RantB in LG spaces dilemma

submitted by lazy-summer-godSuper Gay from self.LGBDropTheT

Don't mean to start an internal war, but there's just a constant problem with bisexual people invading G spaces. I don't know if that's an issue also for lesbians, but it's becoming a real deal for gay men.

I see it on r/askgaybros all the time. There is just so many of bisexuals... like, what are they even doing there? This is a clear space for gay men and yet half of the users are bisexual. They justify it by claiming that this subreddit is for "everyone who is not straight". No, it's not. It's ask GAY bros.

The problem is that their takes are so bad... Trans post shows up, asking if we would "date a trans man?" Guess what, gay men respond "no, never" but bisexuals respond "yeah, sure" without specifying that they're bi. It makes these trans men spread misinformation that it's possible for gay men to like biological females and creates a natural hierarchy in which there are "good gays" (bisexuals) who are attracted to trans men and "bad gays" (actual gays) who aren't attracted to trans men because of their transphobia.

Same shit happens with "sexuality is fluid for everyone" argument. No, it's not. It's fluid for bisexuals. Yet they come into my gay space and inform me that I need to educate myself, just because their perspective is tainted and they can't imagine how it is to have no attraction for the other sex.

I believe this is a huge problem in the slowly forming LGB community. I don't say we should "Drop the B", but maybe it's time to say "stop" to bisexuals, so they create their own spaces, which are currently underdeveloped, because they needlessly latch onto other letters.

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[–]NutterButterFlutterStill waving into the void[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (12 children)

Whoever reported this ... OP, your thread is fine. Just because we're all here on LGBDTT doesn't mean there isn't some dirt in our own houses to clean up.

I will remind everyone though, this isn't your invitation to summarily lump ALL BISEXUALS TOGETHER under one big umbrella just because of the TQ+ craziness infecting our communities. Remember that there are plenty of bisexuals here who AREN'T doing that, and who are just as frustrated by the misrepresentation and homophobia.

[–][deleted] 41 insightful - 1 fun41 insightful - 0 fun42 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Happens all the time in lesbian spaces too. Bisexual women are the ones cheerleading the girldick invasion.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This this this

[–]our_team_is_winning 33 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 0 fun34 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

In defense of actual bisexuals here:

I for one do NOT have any interest in fake men or women. A man pretending to be a woman (and always failing miserably) is some mentally ill narcissist with a sick fetish who actually hates women. He's not a desirable man. He's sure as hell not a woman. I don't see where he is of romantic interest to anyone.

Any self-described bisexual who is open to "trans" is a Gender Extremist "queer" troublemaker. This is why we needed that "super" prefix I guess.

A person has mental issues if they call a man "she" or a woman "he." Instead of bisexual, they're "freaksexual."

If bisexual men want to talk about their relationships and interests in men, or have questions about male with male sexual relationships, I don't think they should be chased out because they also sleep with women, but if they're there to talk about "transmen" and their "front hole" shit -- these are just mentally ill people with no respect for either men or women. They're "genderqueer" bullies.

Bisexual doesn't mean "trans" acceptance. Any trans demands handmaiden (what's the bro version? Wokebro?) pushing for mentally ill narcissists who think they can change their sex in gay, lesbian, or hell ANY forum, need to back off.

[–]usehername 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

In defense of actual bisexuals

I take issue with the fact that every time the problems OP is describing are brought up, someone has to jump in and claim these people are somehow not "actual bisexuals". If they're genuinely attracted to both males and females, they are actually bisexual.

Any self-described bisexual who is open to "trans" is a Gender Extremist "queer" troublemaker. This is why we needed that "super" prefix I guess.

That's really not the origin of the "super" thing. It was a het guy describing the fact that attraction to males is a physical impossibility due to his immutable orientation. I understand that for many bis, being attracted to trans people is also a "physical impossibility" because they are simply not attracted, but the fact remains that "bi except trans" is not an orientation, but a preference, which should also be respected. Bisexuals have a very different orientation from hetero and homosexuals, so stuff like "super" just doesn't work for us.

Any trans demands handmaiden (what's the bro version? Wokebro?) pushing for mentally ill narcissists who think they can change their sex in gay, lesbian, or hell ANY forum, need to back off.

Now that, we can agree on.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I understand that for many bis, being attracted to trans people is also a "physical impossibility" because they are simply not attracted, but the fact remains that "bi except trans" is not an orientation, but a preference, which should also be respected. Bisexuals have a very different orientation from hetero and homosexuals, so stuff like "super" just doesn't work for us.

While I certainly agree that bisexuality is, in some respects, fundamentally different than either of the monosexual orientations (and that this needs to be generally understood and accepted), we part ways when it comes to "bi people can't be Supers". Because we absolutely can. And, indeed, are (whether we use the actual term for ourselves or not).

See, I don't think that what the "SuperSexuality" concept really means is "not attracted to trans people". Yeah, that's how it's often interpreted, but I view it a little differently: as "attracted exclusively to biological sex".

If you use THAT definition, while bisexuals CAN (at least in theory) be attracted to trans people-- to transwomen as men, and transmen as women-- we can't do it on the only basis which trans-ideologues will accept: that of gender. And this puts us in exactly the same boat as lesbians and straight men who can be attracted to transmen (as women), and gay men and straight women who can be attracted to transwomen (as men). We're ALL capable of being attracted to trans people... but not AS trans people. Only as their biological sex. Which they reject as transphobia, in effect cancelling it out.

Which makes SuperBi as much a thing as all the other SuperSexualities.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No disrespect, Pansy, but that just seems convoluted to me. I've heard other bis describe it that way, and it just sounds like we're trying to stretch the actual meaning to fit us. As a bisexual, I'm not "attracted exclusively to biological sex". I'd describe it more as being attracted regardless of sex, though some of us have different criteria for what makes a man and a woman attractive. It's monosexuals who are attracted to people on the basis of sex (with preferences as well), which is why "super" was created by a het. It's just describing monosexual orientation, the physical reality of never being able to feel attraction to one of the sexes, regardless of "gender identity" which is just a footnote.

I also wouldn't really call SuperBi or any other SuperSexualities (I'm not being consistent capitalizing, but I'm tired) "a thing". People who call themselves "SuperBi" do exist, but it's generally defined as liking "cis" people only, because like I said, it was just a description of his monosexual orientation, which triggers TRAs just by existing, as opposed to an intentional resistance against their ideology, because "SuperBi" is generally defined as "cis" men and women only, not men and women but if you ID as trans I refuse to play along. The reason I wouldn't say it's "a thing" is because a SuperLesbian is just a lesbian, same for gays and straights and bis. The basis of it sort of concedes the terms without the prefix to the TRAs. If SuperGays only like males, then do gays like males and females? It also concedes the word "gender" to them, and allows them to call men and women "genders" which is inaccurate and used for intentional deception, despite the fact that gender is used as a synonym for sex now frequently ever since "sex" became slang for copulate. That's why I don't really support it, but it was an overall positive movement and I appreciate the pushback against the TRAs and their rape rhetoric.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

attracted regardless of sex

I could make a two-type typology of bisexuality. One type experiences attraction on the basis of sex. For the other type, sex isn't an organizing force in their sexuality. If sex is equal, then sex isn't part of the equation anymore, and attraction is more salient on other dimensions. Now we're in TRA rhetoric territory.

