'm asked about my "gender identity" and I don't want to out myself as an evil critical thinking "transphobe." I usually say something along the lines of;

"I don't consider myself to have a gender, but I'm not agender. I believe that agender is an identity in itself, but for me, gender isn't something I experience. It's an alien concept to me, so I don't have one. I am neither cisgender - because I don't identify with my assigned gender, nor am I transgender because I don't identify with any gender label whatsoever."

And if that doesn't work I usually whip out the "I'm intersex so don't you dare call me cis" and they shut up out of fear of my minority status lmfao

[–]fuck_reddit 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Lmao they shut up because they use intersex as an argument all the time but have likely never encountered an intersex person in their life

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Many times, I've had a TRA use that argument to my face, without knowing I am in fact one of those fabled intersex people they love to use as pawns.

When I tell them that no, I'm not a hermaphrodite or a "third sex", and that considering me less than male is actually pretty disrespectful, they always mysteriously stop replying and vanish. Strange, huh...?

[–]fuck_reddit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yep! I hooked up a few times with a guy who had two X chromosomes and a Y and he said he could have developed female secondary sex characteristics, but he hadn’t. I wouldnt have known unless he told me.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

XXY syndrome seems to be very variable, and a lot of them don't really have trouble with passing for guys. Plus they still have penises and all. How TRAs think it's rational to insist they're a third sex because of the extra chromosome I really don't understand.

[–]anarchy753 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They simply have a shit understanding of anything real or biological because they dismiss anything that doesn't agree with them, when the biggest defining factor of gender is "do you have a Y chromosome or not" rather than number of X chromosomes.

[–]SeasideLimbs 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's a nice idea and I think I can see where you're coming from.

Some counterpoints:

  • TRAs won't have any problem with painting this stance as transphobic regardless of its neutrality. One could simply argue that refraining from acknowledging trans women's femaleness and trans men's maleness for any reason whatsoever sends the message that their identities are in doubt, which will lead to violence and murder. At least according to the usual TRA narrative.
  • If the point of this idea is how you come across to third parties, rather than TRAs, a simpler way would just be to engage the TRAs in polite debate and point out logical inconsistencies where they appear. (I think the recent threads on r/askgaybros are great examples of how one can calmly and reasonably engage in debate with TRAs without either being an ideological doormat nor a shrieking harpy declaring yourself correct and the other side incorrect.)

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can't win trying to accommodate their rules, it'll never be enough. I just say I don't believe in transgenderism and leave it at that.