LifestyleIs having racial preferences racist?

submitted by ukrdude10 from self.LGBDropTheT

I'm having a debate with other gay people about racial preferences, I think we have every right to exclude anybody we want from our dating pool. Of course I'm called a racist and exclusionary, as expected.

What's your opinion on this, is there anything wrong with stating things like "no twinks/asians/olds" etc. on your profile, or is that some form of discrimination?

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[–]szalinskikidproblematic androphile 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not easy to answer. We're all here partially because we're defending our right to have an "exclusive" dating pool. It's one of our key criticisms of TRA ideology. One might think that consequently, we should defend any form of discriminatory dating practice. I tend to agree with that. Consent is the most important aspect of our sexual self-determination. No form of pressure is "valid", not even morality/ethics.

However... homosexuality is our sexual orientation. Not liking a "race" (sexually), is not. It's a preference if anything. And I think it's different from superficial preferences like hair color, social status, weight etc., because we're talking about a concept rather than a simple visual trait. Not all asian people look/behave/are the same, nor do black people or white people. So how can one exclude them collectively, without seeing them through the (americanized) lense of "race", with stereotypes and biases in mind? I mean, preferring dark skin over white skin or vice versa is one thing to say, but it's different if you say you " prefer black people over white people". You know what I mean? How you say it and how you means it is important. And even if we should be absolutely free to pick and choose and not feel bad about it, it's not asked too much to be considerate. That's all.

A different question: Can your preference be racist and not wrong at the same time? Why one thing OR the other?

One thing is for sure though: trans exclusion and race based exclusion are not the same thing, even if TRAs try to paint it that way to make a moral argument.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I appreciate your answer, it's thoughtful and I think it's important to acknowledge that race is a made-up concept.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think having a racial preference is not inherently racist, but how you express or act on that preference certainly can be.

What's your opinion on this, is there anything wrong with stating things like "no twinks/asians/olds" etc. on your profile, or is that some form of discrimination?

It's certainly not a classy way to deal with having a preference for certain things, and is one of the aspects of using gay 'dating' apps that irritates me the most. Your profile is, ostensibly, a place where you tell me about yourself. What kind of interactions are you looking for? What are your hobbies? Paint me a little picture in words.

No fats, fems or asians. be at least 6'. be fit. face pic only. don't waste my time.

Profiles like that have told me nothing except you're a shallow dickhead. If someone messages you and they're too old / fat / black, reject them. We're all grownups here and those of us who don't look like a Greek statue have to get used to rejection pretty quickly when it comes to these apps.

Sorry, I think we're looking for different things.

Or

Sorry, I don't think we're a match.

Or any variation thereupon are perfectly acceptable ways to let people down nicely. You haven't ignored them completely (not always possible and I'm as guilty of that as the next man) and you haven't got personal about it.

[–]CuntWorshiperWomenholic full time | vagina fetishist part-time 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

One thing I won’t ever wrap my head around is why people would get mad at people for being a) Exclusionary b) Shallow/Superficial on dating apps. If we all decide to be honest for a second we all should agree that the concept of dating apps on itself is very much exclusionary and shallow.. come on, we’re literally talking about a service that provide us a menu of human beings of which we can pick and choose lovers based on physical appearance (let’s be honest again, no one choose personalities or deep personas on dating apps, we can’t get to know those things through a bio). While I agree that saying “no asian, no fat, no old” is asshole, no one need to say that, one could just not match with people they don’t want. I don’t get when people come with the “shallow” card.. like yeah is shallow, it’s a dating app what you expect?

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I suppose in my head I was thinking more along the lines of apps like Grindr or Scruff, where anyone can message you, regardless of what filters you have applied, rather than apps like Tinder where you can filter out things that you're less interested in.

