all 12 comments

[–]latuspodSuper Straight 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you are kind of right. And I hate that. I'm a fairly liberal dude in my early 30s and growing up there was little in the way of overt racism or homophobia, or bigotry of any kind among my peers. I just assumed that everyone would figure it out eventually. That has all been flipped on its head now.

Another disturbing trend that is popping up is the normalizing of pedophilia by progressives. And I am seeing it from a lot of the "transwomen are women allies"

Also I am pretty sure there are furries (featheries) that fetishize ducks.

It still doesnt excuse the right wing homophobes though. The idea is still wrong.

[–]Willpoll 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

First off, let me get it out of the way that it doesn't matter if they were right as we still deserve the same rights and accessibility as everyone else. It's like the first amendment. Freedom of speech will of course eventually lead to some wack jobs going crazy but that does not erode the legitimacy of free speech.

The TQ bullcrap isn't our fault in that a good chunk of us in that we weren't and aren't perpetrators of it . While LGB will be blamed for the crap going on with the TQ but the action of said blame is like blaming the dog for a parasite latching on. I really think that the TQ crap would've developed at maybe just a slightly lesser pace even without the landmark of legalized same sex marriage. After all, at least to me it seems like it really sprung up in the early 2010s. In my opinion our struggle was coopted after major wins in the west. Remember, we're not at across the board bestiality yet. We still have time to prove them wrong and I know we will

[–]les4leshomonormative 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that we've been taken advantage of. Because early LGBT included homosexual transsexuals, as in people who are actually LGB, we definitely greased the slope for these people to come in and slide down it. But queer theorists and heterosexuals were the ones who showed up, appropriated our language and experiences, and are now trying to force their beliefs on the rest of the world.

I think it could be argued that LGB people have enabled this in some sense, I know even in this sub a lot of us used to be trans allies. But honestly at a certain point we can't really point too many fingers. No one person did this, and neither did any one group of people, I think conservatives are just as culpable for the rise of trans as queer theorists when you think about how many trans people were raised with strict gender norms

[–]Constantine 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The difference is whether a clear line can be drawn. I think it’s pretty clear (at least to us) that a line can be drawn at LGB. That makes the slippery slope argument against gay marriage a fallacy.

But the slippery slope argument isn’t always a fallacy. It isn’t a fallacy when no clear line can be drawn. And the TRAs tried to exploit the gay rights movement to their own ends, and they succeeded. And now the line is gone and the slope is indeed quite slick.

So, to answer your question, yes and no. It’s not the same, but by letting them co-opt this movement, LGB is certainly making it look like it is.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, a slippery slope, and the one they were warning about, is that people would marry animals and nonsense like that. There is no slope that goes from opening marriage up, to the gender nonsense we are dealing with. No slope from marriage to transing kids, drag kids, attacks on women's sex based rights, etc. Sexuality based rights and gender based rights are different. I've seen alot of right wingers try to make this claim, as if they are connected, and they warned us!!1! What happened was we thought that because we were a community that had a wide gender expression that meant the TQ belonged. But Boy George, David Bowie know they are men, and annie lennox and K.d. Lang knew they were women. You can make the slippery slope argument that they are responsible for whats's going on now too lol. Now because of the woke critical queer theory stuff they are pushing a blurring of sex and gender, and even though we don't all agree with those philosophies, we are now tied to it through the modern LGBTQ+++ movement.

[–]ThrowMeAway2879 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No.

Yes, you are mistaking correlation with causation.

Next question.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nah, this shit is happening in Poland with that “non-binary woman” man and his “lesbian” girlfriend, and they don’t even have civil partnerships in Poland. Bolivia doesn’t have gay marriage or civil unions either, yet they already have a self-ID gender identity law. Russia no longer requires surgery for getting a “legal gender change”, but not only are there no gay marriage nor civil partnerships, you might also get fined for “promoting non-traditional relationships”, any media content with gay characters is rated “adults only” and I really don’t envy any LGB person who lives in Chechnya.

It doesn’t matter if gay couples have the same rights as straight couples. TRAs will push for special privileges and obedience as long as they are arrogant enough to think they can get what they demand. Ignorant straight people can blame it all on gay marriage all they want, but they’re ignorant, and probably met a gay person in their lives.

[–]QueenBread 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even bad people can sometime, even by accident, end up saying true things. So yeah, I think they were definitely right. It's no wonder classical philosophers and ancient Christianity (and probably other religions too) believed that moderation is the key to goodness. Everything, in excess, ends up becoming evil. So, the whole "wokeness" thing, put to excess, turned into the very evil it was supposed to be against.

[–]JulienMayfair 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Overall, the answer is no. I think you have to be rigorous in terms of how you answer this question. If you look strictly at gay marriage, the various decisions in different countries didn't in and of themselves lead to what we are dealing with now.

The movement towards the focus on gender ideology began with academics like Judith Butler and was popularized by others including Riki Wilchins. Keep in mind that Camp Trans, the organized opposition to the female-only policy of MichFest started all the way back in 1994, and, at the time, it had little to do with LGB activism. It was aimed at feminists, not at the common enemies of LGB, namely religious conservatives and their allies.

I would argue, having been around at the time, that LGB rights and the TQ+ were fairly distinct, and it wasn't uncommon to hear from the self-described Radical Queers that gay marriage was some kind of assimilationist, bourgeois effort that wasn't part of their agenda at all. They weren't interested in monogamy and white picket fences.

What I think you have is two parallel strains that never really had that many goals in common. What did happen is that after the SCOTUS marriage decision in the U.S., a lot of LGB-founded organizations pivoted to TQ+ gender issues in order to continue to have something to do to justify the corporate money they still had coming in.

So, yes, I think you are getting the chain of causality wrong. I understand how it looks to conservatives because they aren't in a position to distinguish between the LGB and the TQ+. It all looks the same to them.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The problem is that the LGB brought on the T to fight those homophobes. If anything, it's their fault for forcing us to bring on this cancerous tumor that now is causing problems

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To a certain extent yes, but it didn’t need to be this way. LGBT got captured by largely heterosexual outsiders and by queer theory. This needn’t have been the case. Just like it needn’t be the case that if you are concerned about unequal treatment under the law about black people in the U.S. that the natural result is that you adopt all the positions of BLM.

That being said, I have reflected on how some of the dialogue happened during the gay marriage debate with shaming people who said that they thought marriage should be between a man and a woman only. To me, there were a few problems with that position, but especially that the main reason was religious belief, which should not be codified into law. I mean there’s a lot to unpack here and I don’t think what happened with gay rights is anything close to what’s happening with trans privileges activism. With the gay stuff, change took a lot of time and there was a lot of public discussion. I had debates in my classes in high school and at that time there was a mix of opinions and it was nothing like it is now with trans activism.

Do I give a shit if some bakery doesn’t want to make me a “gay cake?“ No, that should be their prerogative.

IMO “LGBTQ” activism lost the plot when it switched from tolerance to acceptance. I don’t know when this change happened but would be curious if others have insight. You basically can’t force people to “accept“ you. That’s mind control and I’m not interested in it. Homosexuality and bisexuality will always strike some people as being a little weird because it’s outside the norm and heterosexuals don’t know what it’s like to be this way, or always know what to do with us. I think a lot of this is about being same/sex-attracted being gender non-conforming and so they can’t figure out where we fit in and how they should regard us in different social interactions. I don’t always know how to regard you either, straights, so I really think that’s fine for them to have those feelings as long as we are still seeing each other’s humanity.