DiscussionHow to support LGB youth who have gender dysphoria

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.LGBDropTheT

TLDR: We should drop the T-- and we'll only be able to accomplish that once we address how to deal with gender dysphoria.

A conversation in another thread prompted me to make a post about this, just to get the ball rolling.

It occurs to me that one of the few things we can probably agree with trans rights activists on, is that gender dysphoria exists. Some trans-identified people have gender dysphoria, and I have seen many people on this sub have describe people they know who have gender dysphoria or their own experiences of it.

What I propose, is that we start trying to discuss some better solutions to dealing with gender dysphoria. The pseudoscience of "gender identity" is not going to go away until we adequately address what the best methods are for dealing with gender dysphoria.

Currently, here's where we stand:

TRA solution for gender dysphoria: Pretend that you are actually the opposite sex and can become the opposite sex, and get everyone else in the world to pretend with you. [**see note] (Collateral damage: people coopting the trans rights movement, such as a) serial rapists in prisons deciding they are the other sex too, b) people with fujoshi and autogynephilia paraphilias.)

LGBdroptheT solution for gender dysphoria: It will go away if you wait long enough, 9/10 times.

Here's the thing. It is TRUE that gender dysphoria eventually just fades as the lesbian/gay/bi person gets older, for the vast majority of people. BUT. That is a very hard sell to a teenage kid struggling with not only forming their identity as a person, but homophobia, misogyny if a woman, and tons of peer pressure.

My question to you all is: What are some ideas for how to actually help LGB people who from gender dysphoria?

My off the cuff ideas:

  • Talking to other LGB people who have had dysphoria in the past. Quite frankly I did not even realize that the other LGB people I know also have gender dysphoria experiences, until the trans debate took over our community and I talked about it with them. Young LGB people need to be able to SEE role models-- see LGB men and women who have had or do have gender dysphoria, just living their lives. I think a young person struggling with gender dysphoria, might perceive there being only one solution to their struggles, transgender ideology, and that is not true.

  • Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) to help the person deal with any internalized negative beliefs resulting from homophobia, misogyny, bullying, and any other mental health problems. (I believe gender dysphoria may actually be a byproduct of these things; but that may require more research.)

Thoughts?

edit: forgot a couple words

edit2: I thought I'd throw a short list of other good topics to talk about, that might be worth their own posts:

  • autism spectrum disorder (ASD) / neurodivergence, being LGB, and falling for the "gender identity" ideology ***

  • eating disorders and transgender identification

  • "sex dysphoria" vs. "gender dysphoria" and experiences of both among LGB people

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful responses!!

** For the most extreme cases of gender dysphoria, this may actually be helpful but research on the topic is both emerging and currently uncertain.

*** (people with ASD might be particularly susceptible due to a mind/body disconnect, having trouble identifying what "attraction" actually means-- and also particularly vulnerable because many adults don't want to accept their child has ASD?)

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[–]blahblahgcer 23 insightful - 2 fun23 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I had gender dysphoria (I thought I was nonbinary) and what I think saved me was regular talk therapy. I didn't even bring up dysphoria/trans stuff at all, but regular therapy to help with my issues/traumas did a number on my dysphoria. It's still there but a lot less noticeable.

That plus hearing from others about how woman/man isn't a feeling and from seeing other gender nonconforming people really flipped the switch for me.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's awesome it improved for you after therapy! It's interesting you mention trauma being related-- trans people have a (reported in research at least) high rate of negative mental health outcomes and psychopathology prevalence. I have often wondered how much trauma plays into the likelihood of developing gender dysphoria-- certainly the media way over-attributes the psychopathology among trans people to discrimination (one possible source but not the only source).

[–]Constantine 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The ultimate solution is to get kids to understand that all this “gender” stuff is just socially constructed, and they can be whoever the hell they want. I think that’s what ultimately “cured” my dysphoria issues and made me more comfortable with my body and with womanhood: my parents made a lot of mistakes, but trying to make me conform to strict notions of gender was not one of them. If it weren’t for that, there’s no doubt I would’ve been transed.

The issue is that we can’t mold the outside world like this. The reason I had dysphoria to begin with was because of the disconnect between what my parents told me I could be and what everyone else’s expectations were. So really, I think the best thing to do is just keep talking. The more these kids hear from voices of reason, the less likely they’ll be to do irreparable damage to their bodies and minds.

What’s going on with new guidelines in UK schools is a good start. I’m very worried about the US and Canada, though. We were headed on the right path with viewing gender as just socially constructed and telling kids they could be anything they want, but now there’s this giant swerve out to left field. I’m not sure how to fix this when no one in power is doing anything to stop it here.

