all 34 comments

[–]SeasideLimbs 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

(Really good point on their use of "sex." I feel like "gender and sex are different" is really just a tactic, something they can abuse whenever they are in an argument they can't properly argue against. Otherwise sex is suddenly synonymous with gender.)

I'd actually argue in their favour when it comes to comparing passing with coming out, because I think they are just too different to really be considered opposites. Coming out is just about being okay with who you are. The actual thing about being gay/lesbian is being attracted to the same sex. Being trans is more about (supposedly) feeling like the other sex and wanting to be seen as that. So what passing is related to isn't so much coming out, but having a relationship with somebody of the same sex. Passing is sorta the end-point trans-identified people want to reach.

That said, that doesn't solve the many moral problems that come with full stealth, because it is a lie if you date someone and don't let that person know you cannot conceive a child, you have genitals that neither function nor look like the ones the person expects, and of course the fact that you are likely to have severe mental issues.

As for the weird irony of most of them being really insistent on letting people know they are trans... I'll just say this. Whenever you see crossdressing porn, the ugly guys doing the crossdressing porn always seem to make a really huge point out of showing their ugly penis front-and-center. Where's the fun if you were simply seen as a normal woman or man? People wouldn't praise you as stunning and brave. Plus the humiliation fetishists want people to know they're actually men. r/itsafetish often had openly trans-identified men come into the subreddit with the express purpose of having people there humiliate them for being fetishists.

[–]kwallio 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This phenomenon is more or less what soured me on the whole trans thing - they say trans women are women but if you just say women without a special shoutout to the trans you are excluding them. If they really believed twaw they wouldn't read "women" and think they are being excluded. They need to be not just a women but special somehow. Its very narcissistic imo.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

It is pretty funny part in discussions with TRA, when I am speaking about feminism problems or about LGB problems, I am always saying "women" and not "female", they are often "but what about transwomen???", and I am always answering "didnt' you just said that TWAW?", they answering "Yes, but you not mentioned them", and I am "because they are women, as you said, no? Are you transphobic?". It is always funny to play their own logic on them. Makes them really mad or quit discussion.

[–]hermiona52 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would also add that coming out is not a process that is done once and it's over. We're coming out multiple times throughout our lives. So situations in work like answering what you're doing for weekend with "Spending time with my girlfriend/wife" as a woman is coming out. Basically we never stop coming out because this type of conversation will happen all the time.

[–]basetenprefix 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely. The default is straight so there will be a natural assumption you have to "correct" (for lack of a better word) every time you meet someone new. Some people might guess, but they can't ever truly know unless you tell them. Ideally though, this form of coming out just morphs into a normal conversation and the frozen look of shock/confusion/uncertainty stops appearing on people's faces.

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's the difference between "My Truth" and The Truth. The latter never goes away and reasserts itself when any pressure is taken off. The former starts deforming when any pressure is taken off and the body immediately reasserts itself. It's like how in a star(gender) only continuous nuclear reactions can keep it inflated, but gravity always wins in the end.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

I just find it funny that people who want to "pass" so badly, don't, and those of us that can "pass" really don't care. I have passed for female many times. Genetic disorder, not trans. Honestly it's mostly annoying since people treat me like shit both because they think I'm a girl, and then when they find out I'm actually a guy (and proceed to get mad that androgynous people exist)

I also disagree that "coming out" is necessary, and I think a lot of gay people use that for clout/attention too. Usually the very privileged ones who have never been in any financial, social, etc danger yet make some huuuge deal of "coming out" like it's LIFE CHANGING when... honesly probably no one gives a shit and if you are able to share that information with social media clearly you don't have anything to fear. I'm glad to be "closeted", this is my private business, no one needs to know and I gain nothing positive for telling everyone. Plus I don't want to come across as a self absorbed moron by doing so.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Coming out is necessary if you want to have a fulfilling social life.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

How so...? I'm "closeted" and I doubt that my social life would get any better. It's not great right now but that's mostly due to depression and not meeting people. But if I "came out" publicly I could risk the friendships I already have.

[–]basetenprefix 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Personally speaking, I have found that I can never actually be close to anyone unless I'm out to them, because I constantly fear what you just stated: "But if I 'came out' publicly I could risk the friendships I already have." It was important for me to trust that my friends were truly friends because they knew me and who I was. Not the same for acquaintances or coworkers, who's opinions don't affect me as much, but friends yes. Can you have a fulfilling social life with people if you fear that they will leave you once they know the truth about you?

I don't see a reason to "come out" in some performative, grandstanding way, but privately, to people who you trust to care for you, I think is important.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think friendship is reliant on "accept everything I do or we cant be friends." That's unhealthy, and very much like TRA "cancel culture" and shaming. If I'm friends with someone it's because they are fun company to be around and I trust them, not that they agree with me 100%. In fact I'm somewhat upset that some of my friends are a bit too "woke" in regards to homosexuality, but I digress.

Can you have a fulfilling social life with people if you fear that they will leave you once they know the truth about you?

