Women's IssuesWhere are the straight-identifying women in relationships with trans men/trans-identifying females?

submitted by yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" from self.LGBDropTheT

Sometimes the absences do a lot of work in exposing the facade of gender identity and the false media narrative propping it up. Like where are the FtM Caitlyn Jenners (i.e. heterosexual women who have had kids and then come out middle age and later as “gay” trans men)? I noticed this other absence. Public media, social media, and Big Tech generally are doing a lot of work to convince gay men they should be attracted to females, lesbians that they should be attracted to males, and men that they’re definitely totally straight for having sex with and partnering with trans women. For example:

https://www.playboy.com/read/yes-you-re-still-straight-if-you-date-trans-women

https://www.vice.com/en/article/kb4jw9/the-straight-men-who-have-sex-with-trans-women

So where is the equivalent narrative on the FtM side? Pushy Teen Vogue and Cosmo are notably absent.

Lesbians aren’t particularly known for being pushy with straight women, so I can understand that aspect of it, but the media doesn’t seem interested in virtue signaling here. Could it be there’s no need? As in I think most women who partner with a trans man probably don’t think of themselves as straight and are less likely to be adverse to adopting another label for their sexual orientation like pansexual, bisexual or queer. Some even still identify as gay.

Have you noticed this? Can you think of any such couples and do you know any personally?

Edit: I thought of some possible real life and fictional examples, none of them recent:

  • In the L Word, Max who is FtM does initially stealth a straight girl into dating her before revealing she’s female.

  • Brandon Teena - I am not well-read on Brandon. Nor have I seen the movie (is it worth a watch?), but I think Brandon might have had a girlfriend who didn’t know she was female. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I still can’t think of examples of women knowingly dating trans men and calling themselves straight or even any posts online really where a woman in such a situation wanted reassurance that she was straight.

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[–][deleted] 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The straight women I've known don't want anything to do with pussy. It's not their thing, end of story, no ifs-ands-or-buts. There is no maybe, there is no "open your mind". They absolutely do care about the genitalia of their partner, including the look and feel, because having sex matters. The second they know the dick doesn't exist, or is sub-par ... it's goodbye and goodnight.

Oh, they might let the person finger them or go down on them, don't get me wrong ... women have woken up to the fact that their pleasure matters and will get their orgasm if a situation has hit the edge and could still be discrete. But they know it's another woman and they typically won't do it at all, even if they're crazy horny. Because they understand that there will be a life interacting with the person after getting off, and they don't want to deal with that just to cum.

In my experience, straight women understand "you're the same sex as me no matter how you look, I'm not gay or bi, goodbye". It's us L-and-B that get all wrapped up into this.

I'm generalizing here, but I think it's because women are more reactive sexually, romantically, and emotionally. We have always had a lot of burdens on our plates, and our pleasure and happiness has been second fiddle because our minds have to manage everyone and everything else first (thanks, gender!). A good amount of women are putting their feet down and demanding what they need now.

The media isn't getting involved in that though, and instead calls women TERFs. Becau$e if they didn't, they would have to delve into the reality that i$ woman/female experience and expo$e their $ource$, and that wouldn't look good or $upport the TWAW narrative.

Straight women are like, "fuck off, I have enough responsibility!". L-and-B are still fringe and in our own little groups, so no one is really paying attention until it impacts them due to spillover.

I think most women who partner with a trans man probably don’t think of themselves as straight and are less likely to be adverse to adopting another label <snip> Can you think of any such couples and do you know any personally?

I'm in my 40s and I don't know a single person who abjucates themselves in this way. I knew plenty in my early 20s, but we all grew up and got over the experimentation and bullshit of our youth.

There was a saying when I was young, US-centric. "You're a democrat in your 20s because you have a heart. You're a republican in your 40s because you have a brain".

[–]reluctant_commenter 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

As in I think most women who partner with a trans man probably don’t think of themselves as straight and are less likely to be less adverse to adopting another label for their sexual orientation like pansexual, bisexual or queer.

Agreed. I would add the following potential reasons for why we might not see more articles like this:

  • "Evil straight man" syndrome - Straight men have been identified in left-wing politics as "the problem" or "evil" more generally, compared to straight women. Many liberals I know (I am liberal myself, for the record) tend to assume that straight women are all on board with supporting minority groups. Straight women's homophobia may get a pass since everyone is focusing on straight men so much.

  • Straight women more likely to be talked into gender identity ideology - You named this one yourself. I think straight men are less likely to buy into belief in gender identity, period-- and this is likely influenced by the pressure to seem "masculine," and same-sex-- NOT same-gender!-- action is seen as a threat to masculinity. Sex really does make a difference in how people act. On the other hand, women are often more pressured to be "harmonious" and may be more likely to succumb to pressure to change how they self-describe/self-identify. edit: Would probably summarize this as, "Same-sex relationships are a threat to traditional "masculinity," whereas submitting to gender identity ideology furthers the traditional "femininity" goal of being harmonious."