Edit to add: we also need to be talking about autism. A disproportionate number of these kids with dysphoria have autism, and there are no doubt more undiagnosed. I was one of them. Kids with autism have a serious mind/body disconnect that makes them particularly susceptible to this ideology. But since the cause is autism, not “being born in the wrong body,” it’s not going to help them, which makes these kids a particular kind of victim here. Talking about this stuff shouldn’t be taboo. The same with AGP and rapid onset gender dysphoria. We need to be talking about these underlying issues and trying to identify and understand them better instead of just sweeping them under the rug.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The ultimate solution is to get kids to understand that all this “gender” stuff is just socially constructed, and they can be whoever the hell they want.

I might add that to my list in the post, if you don't mind. That's a belief that straight people as well as LGB can model, too.

but trying to make me conform to strict notions of gender was not one of them. If it weren’t for that, there’s no doubt I would’ve been transed.

I hear that. I came pretty close to being transed, but fortunately the JK Rowling stuff went down at a crucial time for me and opened my eyes to the misinformation going on.

The reason I had dysphoria to begin with was because of the disconnect between what my parents told me I could be and what everyone else’s expectations were. So really, I think the best thing to do is just keep talking. The more these kids hear from voices of reason, the less likely they’ll be to do irreparable damage to their bodies and minds.

Completely agree. I think you said this really well. There is a big parallel here as well between this and the end of u/HelloMomo's post.

we also need to be talking about autism. A disproportionate number of these kids with dysphoria have autism, and there are no doubt more undiagnosed. I was one of them. Kids with autism have a serious mind/body disconnect that makes them particularly susceptible to this ideology.

I'm really glad to hear you say this. I have often wondered at how little the influence of autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, or forms of psychopathology such as PTSD, are talked about in this community and other LGB ones.

Do you think people would be open to posts about it? I have thought about posting about it but kind of balked because I've never really seen people talk about it in s/lgbdropthet before.

[–]Constantine 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I might add that to my list in the post, if you don't mind. That's a belief that straight people as well as LGB can model, too.

Sure, use whatever you want!

I hear that. I came pretty close to being transed, but fortunately the JK Rowling stuff went down at a crucial time for me and opened my eyes to the misinformation going on.

I'm glad that she spoke out and that it helped you. She's making this all much more visible to everyday people who aren't dealing with this on a daily basis outside the Internet.

Completely agree. I think you said this really well. There is a big parallel here as well between this and the end of u/HelloMomo's post.

Yes, I noticed that comment as well. It's a bit of a double bind: not dwelling on it is what helps the individual, but at a societal level, ignoring it obviously isn't the answer.

I'm really glad to hear you say this. I have often wondered at how little the influence of autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, or forms of psychopathology such as PTSD, are talked about in this community and other LGB ones. Do you think people would be open to posts about it? I have thought about posting about it but kind of balked because I've never really seen people talk about it in s/lgbdropthet before.

I've talked about it a little bit in other GC spaces, and JKR has definitely talked about autism a lot when it comes to this, which doesn't surprise me since many of her characters could easily be read as on the spectrum (esp. Hermione, Luna, and Newt from the new movies). She seems to have a good understanding of ASD and I think this is a large part of what peaked her, from what I've read.

As for LGB, I've thought about making a post about it here, but have been a little wary about doing so. I posted a while back about questioning my sexuality and got a lot of helpful answers, but I do think a lot of people here don't understand really how big of a disconnect there is between body and mind for people like me, and how things that seem simple to other people (such as, if you are attracted to so and so you are this, this, or this) are not for us. For instance, this isn't as helpful to me because I don't experience sexual attraction the same way most people do because of my ASD.

The same goes for transing these kids (and young adults - I think many, especially women, are undiagnosed). The disconnect they feel is completely real, so to just say "no one has an innate sense of gender" isn't quite tracking the same issue, because we experience and process the world differently from most people. That doesn't mean that what we're experiencing is actually a gender mismatch, but when the genderspecials are the only ones talking about anything remotely like what we experience, it makes sense why a lot of people like me would jump on board in search of a magical solution. I don't know, this is getting kind of rambley, but I think what I'm trying to get at is that some of this stuff might contradict some of the orthodox LGB views on this sub--which for the most part I agree with--but sometimes it's not so simple.