That's a nuanced take and the differences could be hard to elucidate. Point being, are all bisexuals really the same thing? Because this bit of the thread assumes that's the case.

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I could make a two-type typology of bisexuality. One type experiences attraction on the basis of sex. For the other type, sex isn't an organizing force in their sexuality.

How could one determine which they are? It all seems very nebulous. A monosexual is clearly attracted on the basis of sex, because they like one sex and not another. If a person is attracted to both sexes, then how can you say that sex plays a role? On what basis?

are all bisexuals really the same thing?

Bisexual people all have the same orientation, but do have different preferences.

If sex is equal, then sex isn't part of the equation anymore, and attraction is more salient on other dimensions. Now we're in TRA rhetoric territory.

Almost as if they borrowed that rhetoric from some group of people.

This was interesting, so I made a little survey on our sub if you're interested. I really want to hear your answer to the question I bolded because I just do not get it. Feel free to answer here, on the sub, both, or neither lol.

https://saidit.net/s/Bisexuals/comments/84e4/is_sex_a_factor_in_your_attraction_in_what_way/

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How could one determine which they are? It all seems very nebulous.

I agree! How one could even go about determining if this hypothetical two-type typology has any basis or even is meaningful, I have no good ideas. What I do know is that I've heard lots of bisexual people place themselves into either of the two types. The I'm-bisexual-because-I-like-vulvas-and-penises, or the I'm-bisexual-because-I-care-not. So, I've collected the anecdotes and there's my hypothesis.

Per your bolded question:

That's my question. Is this purely conceptual, or is it a meaningful difference such that there are indeed different sorts of bisexual people. Which, if true, could mean that bisexuality, or plurisexuality (the technical term for the opposite of monosexuality) is fundamentally different. Where bisexuality isn't a continuum from heterosexual to homosexual but could, in some cases, better be understood as its own stand-alone thing, even though you could quantify it.

To rope it into the larger topic, so it's not just me being overly academic, this could explain different bisexual attitudes towards trans people.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I take issue with the fact that every time the problems OP is describing are brought up, someone has to jump in and claim these people are somehow not "actual bisexuals".

But some of them aren't. The identity tourism that has led to a massive spike in transgender identification has likely affect LGB self-identification as well. When bisexuality is commonly defined on social media as "anything EXCEPT attraction to both men and women," and a bunch of self-described bisexuals say they're "bisexual" because they have "attraction to more than one gender," they're not even talking about the same thing as people who define bisexuality as attraction to both sexes.

but the fact remains that "bi except trans" is not an orientation, but a preference, which should also be respected. Bisexuals have a very different orientation from hetero and homosexuals, so stuff like "super" just doesn't work for us.

That's a great point.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But some of them aren't.

It's definitely true that at least some of them aren't, but the vast majority of the people OP is talking about really are. A man who likes men and "trans men"? Bi. A lot of the bi people OP is talking about don't even identify as bi, so "bi" fakers are irrelevant in this discussion.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Perhaps the people in AGB who identify as bisexual actually are people who are attracted to both sexes; I'm not as familiar with AGB. I just know that in r/actuallesbians, and almost all of the other "lesbian" online communities I've seen, a ton of them are not; they tend to be AGP transwomen, or sometimes very young teenage girls who believe in the r/lgballt definition of bisexuality that I described (and who are exposed to the dick pics and grooming behaviors in r/actuallesbians).

[–]usehername 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm saying that a lot of them don't identify as bi, and in the case of AGB, are appropriating the "gay" label, but there are also a lot of bis who do id as bi doing this.

I just know that in r/actuallesbians, and almost all of the other "lesbian" online communities I've seen, a ton of them are not

Ok but just to be clear here, are we talking about people who id as bi or don't? And are actually bi or not? The posts on r/actuallesbians are mostly from transbians and a few bi women, while r/AGB actually has a lot of legitimate gay men and a decent portion of bi men who participate. r/actuallesbians posters preaching about girldick are probably mostly transbians themselves, with a few bi women. That sub is already taken over. However, r/AGB seems to be in the midst of a targeted attack by r/AHS, where most of the boypussy posts aren't from legit transgays, and the problem is bi guys (who may or may not LARP as gay) saying they would love some boypussy, making gays look bad.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok but just to be clear here, are we talking about people who id as bi or don't?

I am talking about people who ID as bisexual. I agree that the distinctions between people who ID as bi on AGB vs AL are important. But I'm still skeptical as to whether many of the ones who ID as bisexual on AGB are actually bisexual men and not bisexual-ID'ing AAP women (transmen).

That said-- the issue of bisexual men who do not mention that they're bisexual, as OP described, still stands. I am inclined to assume that most of them don't realize the harm they may be doing by NOT specifying, "By the way, I like p*ssy because I'm bisexual, not gay," and that it might be fruitful to open a conversation with them. Perhaps that assumption's mistaken, but I'd be curious to hear why, if so.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

"bi except trans" is not an orientation, but a preference,

It's an orientation. It's the meaning of "bisexual." Attraction to trans people is something non-bisexual people tack on after the fact under the wrong label; they should be using something else, like "pansexual," to mean that.

Please do not call an orientation that has been recognized for many decades suddenly a preference. It isn't. And "SuperBi" works perfectly fine to reinforce the point of what "bisexual" has always meant.

[–]usehername 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Uh no. Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes: male and female, men and women. Trans people are still either men or women, so bisexual people are can theoretically be attracted to them. Obviously, bisexuals aren't going to be attracted to every single man or woman, so individual bis may not be attracted to trans people, but bi people who are attracted to trans people are bi, as long as they are attracted to both men and women. "Pansexuality" isn't a real orientation, because orientations are sex-based (same, opposite, or both), not "gender" based.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you are not hearing yourself. Let's unpack this: "Trans people are still either men or women, so bisexual people are can theoretically be attracted to them." As their unwanted biological sex, not the one they claim to be but aren't, perhaps, but that is not a blanket statement applicable to all bisexuals by any remote stretch of the imagination and needs to not be promoted as such, which is what you are doing here by claiming that +trans is an orientation, but -trans is a preference.

Being trans is another thing entirely not related to orientation. Understanding and acknowledging the sex one is is sort of baseline requirement for being a candidate for dating. So a trans person, no matter how much I like them otherwise, is automatically not in my dating pool. And nothing whatsoever needed to be modified about the definition of "bisexual" for this to be true, either. The modification is coming from people tacking "trans" on to what is included in the term.

And this is why we deal with trans people trying to bully us by definition. Rewriting the meaning of words doesn't grant the fake new meanings primacy, it just makes people who want power and control look desperate.

Find another term for this. Bisexual is taken. Not sure why you are so desperate to force attraction to trans people to be part of bisexuality in the first place. As we have discussed here many times, "man" and "woman" have clear, understandable meanings related to biology and body parts. If someone wants to play mix'n'match in their heads and then get surgery to feel like they really are that sex now, they are doing something else (and also taking away a key factor that would make them attractive as their biological sex, if being unable to accept that detail about themselves didn't already disqualify them). More power to them, but leave bisexuality out of it. This is as unwelcome and unnecessary (find a more precise term that isn't already taken) of an argument as it would be to say that lesbians should like "girldick." I like my men knowing they are men, and my women knowing they are women. Period.

