all 33 comments

[–]julesburm1891 35 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 0 fun36 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can see where you’re coming from. The problem is that both religious fundamentalists and TRAs consistently use the term to imply being gay is a choice. When I had to go to conversion therapy as a teenager a popular phrase was, “I understand you have a sexual preference, but god doesn’t want you to make that choice.” Now we have TRAs telling people to examine their sexual and genital preferences to make room for members of the opposite sex.

The problem isn’t the phrase. It’s the context in which it’s often used by homophobes.

[–]Shadow_Lurker 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Their premises might be different, but the endgame is the same: forcing people to fuck and form relationships with people they don't want to.

Also, fun fact: most "reparative therapy" christian boot camps are filled with rape and sexual harassment. It's ironic how institutions that promise to "cure" homosexuality haven't even managed to develop a method that works on their own staff.

Funny isn't?!

[–]8bitgay 29 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I used to not think much of it. I think sexual orientation is better but sexual preference was an acceptable synonym.

But nowadays sexual preference is often used with undertones of genital preference. So I get skeptical when I hear someone using it.

[–]fr_bandersnatchghey... 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Preference" implies the liking of one alternative over one or more other alternatives. The subject is amenable to all options but with a liking of some over others. For those of us who are homosexual, one sex is amenable and the other is not. There is only one choice, one orientation: our own sex or nothing. I can choose to transgress my orientation; living in the rural US, there's no shortage of miserable closeted gay men in heterosexual marriages, forced there by their homophobic situations or upbringings. My father was left-handed but the nuns beat right-handed handwriting into him. In both these cases, behavior is under duress and does not reflect the subject's true orientation.

"Sexual preference" can only truly apply to bisexuals as they are sexually amenable to both males and females.

[–][deleted] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I look at it like this: If someone gave me a choice between almonds and peanuts, I will choose almonds because I have a severe peanut allergy. It's not that I 'prefer' almonds over peanuts. I actually cannot eat peanuts because of my allergy. There is no preference involved here. If I could eat peanuts maybe I would like them too, but I can't, so using the word 'preference' here is inaccurate.

I imagine this is how monosexuals feel. They don't 'prefer' the sex they're attracted to, that's the only option they can be aroused by.

Now, if someone were to offer me a choice between almonds and cashews, I would pick cashews, but this time it's a matter of preference. I like both, but without any seasonings or any additional processing, I like raw cashews more than I like raw almonds. However under different circumstances (like almond butter vs cashew butter) I would pick almonds. Now we're discussing a preference between two things I like.

The whole preference thing only really applies to bisexuals imo.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Preference is the word of choice for two toxic, homophobic ideologies: religion and transgenderism. I'll stick with orientation thanks all the same. I do not prefer men over women, I have zero sexual and romantic attraction to the latter. Perhaps some genuine bisexual people may be comfortable with descriptors like "bi with a preference for women" but I doubt they feel they need a flag to wave about it.

[–]diapason 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To me, it sounds like a way of describing the preference that bisexuals often have for one sex or the other, like for instance I prefer women, but others might have a preference for men, (and some don't have a preference) etc

I have however heard it used sometimes by conservative religious types as a more dismissive synonym for sexual orientation, so I could see how someone could take offense in that context, especially if they're gay/lesbian

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. This shift in language has fostered woke homophobia. It’s not just that preference implies choice, but that it implies a greater liking between two acceptable options. That’s not what heterosexuality or homosexuality are. It has been used to foster woke homophobia because it is the root of the belief that terfy lesbians and gays are being transphobic by not opening ourselves up to the opposite sex.

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not offended by it necessarily, but it's not accurate. Sexual orientation feels more accurate, because preference implies it's a choice, like you said picking food off a menu. I didn't have a choice in this, and hated myself for so many years for not being able to become attracted to men. I am solely attracted to women. Can't speak for wokesters.

[–]crodish 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Very. If I could have a "normal heterosexual lifestyle" that didn't involve being ostracized and having to pretend this side of me doesn't exist? Why would I pick hard mode. The fact that it's circled right back around to "it's a preference, you CAN choose who to be attracted to" is such a backwards landslide for LGB rights.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

No. It's not offensive. Inaccurate? Yes. It's not a "preference." I don't "prefer" men. I "prefer" to stay 50 feet away from men at all times. I prefer not to discuss my sexuality. I'd prefer to, if I had a choice, be straight.

But calling it offensive is dumb and shows how overdramatic and ridiculous some people are.