Either way, I think we need to be having these tough conversations. This is hurting GNC people of all sorts, whether they be LGB, neurodivergent, or whatever. And threads like this are a good place to start. If you want, I could post some more coherent thoughts and start another thread and see what people have to say about it. That could be interesting.

[–]HelloMomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

we also need to be talking about autism. A disproportionate number of these kids with dysphoria have autism, and there are no doubt more undiagnosed.

I have a personal anecdote about this, though I don't quite know what to make of it yet. Recently I was helping my dad organize old stuff of his. He had this box of old self-help books, so I looked through it, and a couple of them were about Asperger's in girls, and how parents can help their daughters. I asked my dad about it, "Did you think I had Asperger's when I was younger?" And he said that around middle school they considered the possibility that I might, and talked to a therapist about it, though it was ultimately ruled that I didn't.

What I find really interesting about this story is that even though I didn't actually have autism, around the time when I had dysphoria, I was exhibiting autism-like behaviors anyways.

[–]Constantine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is interesting. I'm reading Irreversible Damage right now, and while the author doesn't talk much about autism (which is a major flaw I think, given the subject matter), she does explain over and over again how perfectly-healthy girls seem to become more and more mentally unstable as they go down the gender rabbit hole. I imagine this is a chicken and egg problem, but it's worth discussing.

[–]Treeofthoughts 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yep we do not talk about stuff!

I think in our push for acceptance and rights we minimised the issues our communites have. We want to project an impression of one big happy gay family, everyone is welcome and we are all doing well, and not talk about issues which affect us. I suspect most gay and lesbian people have at least considered - am i actually the opposite sex, is that what this feeling is? before realising we are just gay or lesbian (bi people may also feel the same way?). I think this happens because of social pressure to be straight. I am a pretty gender conforming male, so if it crossed my mind as a serious thought when i was a teen, it must cross other GNC peoples mind a lot more seriously. Also - school - it is a seriously unhealthy enviroment, and when i was there is was a highly "gendered", sexist enviroment with these principals heavily policed by the other kids, society, and not really helped by teachers.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think in our push for acceptance and rights we minimused the issues our communites have.

That's a really good point, and makes a lot of sense. I'm sure people saw getting legal rights as the most urgent problem of their day-- but given that, it is actually unsurprising that the whole trans debate has resurfaced raging. The question was when, not whether, it happened.

I suspect most gay and lesbian people have at least considered - am i actually the opposite sex, is that what this feeling is? before realising we are just gay or lesbian (bi people may also feel the same way?).

You know.. I think that's the first time I've ever considered how widespread gender dysphoria might be, even mild forms. I just kind of assumed it was something only a few LGB people deal with, you know?

Add to that, the fact that even if a gay/lesbian person with gender dysphoria is able to make their way to LG spaces, the people there might be scornful about talking about it-- "I don't want to hear you talking about hating your body or wanting to be more like the body of the opposite sex, that's the most un-gay/un-lesbian thing I've ever heard" (not sure how this might play out for bisexual people). And then gender dysphoria would be even less spoken about.

[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think we do shut down difficult discussions between ourselves. A lot of us have had difficulties - mental health is a huge thing in LGB communities. For example - it is very frowned upon to say you would rather not be gay. I understand why many of us do not want to hear this, if your someone who has come out the other side of that, going over it can be hurtful, it also doesnt align with our politics - gay is good (and it is)!

I suspect gender disphoria in LGB people is similar. The reason I raise it is that it briefly seriously crossed my mind. Yet it is a pretty ridiculous idea in my case, I match my sterotyped gender relatively closely, no one would think I might be a girl, but the simple fact that I liked boys and yet was a boy was enough GNC for me to have considered that possibility. It would be interesting to klnow how many of us at least examined the idea that we might have been trans when we were younger? In my case it was not because I was dysphoric, it was because of how deeply ingrained the idea that boys MUST like girls was.

[–]les4leshomonormative 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I do think a lot of LGB people have gender confusion, and it's even worse now that people are defining gender so nebulously. Girls especially grow up hating our bodies and unfortunately now that the narrative is that everybody has an innate gender identity, more and more confused kids are getting pushed toward identifying as "nonbinary" just for not feeling like they have lady brains or manly essences.

Got me as well, though! I was jealous of men's bodies (or maybe just athletic abilities) for most of my adolescence lol

[–]Treeofthoughts 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That it is much worse for girls, particularly those who are also SSA I have noticed for quite a while. TBF I have been a fairly typical man in respects to this - not my problem, don't need to think. But recently I have realised 1. How bad it is and 2. that actually I DO need to think about it, it pervades so much of society that it affects me daily and those i know.