ETA: Just so it's really super clear, a trans person, even if possessed of an identifiable biological sex and intact body parts, isn't part of the definition of people I'd want to sleep with and partner. So they are not part of the definition of bisexual, or a demographic that would be discussed in a dating context (which is the whole point of a term like "bisexual"), any more than trying to include doorknobs would be relevant—it's not a relevant category of entity. Just like men who insist they are women are not a relevant dating category for lesbians.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 32 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 0 fun33 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have nothing against bisexuals. If I had a boyfriend and he was bisexual, it wouldn’t bother me at all. And gay people who hate bisexuals are assholes. However, homosexuals and bisexuals are distinct groups of people. And what you are illustrating in your post is evident that there needs to be spaces meant exclusively for homosexuals and spaces meant exclusively for bisexuals, in addition to same sex attracted spaces for all LGB people. Homosexual spaces should have the right to exclude bisexuals or expect bisexuals to behave themselves while in their spaces. Bisexual spaces should have the right to exclude homosexuals or expect homosexuals to behave themselves while in their spaces. And LGB spaces should treat homosexuals and bisexuals equally, and not allow one group to dominate the other.

I’m sure that a lot of bisexuals are switched on to how bad the T is for same sex attracted people, especially for homosexuals. But a lot of bisexuals are clueless to how damaging it is, and they don’t seem to understand that being gay is not the same as being bi. That’s why I promote segregated spaces and inclusive spaces.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This has been quite a problem in the lesbian community as well got quite a long time. What happened is that lesbians were banned and been told were the "wrong ones" while the bi women claiming to be lesbians or "so gay" are the one "representing us".

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's fluid for bisexuals.

Sexuality is not fluid for bisexuals either.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you experience the "bi-cycle"? I've had bi friends who after breaking up with a partner of one sex, they find their more attracted to men or women when they start dating again or shift between preferring one sex and having no preference. For my bi friends, that has shown up as dating the opposite sex after ending a same-sex relationship or dating the same-sex after ending a het relationship.

I agree sexuality isn't fluid, regardless of preference for men or women, bisexuals still experience attraction to both sexes and that doesn't change, they don't become attracted to only one sex.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You may find this interesting: https://saidit.net/s/Bisexuals/comments/7dzg/bicyclingfluctuating/

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you experience the "bi-cycle"?

Yeah, I do. And I guess I've been noticing it more recently than anything. But I'm usually stable in the middle of Kinsey at 3, and I haven't really noticed the "bi-cycle" for most of my life. Which, based on my past year, makes me think that at it's core the cycle is at least partly psychological as much as as it's a physiological response. So one's life experiences(with males or females like you have described) can have an effect on it. It's... libido, I think; Which fluctuates separately for each sex, because neither sex can entirely substitute for the other, at least in my case.

Also, I think bi's tend to notice the fluctuations more because of the juxtaposition of the 2 libidos(to men and women). When one increases/decreases relative to the other we may just notice that change, and perhaps even chalk it up to having a "fluid" sexual orientation. But yeah, I also don't think it's anything remotely that dramatic or fundamental. No bi alive is suddenly going to be morphing to another sexuality anytime soon.

[–]Rag3 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nope. But I’ve heard younger bisexuals saying this…

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What do you mean? I've had bi men on AGB insisting that not only their sexuality is fluid, but mine, too, lol.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've had that happen to me multiple times in REAL LIFE. And thanks to this TQ+ ideology this idea is spreading. It's so infuriating I swear.

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

???

I mean sexuality is not fluid for anyone.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, tautology is not the best way of explaining things, champ. By all means, remain passive-aggressive about it; your community's image can't really get worse than what it already is.

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You said sexuality is only fluid for Bisexuals. I'm saying it's not.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For whom is it fluid, too, then?

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not fluid for anyone.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Totally legit, bisexuals who don't respect LG spaces are assholes. The ones who encourage the trans woke homophobia are even worse. Bisexuals need to understand that they are not gay or lesbian and should not speak for those groups. They are bisexual which is it's own thing.

[–]ThrowMeAway2879 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't mind bi guys on r/askgaybros - if they state that fact when they answer sexuality related question (for the reasons you outlined above).

[–]Daddiescummies 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's askGAYbros, not askBiBros. Create your own space, bisexuals are not gay.

[–]usehername 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There already is an r/AskBiBros tho

[–]RaspberryTea 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

I wonder how many of these "bi" people are basically just straight, but desperate to be part of the +~QUEER~+ club. I'll bet it's rather common these days, given there's now clout to be gained if you're desperate enough and/or have enough cluster B traits going on.

As for the rest, it seems logical to me that bisexual people with significant, serious same-sex attraction would want to be around gays/lesbians to talk about those experiences and feelings. It's the common ground we share. And there really isn't a viable bisexual community, probably because we're so varied. You've got men, you've got women, you've got those who are mostly same-sex attracted, those who are mostly hetero, the ones who fall right in the middle, the ones who vary with the wind.... It's kind of hard to organize that and on top of this, the newly out ones assume they'll be welcome in the the LGB community. Which, again, seems logical, but it doesn't always work out that way--as the OP here demonstrates. This can lead to some weird effects, such as the significantly same-sex attracted ones calling themselves gay or lesbian so they'll have a place to call home. Hell, when I first came out, I definitely felt pressured to call myself a lesbian and even did for a while because of all the talk about how horrible bi women are.

Unfortunately, the loudest ones also tend to be the straightest. Like the women who are married to men and can't STFU about how ~KWEER~ their marriage is and how they're SO GAY. It's obnoxious and fucks things up for everyone IMO.

EDIT: In case anyone assumes I'm blaming this entire mess on "fake bisexuals", that's not the case. I do think some of it comes from there, but not all of it. Some of it (as I alluded to) probably is coming from bi people who identify as gay for whatever reason, and (since the OP was specifically about the gay male side of things) I'd bet my mother's life at least some of it is coming from FTMs calling themselves gay men.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wonder how many of these "bi" people are basically just straight, but desperate to be part of the +~QUEER~+ club. I'll bet it's rather common these days, given there's now clout to be gained if you're desperate enough and/or have enough cluster B traits going on.

Completely agree. I posted about this a while back, but the definitions of "bisexual" found on social media (and pushed by LGBTQ+ organizations) are often completely unrelated to sexual attraction.

As for the rest, it seems logical to me that bisexual people with significant, serious same-sex attraction would want to be around gays/lesbians to talk about those experiences and feelings. It's the common ground we share. And there really isn't a viable bisexual community, probably because we're so varied. You've got men, you've got women, you've got those who are mostly same-sex attracted, those who are mostly hetero, the ones who fall right in the middle, the ones who vary with the wind.... It's kind of hard to organize that and on top of this, the newly out ones assume they'll be welcome in the the LGB community. Which, again, seems logical, but it doesn't always work out that way--as the OP here demonstrates. This can lead to some weird effects, such as the significantly same-sex attracted ones calling themselves gay or lesbian so they'll have a place to call home. Hell, when I first came out, I definitely felt pressured to call myself a lesbian and even did for a while because of all the talk about how horrible bi women are.

That totally makes sense, and I'm sorry you felt that pressure. A couple other people have mentioned it already but it kind of sounds like a good in-between ground would be to have a) a group each for gay men and lesbians, b) bisexual groups, AND c) gay/bisexual men's group and gay/bisexual women's group.

