Is there anything I can do for gay men as a lesbian?

submitted by just_lesbian_things from self.LGBDropTheT

I don't recall seeing this topic, and since this is supposedly a coalition or something, I thought I'd ask. Is there anything I, a singular lesbian, can do for gay men? (Not going to speak for other lesbians because they may or may not have the time/energy/desire for this)

I'm starting to see a lot of harassment from heterosexual women who identify as trans coming up against gay men. I don't interact with a lot of het women, and I'm not welcome in any LGBT spaces in my vicinity. I also don't interact with a lot of gay men because we're on opposite sides of this community and don't have anything in common. In short, I'm socially removed from this issue as a whole and am unlikely to be faced with it. But if I were to stumble across any sketchy female trans people talking or acting inappropriately, is there anything I am green-flagged to say? Do I shame her and call her a creep? Do I politely contest her perspective? Or do I shut up and let gay men sort it out by themselves?

all 19 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–][deleted] 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

This might sound harsh - but no. You are limited as an individual, it's not feasible for you to go around "saving" others in some way or another, and frankly it often comes off as overstepping.

You don't HAVE to do anything. You also, though, don't need anyone's permission to say what you want. If a FTM is pissing you off and you want to bite back - go for it. But don't claim you're doing it as a service to gay men, because that starts to get super weird and... what's the word? White knighting?

Also gay men aren't a hivemind, so, we're not all gonna feel the same anyway. I personally find FTMs annoying but a lot of them are just dumb teenagers, and there's a lot more real issues worthy of my attention and anger to be honest.

Plus trans people tend to do stuff for attention. Stop feeding them attention (positive OR negative) and they tend to back down. I'm in a social discord with quite a few FTMs and nonbinaries, even "it's transphobic to be gay" ones, but I've been in there being mostly myself & occasionally referencing my penis-centered sexuality casually, and honestly, none of them have ever tried to start something with me. Don't challenge them, but don't "validate" them, act your normal self around them and chances are they'll move on from it too.

[–]just_lesbian_things[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't have to do anything. If it were up to me, I wouldn't say anything, because I don't think it has anything to do with me and it is not my place. I'm not going to "save" anyone, but if there happens to be something you would prefer I say/don't say or approach you'd prefer I take/don't take, I would do so, not on behalf of anyone but myself. Obviously, I'm not asking for a coherent, official response from all gay men either, I'm just polling to see if there would be a consensus or a commonality.

I think male trans people's take over of lesbian spaces is more aggressive than what you've described of female trans people. It isn't possible to just ignore male trans people in female spaces. Their behavior, especially the female attracted male trans people, are quite aggressive and predatory. They don't just want attention, they get off on sexually violating women and they don't back down. I appreciate your advise and perspective but I don't think it translates very well to my own situation.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think pushing LGB over QT nonsense helps all of us.

[–]just_lesbian_things[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. This was more pertaining to any details I should keep in mind or faux pas I should watch out for if I were to speak to any women who are identifying as gay men.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

As a follow-up question to the OP, gay men, do you find the term "fag hag" appropriate for non-gay men to use? Like describing this female trans incel type as the evolution of the "fag hag."

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's ridiculous, cringy, and disrespectful for sure - but I personally don't believe it to be a literal hate crime. Partly because most girls who identify that way tend to be young and eventually grow out of it.

Annoying, sure, but not a big issue when there's so much truly wrong in the world to pay attention to.

[–]fuck_reddit 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm more of an individualist, so my advice would be to have to make positive changes in your personal interactions. I have found it much easier to trap flies with honey than vinegar. Polite questions are better at undermining someone's perception of the world than pointed critique. So I guess, if you encounter a trans man, act supportive and polite and ask questions about their identity, feelings, attitudes towards gay men, how gay men see themselves etc.

[–]just_lesbian_things[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can't say I'm well versed in how heterosexual women or gay men see themselves, but I can certainly strive to be more diplomatic. Thank you for your input, I will definitely keep that in mind.