It is actually logical for girls to be deeply uncomfortable with the gendered expectations of them, and to reject them. They are just out and out bad, and if your same sex attracted as a girl - even the crumbs which are left to women are of no comfort (the loving caring husband/family consolation prize). But making girls feel they need to be a boy for not wanting to be second class citizens, and wanting to date other girls, seems like a really bad way for us to go.

[–]HelloMomo 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sometimes people talk about "gender dysphoria" (uncomfortable with the social aspects) and "sex dysphoria" (uncomfortable with your physical body) as interrelated but distinct things. When I was like 14, I had what I think could be called sex dysphoria, although not gender dysphoria. I've more or less gender conforming, but I really hated my body after puberty, felt out-of-place in it, felt like it wasn't mine. Basically this was just a reaction to puberty (of course if your body up and changes on you without your permission you're gonna be uncomfortable and ill at ease in it for a while). I don't know how much my experience had in common with "usual experiences" of dysphoria, but given that I was exposed to trans ideas and stuff, I played with the idea of a non-binary identity around that time.

The other big part of it was anorexia. Ultimately I stopped because I thought anorexia was something "stupid straight girls did because they want to look like barbie" and that was so not me. If I had known how common disordered eating is in trans populations, I probably would've gone full steam ahead with that.

The paradox is that on a societal level, ignoring this problem that plagues many isn't a good approach, but on an individual level, ignoring it/not obsessing about it is probably the thing that helps most.

[–]les4leshomonormative 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The paradox is that on a societal level, ignoring this problem that plagues many isn't a good approach, but on an individual level, ignoring it/not obsessing about it is probably the thing that helps most.

This is a great way to put it. Because nobody talks about the discomfort so many young people have in their bodies, they feel abnormal, which I think is why a lot of them end up obsessing over it or taking it to extremes once they find others who suffer the same way

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey, I meant to respond to this the other day but I REALLY appreciate your comment! I agree that it's important to distinguish between "gender dysphoria" and "sex dysphoria". In fact, I feel like I have experienced "sex dysphoria" myself but never really related to the whole idea of "gender dysphoria", at least how trans-rights activists describe it, anyway.

Completely agree @ anorexia, as well. I have not read the research literature on it myself, yet, but-- maybe it is even worth its own post, eating disorders and transgender identification.

The paradox is that on a societal level, ignoring this problem that plagues many isn't a good approach, but on an individual level, ignoring it/not obsessing about it is probably the thing that helps most.

This is a fantastic observation. I will be mulling this one over for a while. :)

[–]LeoneOkada 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I kinda had gender dysphoria has a teen and now, it's gone. Turns out I'm just gender non confirming. Now, I just like being androgynous.

[–]Kai_Decadence 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The solution is simple. You talk to them but more imporrtantly, I wholeheartedly believe that gender nonconforming adults can be really helpful with this. Part of the reason these kids struggle with dysphoria is because they feel like they have no one to relate with, they feel alone, confused, and scared and there's only so much they can do to try to deal with it but if they have no one who understands what they're going through, it just doesn't really help. But if these gender nonconforming kids who are feeling dysphoric were able to talk with older gender nonconforming people and have like a supportive mentor/counselor type of relationship, I just know it would make a difference. I've talked with a few gender nonconforming teenagers who were questioning if they were trans and simply just letting them talk and then sharing some advice and wisdom, it helped them. Because we gender nonconforming adults, a lot of us were gender nonconforming kids and we remember what it was like.

[–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Hey all, new to this thread. You'll have to pardon my "invasion" of your space, as I am a straight male, but these questions have been of interest to me for a long time now, given that when I was adolescent (a long time ago now...), I would have been at risk for the trans trend (fortunately for me, it hadn't even been conceived of when I was that age).

The letter that I think gets too little attention and which could play a more significant part of a move toward a stable gender equilibrium is "Q".

The debate has gotten sidetracked into trans vs. cis (which are themselves binary constructs), and this is the loss. For me at least, queer is a more powerful concept, because it really gets at the heart of the issue, which is that in our minds there is no pure male or female. While in our bodies, biology exists and I am a firm believer in giving that objective truth the respect it is due, in our minds, there are infinite shades of behaviors we all (from both sexes, from all sexualities) exhibit. Some behaviors were traditionally associated with one sex or the other, and thus the problem. But "queer" to me gets at that group of people (where I fit as a teen) who have a lot of the behaviors of the opposite sex, but who are not part of that group.