Unfortunately, the loudest ones also tend to be the straightest. Like the women who are married to men and can't STFU about how ~KWEER~ their marriage is and how they're SO GAY. It's obnoxious and fucks things up for everyone IMO.

Yup. For lesbians it's "political lesbian" radical feminists... ugh.

[–]RaspberryTea 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Completely agree. I posted about this a while back, but the definitions of "bisexual" found on social media (and pushed by LGBTQ+ organizations) are often completely unrelated to sexual attraction.

I got a headache just reading that. I'm also not surprised it's where things are going: a fun new way for straight people to claim a real and authentic ~QUEER~ label instead of demisexual or whatever.

That totally makes sense, and I'm sorry you felt that pressure. A couple other people have mentioned it already but it kind of sounds like a good in-between ground would be to have a) a group each for gay men and lesbians, b) bisexual groups, AND c) gay/bisexual men's group and gay/bisexual women's group.

Thanks for your empathy. I could and probably should make an entire post on this topic since it gets on my mind now and then. For starters, I think the reason some bisexual people sign on with the TQ+ is because they don't feel welcome in the rest of the community. Others "go stealth" as L or G since they're mostly same-sex attracted and want to be taken seriously/have a place to fit in, but don't feel like they would be if they identified as bi. Which, yes, can create its own problems. To an extent, it can't be helped, but I have to wonder if it needs to be THAT bad.

Yup. For lesbians it's "political lesbian" radical feminists... ugh.

LOL. To me, dating women for reasons besides being attracted to them seems like too much work.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for your empathy. I could and probably should make an entire post on this topic since it gets on my mind now and then. For starters, I think the reason some bisexual people sign on with the TQ+ is because they don't feel welcome in the rest of the community. Others "go stealth" as L or G since they're mostly same-sex attracted and want to be taken seriously/have a place to fit in, but don't feel like they would be if they identified as bi. Which, yes, can create its own problems. To an extent, it can't be helped, but I have to wonder if it needs to be THAT bad.

That makes a lot of sense... I can definitely see how the TQ+ (mistaken) message that "everyone is bisexual!" would be something that some bisexuals at least would find very normalizing and supportive. And yeah, of course, no problem! I find it really interesting to hear other LGB people's perspectives, especially GB since I don't have that perspective myself.

LOL. To me, dating women for reasons besides being attracted to them seems like too much work.

Right?!

[–]schomee 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

That phenomenon is only true for women. No straight man would ever identify as bi. This whole "appropriating lesbianism" thing is exclusive to bisexual women since lesbians barely experience actual, real homophobia and their sexuality is a fun fetish and costume to put on.

It absolutely is not a fun fetish to put on for straight men. The barrier for bisexual men is so high that anyone who says it is absolutely bi, 100%. It's just that they want their "straight side represented" and end up wanting to push their "straight side" in gay spaces, which leads to problems since gay spaces are very small and bisexuals have the rest of earth for their "straight side". Most of their persecution complex is wanting to go into non homophobic spaces but bring their heterosexuality with them and that usually involves some homophobic spouse or stranger or "friend" where gays just want to be free to be comfortable not being around heterosexuals. It's similar to an all woman space but women constantly bringing men in there.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Lesbians barely experience actual, real homophobia

Gee, if I didn't know you better, I'd say you have a hatred of lack of understanding of bisexuals and lesbians

[–]schomee 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Gee, almost like your narcissism completely ruins the gay and lesbian community when you try to put yourself front and center and whine that you're the biggest victim of a certain problem..and that systemically spreads out. hmmmm.

All true patriarchies murder what they consider its traitors. In iran, gays are executed. Lesbians are not. Theyre just considered a theory for amusement. Do you want to put yourself front and center there?

In saudi arabia, gays are executed. Lesbians are not. Do you want to make it all about yourself there?

In all african countries, gays are executed, or tortured and imprisoned. Lesbians are just considered a funny theory or a sex fetish. Do you want to put yourself front and center there as well? It's almost like most of these homosexual disasters when it comes to creating a solution are highly corrupted, ineffective and useless since theyre secretly meant to advance your interests over actual homophobic issues.

You come last. Because you matter less when it comes to homophobia. Thanks for contributing to the gay civil rights movement by the...oh thats right. You didnt lol.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If lesbians seem less targeted, it's because their oppression as WOMEN is so complete already. Is she being treated as disposable-- beaten, raped, murdered-- because she's a lesbian... or just because she's a woman? Often, it's hard to tell.

That really doesn't sound like a very enviable position.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Don't waste your time with him. He's a troll and keeps making alts.

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Is this the same guy who keeps getting banned that basically hates everyone except white gay men?

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep

[–]schomee 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

She's privileged as a woman to exist in a patriarchy compared to gay men. Let's not pretend this forum isn't infested with "radical feminists", who have a joke for a political ideology that has the privilege of coming up with highly distorted and false views of the world because they can afford to be wrong and ridiculous since they dont need an accurate view of the world. There could be an asteroid heading towards earth right now to annihilate all life and a radical feminist would claim "the asteroid is sexist because it's going to kill all women".

And no, lesbians are not more oppressed because theyre women. But there you go again, trying to put yourself front and center since your only connection to the homosexual community is elbowing your way in between gays and lesbians with "radical feminism". Plenty of women are highly privileged in the patriarchy. Most of them are compared to gay men. Just because gay men do better than you, INSPITE of their more extreme conditions, doesnt mean the system doesnt benefit you more. Pretty sure a flat out genocide against gays is a tad bit worse than mere fetishization or amusement.

If you want to play "who's more oppressed", heterosexual and bisexual women oppress homosexuals..both male and female. We built a community that allows us to excel passed you most of the time and that makes you seethe because you assumed your heterosexual privilege would help you with that.

So tell me about the oppression of women in iran and how it compares to gay people...in iran. It's like comparing a mosquito bite to having a missile shot at you.

What youre attempting to do here is no less embarrassing than when feminists tried invading the holocaust center academically to claim that jewish women had it worse because they got raped, which is false since the jewish men couldn't be used for sex so they just shot them.

So your point makes absolutely no sense because it's desperately trying to imply that gay males somehow benefit from the patriarchy, which makes it it's mission to commit genocide against them. You're more privileged as a woman in a patriarchy and this clearly shows. But go ahead and center yourself and show us all how useless your ideology is. It's done a super great and convincing job explaining "transbians", correct? The heterosexual men in wigs are pure evil rapists/incels who do this because theyre sick, BUT the rapists/homophobic straight/bi women are completely innocent and brainwashed and that's why they all identify as gay men and demand to rape confused teenage boys.

I have an ovarit account and have read almost every single post and comment. Your narcissism constantly gets in the way of properly diagnosing things because you demand to center yourself in everything.

[–]usehername 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In iran, gays are executed. Lesbians are not.

Untrue: https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ad8bc.html

In saudi arabia, gays are executed. Lesbians are not.

Also untrue: https://lifeinsaudiarabia.net/punishment-of-adultery-zina-and/

The only exception is pregnant women and women with children under two years old. Once the child is two, the woman will be executed.

You come last. Because you matter less when it comes to homophobia.

Source?

Thanks for contributing to the gay civil rights movement by the...oh thats right. You didnt lol.