You're right that it is a fundamentally pretty shallow method of interacting with other people, and there is something of the 'meat market' to the whole thing, but I get pretty salty when people don't have manners or basic respect for other people.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I heard gay dudes are particulary open about not liking blacks and asians. Everyone has the right to reject people for any reasons. It's not doubt that I prefer white women/latinos women, mediterraneans/latinos features. Most people prefer their own race. Although preferance doesn't mean not liking the alternative. It's different than having a dealbreaker. But even if you have a dealbreaker, you got the right to have it, as shallow as it sounds, just not being rude like "no black and asian" on your profile is not very nice. It's like women saying "swipe left if you're under 6ft", even though that's socially acceptable. Just avoid mentioning it and just match with your preferance.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is sort of hard to judge. Last time I saw actual data it's basically known that gay men as an entire unit have the most racially inclusive relationships but they get hammered for racism in dating more than other groups.

1 issue is perception vs reality being misaligned and then people refusing to look at facts over their perceptions.

The other is that gays men are just very blunt about sexual interests. So basically it seems like other groups might hide their racialized dating interests while being extremely exclusive, gays are more open but bluntly state what they want or don't want in a hookup.

Then you get people like "omg look he said the thing".

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had read a guardian article about it and comment on gaybros from gay dudes saying they were rejected a lot for being black. I don't think gay people are anywhere more race obsessed than heteros/homosexual women, they just more blunt. But a black person will be a minority in a minority. It's already difficult to find partner as a sexual minority, then you got another minority status which is a dealbreaker for certain, and it's even harder.

[–]markiemarcus 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"I heard gay dudes are particulary open about not liking blacks and asians."

This isn't my experience at all. To the contrary, actually.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nothing wrong with being exclusionary, because dating and sex are inherently discriminatory. And most people prefer their own race anyway. Obviously it’s not right to be nasty to someone or turn down a friendship with someone because of that person's race, but when it comes to relationships, it’s your body and your life. You can’t help who you fall in love with and who you don’t fall in love with.

If you’re going to rule out groups of people on your profile, do it in a way that’s polite. Although it would be a lot better if apps like Grindr or Tinder would let you filter out categories of people you don’t want. Of course, these apps will never do that. That would not be politically correct. And soulless corporations need their profits for their shareholders.

I think it would be a lot better if we would go back to meeting up at physical gay spaces, like gay bars or gay cafes. It’s easier to judge a person in person than online.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not inherently, but stating it on your profile is definitely crossing a line, since race can be a preferential thing as it's based on appearance and nothing more.

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've said it before, but I'll say it here: the discourse around gay men's sexual preferences over the past decade is why there are fewer gay men speaking up about the TRA nonsense. We've already had it beaten into us that it makes us immoral and shallow to not want to fuck certain other men. While a good portion of it has come from our own camp, other people (straight, bisexuals, lesbians) have felt the need to add their own 2 cents even if they engage in the same practices in their lives.

Frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with stating who you aren't into in a hook-up profile (like Grindr, Scruff, etc.). If you are a 20-something who is consistently getting messages from men old enough to be your father, stating that you are only looking for guys your age should be expected. If you are muscular and put a lot of work into your body, stating that you are only looking for other fit guys should be expected. I personally put down that you need to have all your teeth because some guys tried to hide the fact that they were missing a few and threw a tantrum when I called them out on it.

This is part of why I prefer Tinder- you can set your age parameters (even if Tinder tries to push through guys who are younger), your distance parameters, and curate a group of individuals that you have mutual interest in.

[–]SapphicFox 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm from what people would consider an 'ethnic minority' background and I honestly think that when it comes to dating/ sex you should be allowed to include/ exclude anyone based on anything if you truly believe in 'my body, my choice'. The only thing others should ever be concerened about it that both parties are of consenting age and, most importantly, that there is consent involved from both sides.

Not wanting to be sexually engaged in a certain race or culture doesnt automatically mean that you find people of that race/culture inferior or bad as human beings, it just means they may have traits that don't do it for you on sexual/romantic level.

Also its important to remember that a relationship can be a large chunk of your life and why engage in one if youre just not attracted to the other person for whatever reason and you're just doing it due to being shamed into it? You'd just be wasting both your times.