Long story short, we (gay people, straight people, bi people, whatever) need to really be hitting the message that queer is okay. It's alright to be one sex with behaviors that are more common among the other. It doesn't mean we are the other sex. It just means behavior and sex have never been as linked as people (either militant straight or militant trans) make them.

Behaving whatever way you behave (and associating with whomever you want to associate with) is perfect, within the body you are given. You don't need to assault your divinely-provided body to give yourself permission to behave a certain way.

Support Queer. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance for not attacking me, "an invader". ;)

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No way. I don't want to take on a label that means "weirdo", and the Q is already firmly attached to the T.

Masculinity is the world trying to make soldiers out of boys. Femininity is the world trying to make mothers and submissive wives out of girls. They are not innate, and so there are myriad exceptions, standouts and outliers. Rather than making these people feel bad about themselves, acknowledge that they are actually part of an emerging EMANCIPATION from being merely cannon fodder and subordinated baby makers! War and overpopulation have grown to the extent that they are no longer socially necessary, they have negated entirely to the point they threaten all life on the planet! And this is apparently having unconscious impacts on human sexuality and social relating. And idiots are coming up with ignorant theories based on unexamined conventional assumptions of what it means to be a man or a woman. Add a hefty dose of academic postmodernism which questions objectivity itself, and you get institutional legitimization of something absurd and deeply reactionary.

[–]StillLessons 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Interesting. This goes to the more general philosophical problem that has faced humanity forever. We attach meanings to words, and each of us - as an individual - attaches a different emotional weight. Apparently, the word "queer" gives you a strong emotional reaction. I was thinking of it in more of an intellectual descriptive way, with less emotional baggage. This is why the "identity" movement is problematic from the get-go. Every label we attach to anyone, anything, or any idea has this inherent difficulty embedded in it.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Queer is basically the n word for homosexuals. Older gay men are deeply offended by it.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey! If you read the sidebar, it actually says that allies are welcome here as well, you don't have to be LGB to discuss. :)

Several people have already responded to you about why we typically reject the term "queer" here, but let me put it to you another way.

Among women (females) and men (males)-- there is a lot of variation in behaviors and appearance. For example, take masculinity. Imagine that each group, females and males, has a Normal distribution curve, like so, with "females" as the bell curve on the left and "males" the bell curve on the right: https://imgur.com/HdLNBAy

If the x-axis is masculinity, then you can clearly see that:

  • The average male (top of the bell curve on the right bell curve) is more masculine than an average woman (top of the bell curve on the left bell curve).

  • There is significant overlap between the two bell curves-- meaning that some women are more masculine than many men and some men are more feminine than many women.

The fact that some men act/appear more feminine than some women, and that some women act/appear more masculine than some men, is a simple fact of nature. Using the word "queer", in the way that you describe it, teaches children that it is NOT NORMAL to be on the masculine side of the bell curve if you're a woman or the feminine side of the bell curve if you're a man. That is extremely damaging and harmful. Full stop.

Furthermore-- "queer" has no definition. It is so vague that it is impossible to assume any meaning if someone tells you they are queer.

You say:

But "queer" to me gets at that group of people (where I fit as a teen) who have a lot of the behaviors of the opposite sex, but who are not part of that group.

But I say: Having a lot of behaviors of the opposite sex is NORMAL. It sounds like you are talking about being "gender-nonconforming" (GNC). The problem here is not that being GNC is bad, or that we shouldn't talk about being GNC (we should! Sounds like you have an interesting perspective of your own to share). The problem is that "queer" does not mean "gender-nonconforming", it literally has no definition.

Does that help it all? I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, by the way. We can only learn from each other if we talk about this stuff.

edit: couple words.

[–]Constantine 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most of us hate the word "queer" here. It was used as a slur for a long time and has now been taken over by the T wackos, without the permission of LGB people. Anyone who calls themselves "queer" is a surefire way of knowing they're all wrapped up in this nonsense. It's also an overused and ill-defined academic term that's inextricably linked with "critical theory" and all of the worst aspects of academia that are now becoming more mainstream.

Why must we have a special word for our minds not being sexed? That's just called being human. Let LGB just be LGB. Very clearly-defined terms that have nothing to do with "gender" at the end of the day.

edit: word

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely agree with this response.

