all 19 comments

[–]JulienMayfair 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think what you have is just a bunch of people lost in their own imaginations, probably related to the consumption of porn and unproductive ways of dealing with personal trauma. It's somewhat comparable to people who are into astrology and feel the need to categorize themselves through it, and people do get deeply into astrology.

[–]spicebutton[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

i dont think they feel theyre that crazy. theyre being highly inarticulate but theyre definitely trying to say something complex.

[–]JulienMayfair 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

OK, if I'm trying to take them seriously, I might observe that the problem seems to be "femininity" and possibly the fraught concept that femininity has become in the sense that to be "liberated" is to reject what women used to be congratulated for (performing femininity). Do these women perceive their desire to be sexually aggressive towards men something that makes them "not-women"?

[–]spicebutton[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

what i find strange is that they reject their own femininity and then embrace "gay femininity"...so theyre going after something they already have but need it reinterpreted for them through gay males?

[–]JulienMayfair 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I suppose it's edgy for a guy to be effeminate, but not for a woman???

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

They just wanna be not like the other girls

[–]spicebutton[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that wouldn't drive someone to this much complex damage and degeneracy.

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They feel that being a feminine gay man would be extremely humiliating, which arouses them sexually and activates their persecution complex which allows them to feel like brave martyrs sticking it to the man.

edit: I also want to add that they are also jealous of how feminine gay men can embrace their femininity when they couldn't even do it as a woman, despite obviously really wanting to.

[–]boypower 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think it's a toxic defense mechanism against how femininity in women attracts attention from men. I've seen some tiktoks of women who essentially say these men who stare at me are queer/gay, because I am non-binary/trans. It feels like a massive cope. They are not comfortable with the kind of femininity they showcase and how it attracts attention they don't want, so they masquerade behind a label that (allegedly) puts off men they don't want attention from, and if they do get attention, they can feel more secure and gain some sort of power in that '' haha, this guy looking at me is a total queer and he doesn't even know it haha, bet he'd freak out if he knew '' kind of way.

I've heard some women, who aren't genderflakes or trans, sometimes decide to go bald because that really lessens the attention they get from men. I feel like a similar thing is happening here, just much more severe and delusional.

[–]linda_senora 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think I once saw a young girl state what you just did: ' haha, this guy looking at me is a total queer and he doesn't even know it haha, bet he'd freak out if he knew ''.

Needless to say, if she were to inform those guys who leer at her that she identifies as non-binary/trans, they would laugh at her.

[–]spicebutton[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

if that makes sense then it would be applied to straight men who say their attraction to women is as lesbians and not straight men.

[–]boypower 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why would it? The societal influences that cause straight men and women to transition can be very varied. In the end, the only thing that applies to both is that they are so far in their delusions so they need to keep up with their delusions by making up extremely vivid but nonsense stories about how they are definitely what they say and feel they are.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

If they experienced attraction towards men in the same way gay men do then wouldn't they have a lot more focus on dicks and be more understanding of gay men liking dicks?

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Careful! You're using logic where it was never meant to be applied

[–]hellonumpty 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Whenever I've read straight women (FTMs) saying these things, it's because they read and relate to a lot of m/m pairings in fiction and read smutty fanfics about those characters. These fics are mostly written by women. So the attraction they're actually experiencing is simply through a lens of another (most likely) straight woman.

I think it's fetishisation but also a lot of these women seem to have issues with straight men and their femininity in relation to straight men, and so gay men feel 'safer' than straight men do. I also think there's certain straight women (FTMs included in this) who find themselves only attracted to gay men which I've assumed there's something going on with them mentally or emotionally to only be interested in men who are unavailable and will never, ever want you.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's an interesting take and goes hand in hand with AGPs obsessed with porn imagery.

Yaoi made by women for women about gay men.

Porn made by men for men about gay women.