Women did not have full rights at that time and still don't (though not to as great of an extent), but they did contribute.

[–]RaspberryTea 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

No straight man would ever identify as bi.

Just because a thing is rare doesn't mean it never happens. I've had a couple of definitely-straight guys tell me they were bisexual basically because they found anime boys attractive. Sure, they might have said it to impress(?) me in particular, but it's proof that it CAN happen. And considering how everyone wants in the club these days....

But I agree it probably isn't the current route of choice since Trans grabs more attention. And depending on how you go about it, it doesn't even take any effort. From what I've seen, straight guys who really want to be ~QUEER~ mostly seem to call themselves nonbinary or decide they're women and start calling themselves lesbians. Which is partly why this forum exists.

lesbians barely experience actual, real homophobia

Is that really a can of worms you want to open up? I won't dwell on this, but I will say that just because lesbians experience a different form of homophobia doesn't mean it isn't "real" or that it doesn't have consequences. Sometimes horrific ones, including corrective rape.

As for the rest, well.... You do you.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

FYI, this guy is a troll who keeps making alts, would not take anything he says seriously lol. u/exponent2

[–]schomee 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I dont think you understand how intense homophobia is and how it works in the gay world, where it's meant to be used for and homophobia towards lesbians is more like ricocheting bullets. No bisexual is trying to identify as gay. It's almost like saying a bunch of non pedophiles are trying to appropriate the stigma of pedophilia. It's an extreme example but you understand that the stigma is the barrier. If someone says theyre a pedophile, you believe them. Just like we dont doubt when someone admits they're a rapist. The stigma is the certification. The homophobia is extreme on the male end. They might tell you because you're bi but you're in a cosmopolitan city. Plenty of "straight" men tell me theyre bi all the time but theyre not lining up to claim the word gay from gay people. That's only women who do that because it's "fun" on their end as a costume to put on that they can take off.

What's that saying straight men have? "you can fuck 10,000 women but if you kiss one guy when you were 15, then you'll be gay forever". Lesbians and women dont have a true understanding of homophobia because it's not really meant for them. You have lesbians and bisexual women at war with one another over gatekeeping the word lesbian. The word "gay" is walled off and protected by a giant powerful barrier of stigma that keeps it "clean".

[–]RaspberryTea 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

...Since I feel like I just wandered into the "Woman yelling at cat" meme, imma bow out now

[–]schomee 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

you're attempting to blame everything on "fake bi's". I explained to you that unlike in the lesbian world, in the gay world, there arent bi men clamoring to appropriate the word bi or gay. There's too much of a stigma. That was to counter your "all these fake bi people" deflection. I went into very thorough detail to explain this to you. You understood it very well. Almost all bi men are deeply closeted.

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No bisexual is trying to identify as gay.

This is absolutely untrue, though they may be rare. These bis make being "gay" a huge part of their identity, usually have some trauma with the opposite sex, and are heavily same-sex leaning. Have you changed your stance? I remember agreeing on this earlier.

Plenty of "straight" men tell me theyre bi all the time

Really? When/where? What demographic? I've just never met one, which ik is anecdotal. edit: Wait, are they actually straight or not? Unclear.

The word "gay" is walled off and protected by a giant powerful barrier of stigma that keeps it "clean".

Ik we're talking about bis here, but plenty of women are appropriating the word (though for fetishistic reasons), so it's not much of a stretch to say that bi men may do the same.

As for straights appropriating bi, that seems to be a lot less common than people think, and is used as a scapegoat every single time, as if no bisexual has ever done anything that could harm the rest of LGB (since they are also hurting themselves).

[–]schomee 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My main point was that i highly doubt a bunch of straight men are identifying as bi or gay for fun. In their world, there's massive stigma attached to it. Even bi men have trouble coming out as bi so it's not like it's some fun costume for a straight man to try on for fun. If there are cases, it's usually from extremely cosmopolitan areas.

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My main point was that i highly doubt a bunch of straight men are identifying as bi or gay for fun.

I agree with that, but there are bi men who identify as gay for many reasons.

[–]PassionateIntensity 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, who's that actor-- uh...Ezra Miller. Straight douchebag calls himself queer because he's attracted to women who call themselves non-binary. It's rare but it happens in super lefty spaces sometimes.

[–]usehername 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Schomee, lesbians are executed along with gay men in many countries.

This whole "appropriating lesbianism" thing is exclusive to bisexual women since lesbians barely experience actual, real homophobia and their sexuality is a fun fetish and costume to put on.

These yaoi gals are also using "gay" as a "fun fetish and costume to put on", doesn't mean they don't experience actual, real homophobia, though it is different because they're different sexes.

[–]Destresse🇨🇵 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The difference is, while gay men are usually punished in public, lesbians are punished in private.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hot damn. I've never heard anyone put it that way before but that's so true.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is just so many of bisexuals... like, what are they even doing there?

Many are female yaoi fetishists... they're already lying about their sex, why not lie about anything else?

I just want to say-- I relate a lot to your perspective, all the "lesbian" subs are overriden with people who are not female and homosexual. I think we should be able to have lesbian-only and gay men-only communities (and we could also have overlap communities, e.g. a homosexual/bisexual women's group, in addition to the more exclusive spaces, as an option).

However, I think it's important to acknowledge that a LOT of these "bisexual" users you see making inane comments on AGB are often a) literal children and/or b) identity tourists who define the word "bisexual" as being "multiple-genders attraction," and they aren't actually same-sex attracted. They're a very different group than, say, the bisexual people on sub, who I've found to be thoughtful and respectful.

[–]MyLongestJourney 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Maybe one should start a r/homosexualmen sub.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Or maybe bi men should start a sub for themselves.

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There already are several.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why occupy gay and lesbian spaces, then?

[–]usehername 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess they just want to feel included and discuss MLM (cringe term, ik) related topics and don't know how much damage they're doing. This is why I also support a mixed space.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It will be b& within minutes.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hey,give it a shot.

You could say that transmen are welcome as long as they are attracted to their own sex (female).They are men but this sub is for homosexual men.There.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A sub full of gay men and butch lesbians sounds like my kinda sub, if ya do make the sub I'd give it a follow 😂

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You mistakenly assume that they really care about being included into this space. Nope, that's not the case at all. They want to be the ones in control of it, of any LGBT space, really. That's the only thing that matters to them.

So you would have to invite trans mods for it to be untouchable.

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The word "gay" describes homosexual males, so they already have one.

[–]MyLongestJourney 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It is not as accurate as homosexual.

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

They're synonyms, so it is.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Unfortunately I've seen some people use "gay" synonymously with "LGBTQ+".

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I had a friend who used called herself 'gay' around her parents because she said it was easier than to explain to them that she identifies as one of the flavours of LGBTQ+++++.

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

and u/reluctant_commenter

Cringe. Appropriation.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Huh? Sorry, did I miss something?

[–]MyLongestJourney 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some lesbian women use the word gay to describe their sexuality despite not being male.A very famous example is Ellen Degeneres

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

True, but to me it just seems like they're uncomfortable with the word "lesbian".

[–]MyLongestJourney 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh they are.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree with you. I respect the fact that minority groups need their own spaces, but maybe there should also be a third forum where they're mixed. r/AskMLM ? Kind of a cringe term, but it could work.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was about to comment this. I would love a mixed forum for homosexual/bisexual women. It would be nice to have a space with the whole pool of same sex attracted women, without any of the gender identity nonsense.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure, that could be an interesting exchange of perspectives.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The truwwlw sub on Reddit crashed and burned because it got moderated into the ground and no one could talk without half the thread being deleted. It had only lesbian mods.