[–]8bitgay 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think we all might be supporting each other, sometimes even without knowing. I can say that whenever I see lesbians being open about their sexuality and defending it, it's really encouraging, just like when I see gay guys doing the same.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Is there anything I am green-flagged to say?

I'm not of the mind that you need my permission, or any other gay man's permission to talk about the issues that we face. It's not about talking for us, but showing empathy for our struggles and solidarity with us like the LGB have always done for each other.

Personally, my view of the whole "you cant talk about these issues screeeee" is that it's a divide and conquer tactic intended to keep us fighting people who just want to help us, for the imaginary transgression of just wanting to help. But savior complexes don't seem to be as big of a thing in my country.

As for what you can do, just keep being yourself and don't be cowed to this wave of progressive homophobia. Keep advocating for the truth when it comes up in conversation (Don't mention it unprovoked, it may come across as preachy and people have had more than enough preaching for a lifetime over these past few years)

If I saw a transwoman acting inappropriately in public directly towards an uncomfortable gay man, I'd step in and stick up for him. Online however, I usually just DM people I see being dogpiled for being gay with a message of support as there's no point even trying in the places where TRAs go wild with their attacks on homosexuals and lesbians because your statements will just be deleted so it looks like the stunning and brave trans beat back the awful mean twansphobes uwu (Buy pills, kids!)

With stuff like this, it's all about being a small part of something bigger. One person isn't going to stop nu-homophobia overnight, but if all of us keep sticking up for ourselves and each other and spreading the truth about for the general public to see, we'll continue to see the shift that we have.

[–]GarageCar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

savior complexes

I agree so much with this part of your comment, like you have no idea:

my view of the whole "you cant talk about these issues screeeee" is that it's a divide and conquer tactic intended to keep us fighting people who just want to help us, for the imaginary transgression of just wanting to help.

There are people who (wrongly, as I believe) think being saved is 'creepy' and 'weird'. And we can even see them in this comment section. At least my interpretation of this comment is they think it's 'wrong' to save someone: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/6ydx/is_there_anything_i_can_do_for_gay_men_as_a/qfof

I don't agree with that. And believe they and people who think like them are fighting the wrong people here.

I tend to want to assist and save gay men the best I can if I see they face issues, even if they can handle it themselves because it shows I am supportive, eventhough I'm a lesbian, e.g I shut down women who talk about wanting to do something to gay men, are homophobic towards gay men, etc, whenever I see them. Mainly because everytime I had an issue, nobody helped me or even asked if I needed help, and I've started to hate most people because of their lack of willingness to help ...

When someone is drowning, people take their phones out of their pockets and film it to share the video with the others. When someone gets bullied, people watch and then leave. How is that 'good'? How is not helping not 'weird' or 'creepy'?

I don't view being a savior as a bad thing, but as a good thing. I know if I were in a situation where I could handle things myself, and didn't want help, it would still be nice of someone to stand up for me and help me. Not stare and stand by.

It's like when my neighbor brings me a portion of the cake she bakes whenever she does. I never ask for or want the cake, but still I find it a really nice gesture, I find it really kind that she comes all the way to bring some of the cake to me and our other neighbors.

People might think that by being helped they are weak ... With their superiority complex, they think they can deal with everything on their own and are too good to need the help of others. But we are humans, we are breakable, we are weak. Even paper breaks our skin. We break easily, so my view is we should accept that we are in need of help. That we can't be 'tough' everyday. And that we shouldn't be ungrateful when there is a helping hand.

Some gay men might be confused by me, a lesbian, helping them. They might think 'we have nothing in common'. But I think we do ... Yes gay men are men who like men, lesbians are women who like women. On the surface one would think we have no similarities, but we do. For one we are humans. We are both same-sex attracted and in the battle against the TQs and other forms of homophobes.

I believe women (trans men included) should leave gay men alone and stop invading their spaces. Gay men need their own spaces. Like we lesbians need our own spaces.