[–]markiemarcus 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hypothetically, if I saw somebody with no "insert race here" in their profile, I wouldn't date them. I also think it's a mistake on your part and that you're potentially missing out. There are features on people in general that I don't like and I think we're all perfectly entitled to those, but I've also encountered enough people (purely socially, not intimately; I travel a lot) to know that "insert race here" "tends to have X/Y features" is too broad to be useful or fair.

So while we're all perfectly entitled to preferences based on physical attributes (I'm really not into twinks), you're ruling out people of your sexuality whose physical attributes you haven't actually seen, based on "tends to have". It doesn't make any sense to me. You're perfectly entitled to do that and while it isn't necessarily racist (though it can be), it absolutely is a personality trait that I don't like.

I would also echo the other comments; trans exclusion and race exclusion are not even remotely comparable. As a descriptor it comes with physical realities that hold true 100% of the time and that's not even getting into the emotional/romantic side.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

No. People get so bent out of shape about racial preferences because we live in a racist society, but preferring the features and/or skin color of certain races over others at its most basic level is no different than height, weight, lifestyle, and hair color preferences. It's not racist to me if someone says 'I think black people are ugly' and I'm black. I think men with beards are ugly. I think overweight men are ugly. But no one calls me a bigot for saying that, and they shouldn't. They might call me shallow or an asshole but I've never been accused of committing a hate crime due to my aversion to facial hair and dad bods. No one should be called a racist for racial dating preferences either. The problem is race is such a touchy subject people get so triggered when someone expresses a racial bias. A racial dating preference CAN be racist, but it isn't at it's core. To be clear:

A: 'I think black people are subhuman, that my race is better, and that's why I don't date them' - racist

B: 'African features are unattractive to me because I think black people are subhuman' - racist (and where a lot of people get confused)

C: 'I think black people are ugly because African features are unattractive to me' - not racist (and what many don't consider an option. This is how most non-racist people who have this specific preference think)

People say C but it gets interpreted as A and/or B.

[–]SailorMoon2020 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

C: 'I think black people are ugly because African features are unattractive to me' - not racist (and what many don't consider an option. This is how most non-racist people who have this specific preference think)

This is racist because it's implying all Africans have the same features. This is incorrect. Africa, known as the birth place of humans, has the most diverse genetic make up on this planet.

Scientist have found features from various different tribes that contribute to the theory of evolution as well the theory of migration. Some African tribes have what is known as European features, others as Asian features, etc.

Another reason this comment is just as racist because it implies any person mixed with black will have "African features". Again, we're not all a monolith and again, due to being mixed our genes are even more diverse. Because black people especially in North and South America are mixed with so many groups, there is no black person who is third our fourth generation that has "African features".

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Maybe I should've specified 'features people typically associate with Africans' like dark skin, wide noses, thick lips, etc. I'm well aware black people are not a monolith and that we don't all look the same. I'm well aware some have European features and can even pass as other races. But you're splitting hairs right now. When someone hears the term 'black people' in a colloquial sense most aren't thinking about the vast genetic diversity in Africa and South America. I'm talking about casual conversation where the mental image the term 'black people' invokes is one of dark skin, coily hair, etc. My point still stands. If someone is not attracted to that mental image, that does not make them racist by default. They must hold other prejudices about black people beyond not being attracted to us in order for them to be racist.

It's much easier to say 'I don't find black people attractive' when you know there is a general set of features black people have in common that you aren't attracted to rather than list them all just to avoid looking racist. People are lazy, and most of the time it's really not that deep. I'd much rather say 'I don't date people with kids' because that's easier than listing all possible caveats in which I might date someone with offspring.

[–]SailorMoon2020 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

features people typically associate with Africans' like dark skin, wide noses, thick lips, etc

I mean you're not wrong.

[–]Athelhilda2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

By "tribes with European features" are you referring to North Africans? If my memory is correct, they're more closely related to people from the Middle East, particularly from the Levant.