You absolutely can - just simply by hiding that truth. I've never found it hard to do so, and I'm a sex addict. As long as you're careful it's quite hard to get "exposed"

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It applies to people who are capable of having a fulfilling social life.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How so? Explain please.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Bruh... really? Being open and truthful with people is a required part of building meaningful relationships.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Not for something that sensitive/inappropriate. I mean my friends don't typically tell me all about their sex lives... nor do I want them to.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The topic doesn't have to be about sex for someone to know you're into guys.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I don't date guys, so SFW dating talk isn't going to come up either. If dating does come up, I usually leave it at "I'm single". If they push and outright ask me if I'm gay I just deny it

[–]BiHorror 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Can I ask you something? Sorry if it seems intrusive but you're intersex correct? There's this trend with TRAs saying it's possible for intersex women (not "trans" but someone born actually female) to be born with a penis and vice versa due to some intersex conditions... How true is that? Jw becuase they always bring shit up like that to try and prove a "point" for their ideology and I'm not sure if they're talking about an actual (fully functional) penis or ambiguous genitals that look similar to males'.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's half true. Or like... 25% true.

There are XX individuals who end up male, and XY individuals who end up female. However, they are not "men with vaginas" or "women with penises." These disorders are rare and complicated, and they are pretty much always considered their outward sex, and treated as such. In most cases, you wouldn't even be able to tell they aren't normal by looking at them.

It's also possible for an intersex person to be born with "ambiguous genitalia." This does NOT mean "having both sets of genitals" - it's more like an in-between mix, and one or both "sides" will be underdeveloped.

It is not possible for a person who is otherwise physically female to develop a penis, or for a male to develop a vagina instead. It is possible for a male, aka a penis haver, to develop in a way that ends up with them LOOKING female... which is basically what happened to me, but they are in no way "a woman with a penis."

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay, thanks! I figured it was as you were a saying but I just wanted to be sure becuase the majority of ones I meet (even those who have claimed to be intersex themselves) would say something among the likes of that. Like, for example, there was an intersex woman (?) I met who said they was born with everything on the inside female (ovaries, womb, vaginal canal, etc.) but then turned around and said they had a VERY similar sex organ to a penis (no vaginal opening either) and another who transitioned becuase they "felt more female" due to being intersex. So, kinda got me confused alongside the whole using intersex conditions as a prop to prove some point.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You will probably appreciate this from Zach Elliott, which debunks the points made in 'Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia' in Scientific American: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1280971658719789060.html

[–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I read it and thanks! It was interesting to see someone go against that "phony science..." article.

[–]kwallio 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Honestly the wikipedia article on intersex disorders is very informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

One thing that is interesting is that the article has info on how common some of these are, for example xx males are incredibly rare, like only 200 total have ever been counted. People are using these incredibly rare (and sometimes debilitating) disorders as a gotcha in a debate which to me is pretty despicable. Another thing I gleaned from this article is that intersex is not a third sex, usually people are either intersex male or intersex female, true hermaphrodites are not known in humans. Sex is not actually a spectrum, the ones that don't fit 100% are rare.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

These people know they've got nothing when they resort to rare exceptions as an argument. It's like bringing up that some people could be born with one lung.

[–]kwallio 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are all arguing in bad faith, its ridiculous and no one seems to care.

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I did read the wikipedia's description on it but was kinda reluctant on trusting it (due to it being wiki and people being able to edit). But yeah, I agree with you 100% on it being despicable to use intersex as a gotcha. Another I always seen thing use were women with infertility conditions or how homosexuality used to be in the DSM (those, tras, who are trying to get GD removed from it as well).

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

One thing I find particularly frustrating is that trans people constantly equate passing with people using their desired pronouns or not actively pointing out that they're trans. More often than not, it's not that they pass as their target sex, it's just obvious what sex they're trying to be seen as and most people are somewhere between being polite and walking on eggshells afraid to set off a TRA and be canceled. I often see/hear people say "I mostly pass" or "I pass most of the time." And that just means that they don't pass. They're not being treated like women/men. They're being treated like trans women and trans men. I personally know a trans woman who says that he passes most of the time but unfortunately he's just autistic and it's clear that he's a trans-identified guy who wants to be seen as female. He has made being a trans woman and not even a woman the entire focus of his life. He unfortunately lives in a bubble that feeds this delusion and he gives out tips to others trans people on how to pass, so it's the blind leading the blind. While I do feel bad for him, I am disgusted about how obsessed he is with pushing for kids to get put on puberty blockers so they can pass better. He did not have gender dysphoria as a child. There is nothing feminine or female-seeming about him. That is entirely not his fight.

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In reality, "passing" is a thing that can truly never happen because there will always be people who won't see a person as the opposite sex, especially when they find out the truth.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They do talk about gender dysphoria being replaced by gender euphoria once someone guesses them to be the gender they identify as

[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's one of the cringiest things I've ever read.

[–]Ossidiana 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the use of words is very revealing. They use the term "passing". That, in itself, is demonstration that transwomen are not women and they are 100% aware of it. "Passing" as something means that you aren't that something.

Another word I find interesting is that they also use the term "presenting", which is actually a biological term for when an animal is in heat and showing off their genitals. This reveals they're also fully aware that it's only a sexual fetish.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The thing about tricking people is also true for lots of the nonbinaries. Except for them it seems like they only care about the tricking and confusion part. Ive seen it with guys who are "traps" who love tricking guys then busting out man voice once they feel like they've tricked someone just to see the reaction.

This isn't true for everyone. There are tons of related trans sub types that get thrown under the same umbrella.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Coming out in anything intimate or legal (dating, relationship, one-sex-only spaces, elections) and passing in the rest of the time, because who cares?

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can see where you're coming from with the whole passing. I also seen how some trans would tear each other to shreds if some put actual effort into looking like their "desired" sex and vice versa. The whole trucute vs transmedical shit.

Don't really have much to say about "coming out" tho. Probably because I haven't, but not because I'm in a scenario where I can't, but don't really want to. Not really important to me if people do or don't know.