  • Straight men more likely to defend their boundaries, thus inciting debate - Straight women are probably less likely to speak up when they're being coerced into an activity they're uncomfortable with, relative to straight men (because of: fears of retaliation/aggression; socialization, "you have to be harmonious!" type of messages that women are pushed into vs. men's being "be manly and fight for yourself"; etc.) So then when a straight man DOES push back on boundary-breaking bullshit, he's also more likely to continue arguing and not stop. Because straight men more often push back, you see more articles about MtFs and straight men than about FtMs and straight women.

  • Society cares a lot more about dicks than pussy - "Take the dick, bigot!" somehow has a better (more popular?) ring to it than "Take the pussy, bigot!"

  • Male aggression patterns, among TRAs - Controversial stuff, but a lot of research suggests that there are sex-based differences in aggression among men (male people) and women (female people). So it is unsurprising that we might see more MtFs than FtMs trying to pressure straight people to have sex with them.

Just my speculations, feel free to poke holes in them.

edit: Also I don't know of any such couples, lol. I've certainly never met one. Or even read about any.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 15 insightful - 11 fun15 insightful - 10 fun16 insightful - 11 fun -  (1 child)

For a reluctant commenter you made quite a bit of comment

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hahaha, I made that username (about a year ago now!) when I was very reluctant to talk about LGB or T issues at all. It is less the case these days. :)

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Controversial stuff, but a lot of research suggests that there are sex-based differences in aggression among men (male people) and women (female people).

This shouldn't be controversial at all, as testosterone is direcly responsible for this. That's why neutered male dogs tend to less agressive than the un-neutered ones.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I had a new feral cat coming around terrorizing my already spayed and neutered ferals, so I trapped the new one, had him neutered, and problem solved. Still a shit of an evil cat, but he's not instigating fights any more.

[–]usehername 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Auntie? Lol jk, thanks for looking out for and neutering/spaying the ferals.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely agree, it shouldn't be. But it offends some people.

[–]serf_n_terfStraight Ally - Surf’s up! 🏄‍♀️ 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t know of any examples but as a straight woman, I think I’d be able to clock a trans man in about 10 seconds if one tried to pick me up. I’m already taller than the average woman and a lot of the trans men I see online seem shorter than average, so there’s clue number one. Their frame, hand size, posture, etc. would also be a dead giveaway. So yeah, they’d have a hard time getting with straight women if they relied solely on “passing”.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yea these days it seems like most are no Buck Angel in terms of stature or even in terms of being “butch” at all. More often they seem tiny and frail even for women like Chase Strangio, Alexander Chen, and Andrew Cray.

Those photos of Chase with Laverne Cox and Andrew with Sarah McBride are pretty revelatory.

[–]serf_n_terfStraight Ally - Surf’s up! 🏄‍♀️ 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I looked up the photos and… yeah. The height/size difference is HUGE. But we’re all supposed to go around like zombies repeating TWAW and TMAM. 🤦‍♀️

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I haven't seen trans men really go after straight women at all. It is a bit weird since trans men who go after men certainly aren't quiet about it.

It is interesting. Maybe they are worried they will create more TERFs if they go after the straight women?

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It is interesting. Maybe they are worried they will create more TERFs if they go after the straight women?

HSTS FtM tend to be more reserved than their MtF counterparts (female socialization intensifies), which means they on average do not throw hissy fits when they get rejected by straight women.

Also, like a portion of self-aware MtFs, they know straight people have no interest in them, so they simply go for a bissexual/lesbian woman instead.

Another thing: notice how FtMs and MtFs who whine about sexual rejection tend to frequent TRA circles in masse. This in part explains their behaviour, as such places embolden them to act in such a way, providing them a comunity of idiots to will assert their stupidity.

[–]serf_n_terfStraight Ally - Surf’s up! 🏄‍♀️ 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I’m a straight woman who’s already a TERF so no worries about creating a TERF over here! 🤣

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is something I have been wanting to discuss here. Its a very interesting phenomenon, I have noticed this as well. Tbh I feel its good in way, nobody deserves ideological bullying that gay men, lesbians and to some extent straight men are subjected to. Straight women just get called TERF for other reasons, not for this. Also, straight women are more picky in general, I've read that a sizeable amount of straight women refuse to date bi men as well. Now, consider this since straight women won't date the lesbian who thinks she's a straight man, this further shrinks the dating pool of "lesbian to straight male'' FTMs and tbh this is really sad. Young gay women need to carefully take their decisions, besides all the misery that lies within the genderist world there is also tons of loneliness. I have read some accounts of lesbians on reddit/twitter who transitioned to FTMs that their "sexuality changed" upon transitioned as in they eventually developed an attraction to males/penis. Not sure if "sexuality changes upon transition" or not, but I do think that this might be some kind of strategy to up their dating game, men on the other hand will at least have sex with them if not relationships, in some cases lesbians partner with such women but that is rare. Life as a transitioned lesbian FTM is hella lonely

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also consider that there are multiple reasons that people fall under the trans umbrella.

There are certain obvious archetypes.

Gay men who are trapped in the hierarchical structure of gender and can't comprehend themselves being effeminate and or attracted to men as a man. Somehow they warp their understanding of reality to call themselves women and they find that makes more sense than a man failing at his gender.