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well reddit is reddit. I think it may go over better with a male version, but reddit is pretty fucked in general. I'm surprised that AGB is still hanging on, but if they brave the tides, maybe things will get better at reddit. We should have those subs here, on Saidit, with both les and bi mods.

[–]thump 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had no idea gay men experience this too! Thanks for sharing. It could very well be that this lack of distinction (and everything becoming "gay" or "queer™") has contributed to straights believing they have a place in the LGB<QT community. I wonder sometimes if calling things gay as an insult led to these outcasts, otherwise straight, "reclaiming" it as if they are gay and lesbian people reclaiming D and F. Does anyone else think that if it was made more clear that being bi means more than being equally attracted to both sexes, that this transinsanity would be nearly impossible?

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

This thread is a hot mess and I don’t even have time to make it through the entire thing to discover the full scope of just how much. I’m sorry to the bisexuals who are being lumped in with bad actors and are being made to answer for the actions of said bad actors. I like that this space is for LGB not just LG. While I have witnessed some disrespect in here exhibited toward homosexuality recently, its been by a recent vocal tiny minority and I have not seen anything like that from the vast majority of bisexual contributors, so many of whom have contributed valuable content and perspectives that help me form my own perspectives. Thank you to all of you. ❤️

My own idea of the best way to respect both bisexuality and homosexuality in the same forum is to have in the forum rules the basic definitions of those sexual orientations. That one who has experienced sexual attraction to both sexes at any point is bisexual and that homosexuality is exclusive same sex attraction. And that all of this is regardless of gender identity. And that to participate in the forum, you must agree to those definitions. To work together we have to work from common definitions and understandings.

Reddit is a lost cause because it has gone full TRA and in support of identities without any factual basis. It’s a toxic waste dump and we can analyze until the end of time all the many reasons that that occurred. For this reason a place like r/AGB can’t implement this policy now but a new r/AGB elsewhere could do so.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Late to the party as well. Lots of people here regard /r/AGB as being the last sane space on Reddit. We might be too emotionally attached to it and it's crazier than we think it is. Now we're downstream of Reddit shenanigans and bickering amongst ourselves. There's that toxicity you mentioned. Just kinda rubs off, don't it?

[–]chazzstrong 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

Ah, the good ol 'You can't be in this space unless you align with my ruleset'. I'm fairly certain I've been kicked out of 'spaces' on reddit before using that very same reasoning...

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

I have an honest question here. Why do you bisexuals think it's fair that you should get bisexual-only spaces but gays and lesbians don't? Like just looking at reddit, subreddits exclusively for actual lesbians get banned (r/truelesbians, r/biologicallesbians, etc.), subs for gay men constantly get invaded/brigaded, like r/AGB, but subs exclusively for bisexuals/non-monosexuals like r/bisexuals and r/truebisexuals are still up and running.

So like, I just wonder. Why do we lesbians and gay men get so much grief for wanting spaces exclusively for homosexual females/homosexual males when you bisexuals yourselves get your own spaces that are exclusive of gay people? Just curious.

[–]chazzstrong 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Do me a favor, don't lump me up with some random group of people I don't know because we share 'x' in common.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're eager to defend them invading our spaces, so explain your mindset.

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

r/TrueBisexuals got it's mods replaced a long time ago while it was privated. No one here or who was subbed has access to it anymore.

The rest are enby/trans friendly and so do not gatekeep for heterosexuals. Not bi exclusive.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The rest are enby/trans friendly and so do not gatekeep for heterosexuals.

Same as every other sub on reddit :/

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I can never be at ease in such places because I have to play a type of sexuality Among Us. Are you a man who is attracted to women and enbies? Are you a women who is attracted to men and transwomen? etc. It can get like that because of the neo-definitions of bi. I love the truebis sidebar rules, but reddit didn't.

Which is why I mostly just stick to the niche hobbyist subs that have nothing to do with this stuff like r/aquariums. While there's no gatekeeping or whatnot, I can't imagine they would start transing and neo-pronouning the fish🐠

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I can't imagine they would start transing and neo-pronouning the fish🐠

Don't misgender fish; fish decides what gender aligns best with fishself.

[–]NutterButterFlutterStill waving into the void 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've been wondering what happened to r/TrueBisexuals. Any dramatic juicy screenshots to share?

I made s/bisexuals for them here and a couple of their mods came over, and have since abandoned this site, so I couldn't get any updates.

[–]chazzstrong 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

....that name. Why?

[–]MarkJeffersonRaga Shave 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

?

[–]chazzstrong 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's either your actual name, and you're blissfully oblivious, or you've played Life is Strange and have a sick sense of humor.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I mean, if specific space is meant to be for a very specific group of people, why invading it by others is supposed to be a good thing in your opinion?

[–]chazzstrong 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

So if a bisexual man is in a relationship with a gay man, he isn't welcome in "gay spaces" because he might have been attracted to a woman at some point in the past? Does he have to abandon all of his gay friends or hangouts if he ever enters into a different relationship with the opposite sex? Are we going to create some kind of score system for bisexuals, where they gain or lose points depending on their partners at the time, and they must maintain a specific score to be allowed into certain "spaces"?

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it's more of an issue when bisexual people on gay or lesbian subs don't state that they're bi, and then say that they're also attracted to the opposite sex. They know they're bi, but other people don't, and it gives the impression that gay men/lesbians might be capable or willing to be with the opposite sex, which isn't the case.

[–]chazzstrong 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But...but we KNOW that's not the case. If you're a gay man, you aren't into women, and if you're a lesbian you aren't into men. Anyone who claims otherwise is obviously bisexual no matter what they classify themselves as.
To me this just feels like jumping on an opportunity to shit on bisexuals. I kid you not, when I first read this post, I immediately assumed it was some woke moron brigading this sub trying to stir shit up between the groups opposed to the trans-craze....but then I saw the OP has been posting for quite some time, and others started agreeing, and I'm just sitting here thinking that this is the kind of bullshit I came to this community to avoid.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Anyone who claims otherwise is obviously bisexual no matter what they classify themselves as.

Cool, you know that and I know that, too. But people who come to r/askgaybros to educate themselves don't necessairly know that, hence why they ask a question. And your bisexual fellows first say that they are gay ("because I would never actually date a woman, so it's easier for me to use that label") and then in "would you date a trans person?" threads they go full "yes!!!!! anyone who says no is transphobic!"

Stop playing the victimized part now, because I didn't make this post to hate on bisexuals, but to point out how harmful their presence in our spaces is. I'm not accusing all bisexuals of it, because I'm fully aware that those who are good people don't invade our spaces, only black sheeps do.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

We're talking about specific subreddit. Your boyfriend can easily visit it without you.

[–]chazzstrong 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Fucking Christ, we really have learned nothing, have we?

[–]schomee 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're inventing ridiculous scenarios to deflect from serious issues that make you complicit in homophobia. So if bisexuals want to be ridiculous, then yes...you need a point system. It's best if you help us make one then just leaving us alone to create one on our own.