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

for a straight woman to say she's feminine and yet her femininity is not good enough for her so she needs to conceptualize her femininity as a stereotypically gay guy, and the stereotypically gay guy experiences his femininity as a straight woman (when he's 5 minutes away from transing). It's clearly all cultural and i understand why some damaged gay child would experience this but why would a straight woman?

Some straight women really feel that gay male femininity is superior in some way to femininity in women. Maybe part of the appeal is that the man can take off his costume (in the sense of drag, or even just remove makeup/feminine clothing; I'm just talking about performative aspects of femininity here) at the end of the day and be naturally masculine (compared to a woman). I'm picturing a regular guy in sweats with no makeup here. Another appeal may be the fact that despite the fact that femininity in men is often demonized, a suburban, slightly sheltered young woman/girl (these gals tend to be young or occassionally a little slow and mid-30s, but I haven't seen them much older than that) who doesn't know any gay, especially feminine gay, men may not understand how hard it is, but she can turn on the TV and watch RuPaul's Drag Race and think being a feminine gay guy is just one big dramatic, fun party.

As for the ones who do have a little more insight into the struggles feminine men face, they may learn that from church and/or existing around poor people (gender roles ramped up in those communities), and in that case see being a feminine male as someone rebellious. She may feel that being that person is the "fuck you" she's always wanted to say to her parents/pastor. All of this coupled with the fact that femininity for women is generally a banal, semi-mandatory, uncomfortable part of one's existence (at least in my experience, but the banal part is probably relatable to most women) as opposed to some rebellious "fuck you" catty drama party in the highly exclusive VIPs only rainbow badge gay club which they so desperately desire to be a part of.

Then, of course, the AAP, which I already discussed a little in another comment. I feel the fetish aspect, while intertwined with the cultural aspect, is much less complicated. You nut to the same thing repeatedly and with increasing intensity (escalation of shock/horror/disgust/novelty of content), you get a paraphilia. Most trans-id females are AAP, and most feminine trans-id females have AHA (autohomoeroticism; fetish for pretending to be a gay man). Their affinity for femininity appears to be tied to the humiliation aspect. They want to be the bratty bottom, saying "fuck you" to mom, pops, and Father by being feminine (and of course they also enjoy being feminine, or they wouldn't go to such lengths to continue to be so), and they also want to play the "feminine role". Yep. Getting fucked by a masculine guy.

As far as why these women feel they are "experiencing attraction to men as a gay man", they don't know how gay men experience attraction. They get ideas from yaoi and believe they're true, which vary, but in general they mean playing either the masculine or feminine role, usually the feminine one, but that also varies. I could get into specifics here but generally the difference is want power == masc, no want power == femme, but they like to switch it up a little sometimes. For example, a feminine-looking trans-id female who wants to be a "power bottom" (and probably only knows what that is from memes and porn) and likes to think of herself as a martyr for this cause: "not all femme guys are weak! we can be strong too ;)" but yes, in a perverted way, because like I said, their ideas come from porn first and foremost. Generally all of these identities are sexual in nature.

I'm not a man, but I think the male version is pretty analogous, just swap the feminine traits/expectations for masculine ones and there it is. I could write out a longer explanation of the male version and other things in more detail, but honestly I could just keep writing about this topic forever once I get started lol. Let me know if there's anything you want me to go into specifics about.

[–]DiveBarDiva 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This was a really great comment! What is yaoi? I have heard that most Straight FTM are obsessed with it. I also think there is a social contagion element to this

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks lol.

What is yaoi?

I am so glad you asked instead of looking it up. It is anime gay male porn which generally targets women. It usually has pedophilic themes, which are legal in Japan ( :c ), and is generally het relationships projected onto gay men. Now, what I mean by that is that it mirrors het relationship gender roles. More specifically, there is an older, aggressive, dominant, masculine male, called the "seme", and a young, feminine, submissive male called the "uke". Can you guess which one is the top and which one is the bottom? 🙄

I also think there is a social contagion element to this

Yes, and the propaganda.