Straight men who develop an autogynophilia fetish. they get off on the public display the more they push into everyone's boundaries.

Straight women who develop the autoandrophilia / fujoshi fetish. They have a weird understanding of gay men as like submissive anime characters.

The female converse that seems to be missing is the gay woman who would transition then demand to be seen as straight. Gay women don't seem to care about failing at their gender. They seem to be trying to escape it so they probably don't care about performing as a man they all seem to be the ones using non-binary like it's a real thing.

Men act out as women because they are homophobic about their own sexuality so they claim to be straight by any means. Women act out as men because they just want to be anything but women so they don't care so much about being viewed real men as long as they don't need to be a woman.

[–]millicentfawcett 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's harder for media to spin a beneficial angle for straight men and straight women. By straight I mean the majority of hets who don't question their orientation post puberty, obviously a small number do question later in life and come out as bi/gay.

That majority generally have a vague life plan that at some point in their 20s/30s involves having kids. Even if they can be persuaded politically that TWAW and TMAM they aren't primed early on for the possibility of IVF, sperm donation, surrogacy or adoption in the way gay and lesbian people are - until something goes wrong it's not really a consideration.

Average, well rounded and healthy straight people are unlikely to be persuaded out of the easiest and most sexually attractive life path for them (opposite sex relationships) in exchange for some flags, glitter and inclusivity. Why would they? Straight people have a plentiful dating pool as it is. Much easier for the media to focus on anyone who sits outside of being straight.

Equally I think gay men, although targeted, are unlikely to perceive much benefit to themselves.

Sadly I think this is why lesbians and to an extent bi women, end up being the focus of both TW & TM much of the time. It's the double whammy of being women (who are generally more agreeable and empathetic) but unlike many straight women are less likely to be fixated on the heteronormative life path of dating-marriage-babies. Hence the erroneous assumption that convention (or genitals) shouldn't matter to lesbians and an expectation they be flexible with how they identify.

[–]Radish 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I worked with a woman who is married to an FtM. She has only dated and married men previously, and claims to be straight. We are only work friends. She's never told me about her "husband" being a woman, so I'm not supposed to know. But I don't see a lot of depictions in the media or popular culture, for sure.

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like where are the FtM Caitlyn Jenners (i.e. heterosexual women who have had kids and then come out middle age and later as “gay” trans men)?

I see them a lot in my local LGB(T) Facebook group. They've also taken over the adjacent discord server. It's interesting to see the disparity between the actual same-sex couples who post and are active in these spaces (typically working class or in poverty, struggling to get by financially) and these dysphoric straight women (middle class, has a nerdy husband that can support them as well as kids). It makes it aggravating when you see them e-begging for double mastectomy surgeries among people who wouldn't even dare to start a gofundme when they can't afford to see the dentist.

With FtMs dating "straight" women (either actually heterosexual and coerced or genuinely bisexual or lesbian), I see it moreso online, too. Mostly when I was younger on Tumblr or Youtube. But then again, it was always the FtM's blog or youtube channel where they were talking about the women they dated rather than the woman speaking for herself.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Brandon Teena - I am not well-read on Brandon. Nor have I seen the movie (is it worth a watch?), but I think Brandon might have had a girlfriend who didn’t know she was female. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I am. You are correct. Tina Brandon committed several rapes by deception,with more than one woman to boot. I can not believe I failed to realize that what she was doing was rape by deception,when I first heard about her case. I feel sick with myself and sick about Tina. I do feel sick for her rape and murder as well.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I still can’t think of examples of women knowingly dating trans men and calling themselves straight or even any posts online really where a woman in such a situation wanted reassurance that she was straight.

Well, there is a sub-celebrity FtM here that has a straight identified wife, but it's not something the media likes to put too much focus on.

Also, the fact that said FtM celebrity tends to not be very woke (she dropped some interesting remarks about gay men in some interviews) might be a factor in this.

Public media, social media, and Big Tech generally are doing a lot of work to convince gay men they should be attracted to females, lesbians that they should be attracted to males, and men that they’re definitely totally straight for having sex with and partnering with trans women. For example:

https://www.playboy.com/read/yes-you-re-still-straight-if-you-date-trans-women

https://www.vice.com/en/article/kb4jw9/the-straight-men-who-have-sex-with-trans-women

All the effort the media has put into normalizing GAMPs as 'true and honest' straight men have failed miserably, as nobody takes it seriously.

They're more agressive with the propaganda in regards to gays and lesbians because they have more power inside their social circles, that's it.

They're cowards.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because most of them are autoandrophilic and date each other (or not at all)?

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Brandon Teena - I am not well-read on Brandon. Nor have I seen the movie (is it worth a watch?), but I think Brandon might have had a girlfriend who didn’t know she was female. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Just came across this when reminding myself about the story. Interesting paper from 2000, haven't had time to read it all yet:

"Disciplining the Transgendered: Brandon Teena, Public Representation, and Normativity"

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55911104.pdf

ETA: https://web.archive.org/web/20210723230232/https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55911104.pdf

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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    [–]automoderatorHuman-Exclusionary Radical Overlord[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

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