How about not bringing homophobic partners into gay spaces or pretending you're persecuted for not being represented by gays and lesbians? Or not lecturing gays and lesbians on how it's ridiculous to want equal rights like gay marriage...do you remember that phenomenon? Almost like you dont have our best interests at heart and your default mode of being is pushing heterosexual supremacy.

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

You know it is sad because here I am constantly defending my gay and lesbian friends and yet I get nothing but shit from either side. I'm not good enough for either community apparently and how the fuck am I supposed to find the bisexuals? I have never seen a bi club so riddle me that. I am invisble most of the time because bi and lesbian women are harder to find here in the Midwest but that must just mean I'm straight right? The whole 3 people I dated. Sorry my numbers are too rookie for ya. Fuck off with this B hatred already it is getting old. Fight the real fucking enemies please.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I have never seen a bi club

And whose fault is that, exactly? If you would actually make an effort, you would have your own spaces. Instead, you prefer to latch on gay and lesbian ones, so no one ever made any for you, because why would they?

You cry so often about bisexual erasure, yet you're the ones causing this erasure. You're not straight and homosexual at the same time; you're bisexual. Start acting like it.

I mean, thanks for your support, but for one bi person helping us, we have ten more who spread misinformation by pretending to be gay or shaming us for being "close-minded".

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I never claimed to latch onto gay spaces, in fact, I found it annoying my straight friends found that an amusing hobby. I just don't want to be lumped in with fake or stupid bi people that are apparently worse than the T the way this post talks.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So I should not call them bisexuals, even though they are bisexuals, because it offends you?

You really have the T's mentality of a constant victimhood, friend.

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No just stop assuming we are all the same. Dumbass. Do I go around assuming all gay people are as insufferable as you? I sure hope not!

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Who says I'm assuming you are all the same?

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd say invisibility/erasure might be due to the extreme variety that bisexuals come in when it comes to attractions. It's not often that it's an even split or 50/50 male female attraction, and then there's sheer numbers against you. You're more likely to find a straight/bi man as a woman and a straight/bi woman as a man, even though you're attracted to some degree to both.

That's not to say there aren't bi people who overstate their attraction to the same sex. I have a friend who talked about how 'gay' she was (she's bi), and how much she adores women, but she has only once had a brief relationship with a woman (like a few days before they broke up) and never tried to find dates with other women, despite her insistence that she's more attracted to women. She's in a relationship with a man, but still insists she's more attracted to women. Yes, I know numbers are not on her side, but she has not shown any interest in looking for women on dating sites or trying to meet them through groups/meetups. You can see why sometime people might mistake bisexuals for just straight people, especially if they've known them for years.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Fuck off with this B hatred already it is getting old. Fight the real fucking enemies please.

I understand OP's frustration but I'm inclined to agree with you. It is unfair to conflate the actions of one group of bisexuals (or people who identify as bisexual, but may just be identity tourists...) with bisexual people in general; if society did that, then gay people would be unfairly maligned by the actions of the San Francisco gay men's choir.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

gay people would be unfairly maligned by the actions of the San Francisco gay men's choir.

And we absolutely are, lol.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yep, and shouldn't be!

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Perhaps, but who even says I'm calling out all bisexuals? I've mentioned a very specific group of bisexuals that invades r/askgaybros and bisexuals in the comments to this post all go "hurr durr not all bisexuals!". You have – and this time I mean all of bisexuals, apparently – very similar mentality to Ts in department of making yourself the victims, even when we're discussing part of your community doing something shitty.

The post is about bi people who invade gay and lesbian spaces and you make it all about yourselves and supposed "oppression". If that's the case, please explain on what basis do you feel entitled to be let into our spaces.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

your community

I'm a homosexual woman. If you're talking about "your community" as in the LGB community-- which I do consider to be my people, yourself included-- then yes, I do think we sometimes do "something shitty" and make mistakes.

bisexuals in the comments to this post all go "hurr durr not all bisexuals!".

I think your concerns are legitimate, and I'll admit, I've seen a similar phenomenon myself in supposedly-lesbian spaces on Reddit where some people are like, "I love dick!" and don't bother to mention that they're actually bisexual (or even straight). It's a difficult topic to talk about on LGB forums but I still think it's worthwhile to talk about.

Having said that-- some of your comments were "all bisexuals," lol. Sweeping generalizations like this:

Yeah, they can relate so much that somehow their takes are always tainted and unrelatable for gay men and send so many wrong messages in the name of our community that sometimes bystanders don't know wtf is our point when we keep saying contradicting stuff.

You don't get to scream "eRaSuRe!" when it suits your whims and then basically call for it yourselves, just because you want to be included in other letter's spaces.

It sounds like the bisexual people you're referring to on Reddit act like that, but IMO, (most) bisexuals on Saidit don't, and certainly not the guy you were replying to, who is not even bisexual...

To be clear-- a couple people in this thread seem to think it's unfair that some gay men, and lesbian women, want their own spaces without bisexuals. I can't get behind that, although I sympathize with the position bisexuals are in.

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Omg thank you for not judging me based solely on my sexuality. New concept for some of the folks here...

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah seems like there's a lot of frustration running high, I'm sorry some people were making sweeping generalizations. I appreciate the mod comment that got added at the top.

I get people's frustration too, just, we're all in this together, in this weird experience of being same-sex-attracted, and LGB communities have gotten to the points they're currently at against a backdrop of homophobia... worth trying to keep it civil when we have to sort out stuff with each other, IMO.

[–]schomee 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

There's a giant flood of bisexuals lecturing gays and lesbians on their own subreddits about transexuals and why theyre bigoted for not being sexually attracted to them. Transexuals are powerless without bisexuals backing them up. You know this. Instead of being self centered, how about putting more energy into regulating bisexuals so they stop ruining you and harming your gay/lesbian friends. This whole, "you better not say anything bad about bisexuals or else i'll try to sabotage you" shows you're not interested in solving the problem.

There's a massive bitterness that bisexuals have towards gays and lesbians for being wary of your "straight side". So they end up partnering with every other letter to sabotage the gay community and i think you know that very well. This whole "B with the T" movement empowers them.

Gays and Lesbians barely talk to one another and our communities barely interact. If gay men are complaining about bisexual men the EXACT same way that lesbians are complaining about bisexual women, then maybe there's a pattern going on that needs to be addressed. This isnt a power struggle but you make it seem like you're too busy engaged with one to care.

Gays and Lesbians are basically homogenous clones of one another and belong to one culture and community that we have to answer to. Bisexuals come from everywhere. You cant form a community even if you tried because there are too many and from too diverse a background and can easily assimilate within whatever heterosexual culture you were born into.

To you, transbians are "gross" and funny looking and you can walk away from all of this. To us, theyre a political danger. Thats the difference.

And bisexuals dont have a community because theyre not willing to collectively suffer through the massive dehumanization and suffering that comes from being out. You present yourself as a victim of circumstance but the circumstance is from your own apathy. It's as ridiculous as saying, "why is there no bisexual community in saudi arabia"....cause why would they care enough to? Getting spit on in public is no fun and neither is people laughing at you or executing you.

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So I should come out as bi to you so you can go off on me to control all the other bi? Ok guy.

Maybe just stop blaming B for shit other alphabet people are doing and realize that most of those people you are mad at are assholes regardless of how they 'identify'. You don't have to pick fights with the ones who defend you.