Even if gay men can deal with these women, and are stronger, that is no excuse for women to invade the spaces of gay men. Just as it is still wrong for a smaller man to invade the space of a bigger woman who can defend herself and knows martial arts.

I want to show these women who invade the spaces of gay men that even a woman can't stand their nonsense, let alone a man. And that I will stick by the side of gay men to throw them out of their gay man only spaces until no woman is left to bother them anymore.

Yes on our own we can't do much. But like you said, we are stronger together.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Whilst I agree with some of what you're saying,

Mainly because everytime I had an issue, nobody helped me or even asked if I needed help, and I've started to hate most people because of their lack of a savior complex

I think you misunderstand what a savior complex tends to be.

A savior complex goes far beyond the virtue of empathy. A savior complex is what happens when someone helps others for reasons closer to making themselves feel better, as opposed to actual concern for the people they're helping. While the end result in the best case is the same (with a person who needs help getting it), because someone with a savior complex may not actually have the other person's best interests at heart it's very possible for them to do far more harm than good.

Savior complexes also tend to have people believe that they themselves can solve all the problems in the world. The second coming of Christ, if you will. It wears the skin of a positive personality trait, but can actually be far darker and more of a problem for both the person involved and all those they try to help. That's why people tend to shy away from someone exhibiting behavior related to a savior complex. Because people with savior complexes more often than not will make things worse due to their self-serving ulterior motives, which pull their focus away from the people they're trying to help and the issues they're trying to address.

Someone who refuses to help others would be described as selfish, not as someone lacking a savior complex. Similarly, I wouldn't view someone who well and truly has the best interests of others (Who would listen to what they're saying, follow up with research, and do their best to help and support) as someone with a savior complex. They're just a good person. And I wouldn't say we have a lack of those in the world; for every filmed atrocity of someone in serious danger that goes viral, there are dozens of other videos of people going out of their way to save trapped animals, diving to pull children out of the road, helping prevent the elderly when they're about to fall, etc.

[–]GarageCar 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Mhm, I must have confused savior complex with sympathy then? Thank you for letting me know! And of course there are people who assist others, it just has never been my experience which has led me to believe it is a rarity to find actual sympathetic people. Especially sympathetic towards gay people.

What I meant is we have a lack of people with sympathy that is not focused on just one particular group. For instance, someone is sympathetic towards elderly and black people, but then that's where the line cuts off. And this very same person goes around spreading the gender belief, and helping gay men and gay women lose their spaces more and more everyday ...

It's like most people's sympathy cuts off in a certain point, and they show none in other areas that really matter ...

I edited that comment above btw.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's very common for peoples prejudices to override empathy they have for their fellow men. Since ancient times people have demonstrated that empathy is most often selective. A prime example is that the GI Cult very clearly has no sympathy for homosexuals whatsoever, despite their entirely empty claims of "solidarity". Yet they will wax lyrical about how hard genderspecials have it and how much they empathize with their pain.

[–]zerosis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly, I think gay men need to be standing up more for lesbians. The TRA train hasn't bulldozed us nearly as hard as it has lesbians, from what I've seen.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You don’t have anything in common with every gay man? No gay male friends?

[–]just_lesbian_things[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only one in my social circle is a friend of an acquaintance. He's neck deep in TRA stuff, knows I am not, and probably does not have the highest opinion of me right now. The last time I saw him, he was crying about it. I haven't been to a lot of LGBT spaces because I never made it in on account of the T*RF thing.

Generally I steer clear of gay men spaces out of respect, and I don't meet any "in the wild".

[–]jjdub7TERF (Trans Exterminating Reactionary Fascist) 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, they don't dare bother coming after us, and most of us can hold our own. We need more gay men to take off the rose-and-aqua colored glasses and see what's being levied against lesbians and lesbianism and realize they're next.

[–]LeoneOkada 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Loot and sack Baden Baden and annex it to France, so it can renamed Badoit Badoit, hon hon hon!