[–]SailorMoon2020 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Africa became before the middle east. But it all depends on if you believe in the theory of evolution, some people don't. Nonetheless, if you'd like to know more I'd suggest reading these specific topics.

Theory of Evolution, Homo Sapiens

Out of Africa Theory

African Genetic Diversity-Mordern Human Origins

Dawinism Selection and Genetic Variation of Africa

African Variations of mtDNA and the Y Chromosome

And more.

[–]JulienMayfair 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We all know that racial preferences exist broadly in dating. In fact, gay people are statistically more likely to be in interracial relationships than heterosexuals.

But you don't have to be a dick about it. Some things are best not brought up as topics for debate because they're only going to be inflammatory and piss everyone off. I wish both sides would tone it down on this issue. We need less identitarian drama, not more.

There is wisdom in picking your battles wisely.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just throwing in on the culture point that seems to be falling by the wayside in this thread;

If you'd want to avoid being involved in peoples/families of a certain culture because it holds values you don't agree with, that's also a good reason to turn down dating opportunities.

I wouldn't, for example, date a man who is devout in his following of Islam. (Yes, somehow it happens and Islamic faith is reconciled with being homosexual. Somehow.) I don't agree with its views on homosexuality or women, and I also wouldn't want to have to deal with that guys family. Culture is important to people, and if you're just tolerating parts of someone's culture there's inevitably going to be friction between you when your most intimate and vulnerable moments are shared. People are well within their right to not want to deal with that. Many people also want to become involved with those who have similar cultural experiences and want to form a more familiar family unit with mutual expectations, and I'd consider that a reasonable perspective.

As far as broadcasting it on your profile is concerned, I'd say its a simple matter of when in Rome. You wouldn't say "no fems/olds/blacks" to someone if they struck up a conversation with you in the real world, but dating apps are trashy so the interactions are often trashy.

I would think that if you're not interested in someone, or don't find particular racial features attractive, you're doing both parties a favor by making that clear in the first place. Letting people know that you're not interested in a romantic relationship isn't an attack unless you do it by attacking them. It's not exactly like you have to spit on them and tell them to die in a hole - you can still be friends, you just don't want to bump uglies.

I think the fact that this argument exists at all is a result of our pornsick culture. Watch someone fuck the pizza delivery guy enough times and you start to think that's a regular, polite and courteous baseline interaction that people have all the time.

Just to make it clear however, no matter how roughly someone's let down, if they start pulling the race card on people for not wanting to fuck them they've got serious social issues. Just like everyone else trying to police consent.

[–]theytookourjerbsXX only. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now I wouldn't prefer a whole "race", but I like people from Asia. So any white Asian like a Georgian, any black Asian like a South Indian, any yellow Asian like a Korean, etc. You get it. I personally find a person from the continent of Asia attractive.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it’s weird to blanket reject a whole race, but that’s just me. I have no problem with people who have that preference. It’s creepy to dictate to others who they are and aren’t allowed to say no to

[–]DestructionI ❤️ adult human females 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

No, it isn't. Please, let's not equate attraction to a moral standpoint. The TRAs already did that and that's why they'll call you a bigot for not fucking trans. Attraction is inherently exclusionary and largely out of your control. You can still respect and love people without wanting to fuck them.

Your genitals are not Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse where everybody is welcome.

[–]our_team_is_winning 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's the style of saying "No this or that" that's rude. Instead just state what you're looking for. Instead of "No over 30, no short men," just put "under 30, over 6' " or whatever you're looking for. Put your wish list, not your dealbreaker list.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_1456613

Here's an article from 2012. Unfortunately the source link is now broken. This is just to point to for the numerous conversations in this thread.

I clearly remember people already attacking gays back then over this when this article came out. I remember people being mad about the data when it came out because it refuted their narrative and I was so confused.

[–]QueenBread 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wait, twinks and old people are nothing like people of a different race. I understand the logic between not wanting to date someone with too much of a age difference. But there's no logic in not wanting to date someone of a specific race...... besides racism.