How much longer will I defend people who talk shit about my comminity that 'doesn't even exist'.

You just want everyone to suffer because you are a miserable little person. Admit it!

[–]schomee 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Pretty sure if you go outside to "defend gays and lesbians", there'll be a giant ocean of bisexuals swinging their fists at your face even if you're some old granny. And you're not defending gays and lesbians. You're defending your own interests and same sex attraction which happens to be homosexuals and bisexuals have in common.

Since you never bothered to suffer through the process of building a bisexual community, guess who built some satanic nest to lure all the bisexual kids to? If you bothered to look into the bisexual community online, it's absolutely consumed by bisexuals incessantly prostrating themselves over and over again insisting that theyre not transphobic and that "bi means more than 2". It's like north korea where they constantly have to recite the mantra "bi means more than 2" over and over and over again.

At least gays and lesbians are just being spit at. The bisexual kids are rocking back and forth like theyre in prayer, apologizing for their very existence. Not only do you damage gays and lesbians, but you people constantly forget that your job is to give a better future to bisexual kids.

It just seems like the majority of you are interested in dating politics to the point where you've left the bi kids to fend for themselves. You're worried about control? Why are your bi children praying to AGP men?

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Listen you loser, fuck off. I have defended gay and lesbian kids my whole life you don't know me or shit about my life. I should reach through this keyboard and teach you some fucking respect.

[–]schomee 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

if only you had the same energy when it comes to the homophobia from bi people on twitter. You're in a minority amongst your kind. Why exactly do you think gays and lesbians are reacting this way? Because we're just crazy? Evil? That we're part of some super sexy VIP club that you're not invited to because you're not amazing like us? Or maybe because of the systemic dehumanization coming from "inside the house".

[–]GreykittymommaMagical lady 💜 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For one, I don't have a twitter dude. It is a cesspool. I do things in the REAL WORLD omg I know, foreign concept to some of you. I vote for local gay men that run for office, I speak out online about trans assholes as well and get BANNED. I have a permanent ban on Reddit from telling women they are being lied to by TRA.

Keep telling me what I'm not doing.

What the fuck do you do besides attack bi people? Biphobe. LMAO

[–]schomee 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The biggest problem is when theyre there, they end up LECTURING gays and telling them to stop being so transphobic when these people usually act like sexual tourists and have no idea the gay community isnt a 24.7 sex carnival but its infrastructure is also used for maintaining gay civil rights, gay humanization, concentrating political energy for gay representation.

They resent this, dont contribute and theyre the ones who end up partnering with every other letter to sabotage these places. There's also quite a large "B with the T" movement online.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Exactly. I still remember that bisexual guy who said that sexuality is fluid, I responded that I'm glad his sexuality is fluid, good for him, but mine isn't and then he started insisting that everyone's sexuality is fluid, mine to, that there's a theoretical female somewhere, that I could lose my mind for and some other homophobic stuff coming purely from tainted bisexual perspective.

[–]schomee 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They dont seem to care about the consequences of their actions in a cultural sense. Spreading this whole "sexuality is fluid" nonsense affects the lives of gay and lesbian children and it compromises our rights. If "sexuality is fluid", then gays should shut up and stop demanding civil rights they can easily achieve if they just "found the right woman/man".

But it's very clear when these people speak about the gay community, they only think of rainbow flags, alcohol and the pride parade and car commercials. That's ALL they've ever thought about. Not civil rights, homophobia, being fired from jobs, institutions not recognizing us as equals, conversion therapy camps.

These people only ever "came out" when we did all the work and their biggest problem is sexual/dating problems. Because they dont see themselves in long term relationships as gay/lesbian couples so they never have to think about gay civil rights because none of that matters to them.

They talk about "exclusion", im pretty sure the gay and lesbian kids you sneer at in your church as you get married to a man feel pretty fucking excluded because you belong to a church that teaches those gay kids theyre subhuman and they have to go build their own community...which you later want to invade and ruin.

They simply just dont give a shit. So why do we?

And just look at their language and the sense of entitlement they feel. Since when have gays and lesbians ever told bisexuals that we feel excluded from them? Never. Not even once. Because we acknowledged we were never with them and they were never with us. They never lifted a finger to help us and we never expected them to since they were happy oppressing or ignoring us and laughing at us. It was just very well understood that we're not with them. (thats why they have to make up ridiculous stories like how "brenda howard" created the first pride parade...which makes no sense at all. It's like saying "a bisexual woman invited gays..and it was almost exclusively gay men back then...were invited to their own "pride march" for people to spit at them and throw things at them while they marched.

Thats as insulting as that marsha p johnson bullshit.

They want to feel a part of a community? Build your own and let the gays and lesbians invade it. See how they like it. It doesnt help when theyre loaded with massive amounts of internalized homophobia and 90% of them have this: "i can be sexually attracted to the same sex but would be disgusted by going on a date with them or forming an emotional bond...and i demand you validate this identity as heteroromantic or you're a bigot"...again, we know this about them. Which is why we're not really compatible in any way.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Personally, I think the subreddit should be for discussion of homosexuality and homosexual attraction, which bisexuals feel in addition to heterosexual attraction. When someone asks a question like, "Do gay men have sex with women," then obviously the question excludes bisexuals since it is asking about gay men, but for most of the good posts about how sexy men are or discrimination for being in a same sex relationship, bisexual men can relate just as easily as a gay man.

Again, there are some differences where bisexuals can't relate, but they do feel homosexual attraction and can relate to that. The only thing they can't relate to is lack of heterosexual attraction and consequences of that

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Personally, I think the subreddit should be for discussion of homosexuality and homosexual attraction, which bisexuals feel in addition to heterosexual attraction.

Wait a minute, I keep hearing that bisexuals are bisexuals, not just homosexuals and heterosexuals at the same time.

You don't get to scream "eRaSuRe!" when it suits your whims and then basically call for it yourselves, just because you want to be included in other letter's spaces.

When someone asks a question like, "Do gay men have sex with women," then obviously the question excludes bisexuals since it is asking about gay men

The subreddit's name is askGAYbros. There's no need to specify "do gay men do something..." when it's implied in the name of the subreddit. People answering to these questions should ALWAYS be gays, not bisexuals.

bisexual men can relate just as easily as a gay man

Yeah, they can relate so much that somehow their takes are always tainted and unrelatable for gay men and send so many wrong messages in the name of our community that sometimes bystanders don't know wtf is our point when we keep saying contradicting stuff.

Again, there are some differences where bisexuals can't relate, but they do feel homosexual attraction and can relate to that.

They don't feel homosexual attraction, because homosexuality is an exclusive sexual attraction to the same sex. Bisexuality is it's own thing. Stop.

I really don't like how bisexuals abuse their privilege. It's very in style of the Ts. Gays want to have a space for themselves? No way, that's biphobia, you can't exclude us! Someone calls a bi person "gay" – "oMg eRaSuRE!!!!"

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gay rights movement: a sociopolitical unit of Gays and later on Gays and Lesbians.

Bisexual in a country with real homophobia: straight.

LGB: a political unit, not a social unit.

LGBTQ+: definitely not a social unit.

[–]BigMommyMilkersYes, they're real 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Bi people (overwhelmingly in heterosexual relationships with a preference for the opposite sex) are annoying when in gay/lesbian spaces in general.