[–]Jillyjanejan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

honestly, I think you're the one being a little over-dramatic. The definition of offensive is simply "causing someone to feel resentful, upset, or annoyed." I think we can all agree that it's annoying when people insist that our sexual orientation is just a preference or a lifestyle choice, so "offensive" is a fitting word.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If "sexual preference" is offensive by that logic, then so is "gay" because I find it "upsetting, resentful, or annoying." But this sub sure doesn't like it when I say "Don't call me a gay or a queer, I am a homosexual" and would laugh at me if I dared to claim that "gay" was hurtful.

[–]szalinskikidproblematic androphile 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Preference implies that there're options in the first place, and TRAs (just like religious fundamentalists) use this to undermine the immutability of homosexuality. Which also pushes the idea that homosexuality is a voluntarily chosen identity, and only bigotry (transphobia) keeps us from changing ourselves. Identity is something you can critically examine and challenge, so of course it's in the TRA's best interest to push this new narrative. Don't fall for it. You give them this small change of our definitions and next thing you know they compare the sexual preference for blond hair to our sexual orientation. If you're homosexual, opposite attraction simply isn't an option. What do you "prefer" about your homosexual attraction, and what exactly do you prefer it over? And what does it have to do with you BEING homosexual? I we're talking about the objective state of my existence, then I don't 'prefer' to be a man, I AM a man. I AM gay. Being something and preferring something are two different things, they're not synonymous.

[–]motss-pb 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was kind of surprised by the number of people saying that the word "preference" is not offensive to them when it's the very word TRAs have been using to dismantle our sexual boundaries and redefine homosexuality for us. But then I remembered that this whole thing is about the ACB hearing right now. Liberals are just using gay people to politically dunk on her. I get it. My sexual orientation is still not a preference. I wish we could agree on that in spite of our party affiliations.

[–]filbs111[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes the hearing thing is what prompted my question, but FWIW, I'm not really politically affiliated, not a US citizen, but do object to what appears to be a bizarre manipulation of language for partisan political ends.

What I appear to disagree with most people here (to my surprise!) is simply how to interpret the word "preference"!

[–]our_team_is_winning 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not offensive but maybe misleading.

These days "preference" seems to be used like "everything is acceptable, but would you like one more?" Like if they're going to seat you in a restaurant (back when we could eat out!) they might say they had a booth and a table available, do you have a preference?

If you say "I prefer women," it almost sounds like "but a man is acceptable too."

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It offends me in the way that it's nonsense. My sexuality isn't a preference. I would argue that nobody's sexuality is a 'preference' even those whose sexualities are fluid don't 'choose' to have fluid sexualities.

Bisexuals, pansexuals, etc may have a preference about which sex they prefer for whatever reason, but they still don't choose to be bisexual or pansexual.

So, yeah, the concept of 'sexual preference' used to describe sexual orientation is a misnomer at best and utterly offensive bollocks at worst.

[–]filbs111[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hmm. Perhaps this is a USA thing. In the UK at least, (AFAICT), sexual preference refers to who you prefer to have sexual relations with, and where, if you state a preference for a over b, doesn't mean you would necessarily appreciate b as a second choice. Example: I would prefer to win the lottery than to be flayed!

[–]Ladis_Wascheharuum 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Yep, I'm in the minority with you. I think "preference" is the most accurate description. I don't choose what I prefer, I just do. Preference doesn't mean I'm fine with other options. I prefer having million dollars to being totally broke. Obviously one of those is something I don't like or want at all, but the contrast is still a preference.

Meanwhile I think "orientation" is a silly word. Makes me think of holding a compass and a map and looking at the sun trying to figure out which cardinal direction I'm oriented towards. There's nothing permanent implied by the word orientation either. I change my spatial orientation by spinning around in my chair.

But we live in a world where politics stakes its flags on every bit of vocabulary. I think this battle is lost, for now.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I prefer having million dollars to being totally broke.

So that sentence doesn’t read as sarcastic to you?

[–]filbs111[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Finally, a kindred spirit! "orientation" makes some kind of sense if we plot lust for the opposite sex vs lust for the same sex on a 2d graph. (like political compass!). Straight people can be North, Gay people East, general misanthropes South West.

[–]Lesbianese 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't find it offensive but isn't my phrase of choice, would rather use sexuality.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Does this seems like complete bullshit to anyone else? I have a preference for certain foods and will choose food from the menu in a restaurant based on this preference. Whether my taste is acquired is another question, but the preference and the choice are different things. I could choose to order food I don't like, but it's hard to like food I don't like.