[–]les4leshomonormative 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You definitely are new here lmao. I feel like there isn't anybody here that would say that "queer" is better than trans vs. cis. It's a slur against LGB people and even though the trans lobby has co-opted it to mean anybody with genderfeels, the first transsexuals to be called queer were almost called queer because they were perceived as homosexuals

I agree with what you're saying to a point. There's not really any such thing as a "male" or "female" brain, just experiences and socializations more common for people with male and female bodies, and sex and behavior/sex and personality aren't intrinsically linked. By their own definitions, trans people have basically made it impossible to be cisgender. But honestly I'd rather lose the cis/trans binary without replacing it with a nonbinary spectrum. We're all still either men or women, we can hit the message that it's alright not to be a sex stereotype without pretending that we're "queer" if we do, we don't need more labels and we especially don't need more labels that are just repurposing the labels we're already annoyed with lol

[–]StillLessons 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hehehe. Okay. Message received. I have indeed never waded in these waters before, and my ignorance is immediately revealed. I genuinely apologize for entering a field with basically no history and pretending I had some insight. Clearly I was wrong. I should have spent a lot more time lurking and reading actually to learn something rather than shooting my mouth off.

Thank you to those who responded for being civil in demonstrating my lack of understanding in this area. A good reminder to me that more often than not, keeping one's mouth shut is the best policy.

A happy day to all.

[–]les4leshomonormative 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey, no worries! I think a lot of us are just defensive of this space and wary of bad-faith visitors lol. Thank you for being respectful in return

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it’s a good reminder of why it’s important to ask questions and to have spaces where we can ask questions. I generally agree with the response that was given to you (i.e. that if queer is just non-adherence to sex stereotypes, which is what it seems do be, then why have that description if it’s just how all humans are) but I have no problem with you asking the question. If you don’t ask, you don’t learn.

I will also add one more thing to why I can’t stand “queerness” being pushed on us. And this is not to imply that you are pushing it on us. You’re merely asking a question. The media and LGBT orgs are though. Anyway, we are a varied bunch in here. Some of us appear to be more in conformity with gender stereotypes than others, but all of us share the most gender-conforming trait there is: same-sex attraction. So we look and act all different ways and generally want to get rid of the notion that gay is a feeling, style, or political or ideological belief system. Homosexual or bisexual merely describe our pattern of attraction, no more, no less. Other than the inherent consequences to our lives of that same-sex attraction, the rest is just stereotypes. We are the ones who really just want to live our lives in peace. People who tend to double down on labeling themselves “queer” may claim they do, but they generally want the opposite. They want to be celebrated, exalted, regarded as oppressed, seen as special and enlightened, held up as knowers of truth most people don’t have access to because they’re not marginalized enough, etc. There is constant attention-seeking behavior inherent in “queerness.” It’s right there in the name. They don’t want to be seen as ordinary. They want to tear down institutions and build new ones that center them. This is generally the opposite of what we want, which is freedom to be ourselves, not to force anyone else to do, say, or think anything.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It is TRUE that gender dysphoria eventually just fades as the lesbian/gay/bi person gets older.

Certainly not universally.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree, that's why I said 9/10 times. I can edit it for clarity, though.

[–]luckystar 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly feel like we just need to go back to before the extreme transgender activism -- maybe to before about 10 or 15 years ago? There was a time when LGB acceptance was pretty high (all things considered), marriage equality was becoming the norm in more and more countries, suburbanites happily watched Ellen and Will&Grace, and one could be a "metrosexual" guy or a "tomboy" girl without thinking they were literally no longer a member of their birth sex. There have always been a small number of people, used to be called transsexual, almost exclusively HSTS(mostly gay but some lesbians too). They would present as the opposite sex because it made them feel more comfortable, but they would know there were limits -- eg they wouldn't change in a public shower room, or try to play on a woman only sport team etc etc because the whole point was NOT wanting to call attention to oneself. There were honestly zero problems and I have friends like this to this day that I have zero problems with.

The problem overwhelmingly comes from straight AGP men, usually white, who have disproportionate economic and social power to shift the narrative, but honestly have basically nothing in common with the LGBT community. They're middle aged men who get their kicks from wearing their wives' panties. If anything they're the most heterosexual and strict on gender roles, because they tend to be hyper masculine men with very misogynistic traditionalist views (that's why pretending to be a woman is so erotic for them -- how could there be anything more humiliating than being a lowly woman?). They overtake all the LGBT organizations and focus on their wants. They also deliberately provoke women (esp. lesbians). To a lesser extent there are the straight women LARPing as men from their yaoi porn, but being women nobody really listens to them. IMO the problem is at least 98% with the AGPs because their agenda is fundamentally a conservative straight male one.