This is exactly why the word "preference" is so incorrect, though. Yes you can prefer to order the foods you like-- but the fact that you LIKE one food and are repulsed by another is not, itself, a preference that could go one way or another, it's a fact. (And if it's not a fact, and you actually do like both foods but to different degrees-- then you're probably bisexual, to return the metaphor to sexual orientation.)

It does not seem like bullshit to me; it makes perfect sense. I think many of the people repeating the phrases "sexual preference" and "genital preference" are well-meaning, though, so I try to talk to them first before jumping to assumptions about their intentions.

Words matter, because TRAs are trying to control the vocabulary with which we are allowed to even talk about our experiences. That is why they are obsessed with trying to change the definition of bisexuality and homosexuality in the dictionary. It is harder for us to express outrage against the TRA homophobia when our medium of communication is being policed.

[–]filbs111[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is more complicated than I initially expected. IMO I'm well meaning, but think both sexual preference and genital preference terms makes sense, and there should be no shame in having such preferences. People should be able to refuse sex with others for any reason or no reason at all.

Regarding restaurants and food, I am offered two plates of food, plate A being my favourite food, and plate B contains something dreadful. To say "I prefer plate A over plate B" is factually correct, though misleading if said in response to the question "what do you want for dinner".

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hope I didn't come across as attacking you, if so I apologize :) I think it's an important question worth asking and talking about.

To say "I prefer plate A over plate B" is factually correct

Ok, I think I get what you mean. It is literally correct. However, these statements are also correct for the exact same reason:

To say "I prefer to have a disease-curing pill (A) over being forced to drink bleach (B)"

To say "I prefer to not be tortured (A) than to be tortured (B)"

The point I am trying to make with these two examples, is that colloquially, the word "preference" implies that both options are benign (will not harm your health). You never hear someone with a peanut allergy say, for example, "I prefer to eat a dish without peanuts". Doing so would harm one's health and so using the word "preference" in that context would give an inaccurate picture of the risk associated with that option.

Similarly, it is bad for the health of a homosexual person to force them to try to have sex with someone of the sex that they are not interested in.

The word "preference" is used intentionally by many TRAs to communicate the following: "Oh, it actually isn't harmful for homosexuals to be forced to date/have sex with the opposite gender; it's a benign option, it wouldn't hurt them". That is, indeed, the very same philosophy employed in conversion therapy.

And if you want proof of TRAs talking about how "gay men need to get over it and like pussy" and "lesbians need to try dick"-- then there is a lot.

edit: List of TRA hate receipt repositories - https://www.saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/5x6k/trans_people_and_trans_rights_activists_being/

Just one of those repositories (about gay men): https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN6bUPUugEzmNmC-nZTunsVPUtgAuMANMmoVSD1j5gmROqY5E53VSCukHKc8zSRHA?key=bTMzMDNKeC1vbkFkRjlqTHJKM284RU1IQ3JkSlF3

edit2: The one interesting difference between conservative conversion therapy, and woke conversion therapy, is that with the conservative flavor, the "best" sexual orientation is straight but in woke flavor, the "best" sexual orientation is bisexual. (Or pansexual. Or omnisexual, depending on who you talk to. Sorry, actual bisexuals, you're cool. <3)

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't see it as being inherently offensive. I prefer to go out on dates and have sex with women because I'm attracted to them. Google defines preference as "a greater liking for one alternative over another or others". I can see how that fits. I think people are more annoyed at how the phrase is being used in a political context, however that's not enough of a reason to dislike it and seems like language policing to me.

[–]lmaonope333 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My sexual orientation is homosexual female. My sexual preference is tall, feminine, assertive women. It could change though. It's not impossible for me to find a short gentle butch woman sexually attractive. But my sexual orientation is fixed, I will always be exclusively attracted to women

[–]Aurelius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It isn't offensive. Not one little bit.

[–]a_blue_bird 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, it's not.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've always seen preference as liking one thing over another, but not to the degree that you couldn't go with the other thing if you didn't have the choice. But then again, looking at old TV shows and stuff people have used the word preference when talking about their sexual orientation for a long time.

'Genital preference' is the one that grinds my gears more because it's usually said in conjunction with a variation of "see, I'm not obsessed with dick, to me there's more to a guy than that" But again that's not necessarily an issue with the word preference itself.

[–]cervix 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd say context matters. The recent thing with the US supreme justice court nominee was not. The context told me she meant "preference" in a way that's interchangeable with "orientation". However, if a religious leader or a transgender person uses the word "preference" to describe homosexuality, it's sus

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It goes both ways, but ultimately I resent it's usage because homophobes from both sides are using it to convince homosexual females and males to form heterosexual romantic/sexual relationships. The whole "preference" thing applies better to bisexual females and males, imo.