all 100 comments

[–]Rag3 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I noticed a lot of comments were upset at first because they thought this adoption was surrogacy but I noticed a shift in tone when they learned that the children were adopted instead.

I think people focusing on the developmental health of a young baby having access to its mother and breastfeeding is one thing (this applies to any family that adopts a young baby) - to say that gay men cannot be good fathers in infancy is another.

(And yes, I know that some new mothers cannot produce milk and that could possibly be a problem feeding a young baby.)

[–]JulienMayfair 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The issue of breastfeeding is a problem in any infant adoption. A straight couple I know adopted a newborn infant, and the wife couldn't breastfeed the baby, despite being a biological woman, since she hadn't been pregnant.

[–]insta 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Expanding on this, women who gave birth can also have problems with breastfeeding. IIRC breast reduction surgery can really endanger your chances of properly breastfeeding later in life.

[–]jiljol 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

Many of the founding figures of radical feminism made their position quite clear in their writings: male homosexuality is a form of extreme hatred of women. Gynephilic men may be out there brutally torturing, raping and murdering women, but it is in gay men that one can apparrently find the most profound form of misogyny.

“The Christian tradition — based on male anxiety from the Hebrew tradition — takes the fear of the female to even greater extremes. During the Middle Ages celibacy (which is related to rear of the female) produced such strong anxieties that both self-castration and sodomy existed.”

- Leslie B. Tanner

“Men's liberationists always bring up ‘confronting their own feelings about men’ by which they mean homosexuality. Male homosexuality is an extension of the reactionary club (meaning both group and weapon). The growth of gay liberation carries contempt for women to the ultimate: total segregation. The desire of men to ‘explore their homosexuality’ really means encouraging the possibility of homosexuality as a reaction against feminist demands. This is the reason the movement for “gay rights” received much more support only after women's liberation became a mass movement.”

- Carol Hanisch

Interesting to note is that this cartoony characterization of gay men as these woman-hating monsters is shared by people from across the political spectrum: far-right groups will call us mentally-ill degenerates who should be "fixed" of our "aversion", woke leftists will call us transphobic bigots who should be "fixed" of our "aversion", second-wave feminists will call us misogynists who should be "fixed" of our "aversion", etc. The nicest of radfems will tell you that sure, homophobia exists, but it is merely an unintended consequence of women's oppression - a simple footnote. Who can forget that time radfem Meghan Murphy from Feminist Current descended from her ivory tower just days after Ireland legalized same-sex marriage to inform us mortals that no, she is not going to "celebrate" this event and that people should instead be fighting for women's rights (ignoring the effect this law has on lesbian women) and ultimately the total abolition of marriage. How about that time failed-actress-turned-activist libfem Rose McGowan claimed that not only are gay men misogynistic, we are in fact MORE misogynistic than men of other sexual orientations.

My advice is to judge a person's character based on who they are as individuals and not on their group affiliation.

[–]insta 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

male homosexuality is a form of extreme hatred of women.

When you're so self absorbed you think someone else's sexuality is all about you.

[–]szalinskikidproblematic androphile 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Wow, your comment kinda opened my eyes and gave me context to a problem I always felt existed in GC/radfem spaces, but I couldn't put my finger on it or saw it spelt out anywhere. I enjoyed GC twitter for a while because it felt like 'winning' for once, if that makes sense. I liked hearing what other gay men who were not enthralled by the gender cult had to say, which is rare enough these days. But after a while, I now noticed the sort of formulaic and affirming behavior which I only ever saw with male TRAs before. The uncompromising attitude when it comes to feminist topics and viewpoints, even though they aren't favorable of gay men or simply just extreme, hypothetical stances. Then there's the self-mortification over things like patriarchy, crime statistics and privilege; which then is indirectly followed by them declaring themselves exemptions from those 'sins'. Which results in them feeling free to attack and ridicule anyone from "the other side". Just like TRAs. I fear self-declared radfem gay men have just as much internalized homophobia as gay male TRAs.

I am gender critical through and through, but I'm distancing myself from radical feminism, or feminism as a whole. Because I'm a man, and no matter which "side" I'm looking at, man + feminist just never feels authentic or healthy. And this isn't meant as an affront to feminism as a whole. Men simply are not part of it and we have our own set of problems and solutions that might clash with feminist ideas, and it's not a question of "right" or "wrong" if I disagree, or agree with feminist stances.

[–]DimDroog 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I am gender critical, and distanced myself from radical feminism too.

I do agree with some of what they say, regarding porn, sex "work", etc, but not everything.

I loath any group telling me what to think and feel.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I wasn't ever really associated with radical feminism, but I certainly curtailed my participation in their conversations after that one time I was accused (because how dare men exist) of being a man for correcting someone's false statements about women's nervous systems and sex. It was quite the episode—downvoted and drummed out of a group for stating facts which apparently should never be stated.

Truly bizarre. And ironic given many of their other stances. They were totally okay with lying to women about their own bodies, in order to enforce their dogma.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Truly bizarre. And ironic given many of their other stances. They were totally okay with lying to women about their own bodies, in order to enforce their dogma.

I have noticed that many radical feminists employ a "pick-and-chose" mentality when it comes to scientific evidence, similar to religious apologists. For example, radfems are happy to cite science when observing that there are only 2 sexes in humans, but reject science regarding the genetic basis for sexual orientation and instead claim that "being gay is a choice!" It's hypocritical.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't get it. So close to making sense, and then veering off down a rabbit hole they clearly don't want to see coming. Where have we applied that statement before, many, many times? Hmm, let me think a minute.

When power and control are more important than credibility, something is very wrong.

They were sure good at shrieking at people, though. I'll give them that. And I started to understand better the baffled men who think all feminists are like that. Yelling things doesn't make them true. Beating heretics with (technological) sticks doesn't make them wrong.

[–]DimDroog 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, I don't like that.

I don't like being forced to adhere to strict rules on what to think and believe in.

I was raised in a cult (Soka Gakkai International) and was told to think only in certain ways.

The heck with ANY group telling people how to think

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I was raised in a cult (Soka Gakkai International) and was told to think only in certain ways.

If you don't kind me asking, What was that like? How did you come to be in it?

This is only the second time on this forum I heard of a Buddhist cult organization in North America.

[–]DimDroog 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hello.

I will answer this more in depth later, but here is a link for you to read if you wish https://culteducation.com/oldserverbackups/www/web/group/940-soka-gakkai/7646-cult-or-buddhism.html

1.What was it like?

Meetings every night, being urged to donate your time and money to "build your fortune and change your karma".

Being told you cannot ever think or say anything bad about other members, it was slanderous,and created bad karma.

2.How did you come to be in it?

My folks were approached one evening while sitting outside.

This was in 1970 ,I was five.

My father immediately saw through it, that is was a cult, my mother is still a fanatic.

The way it has touched every aspect of my life cannot be understated.

It's been over a year since I told them to fuck off, and I still cannot believe I didn't see through them before.

BTW,, in the 70s, they used to tell LGB members to "chant themselves straight".

Bastards.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I will answer this more in depth later, but here is a link for you to read if you wish https://culteducation.com/oldserverbackups/www/web/group/940-soka-gakkai/7646-cult-or-buddhism.html

Thank you.

Meetings every night, being urged to donate your time and money to "build your fortune and change your karma".

Every night? That's very demanding and unreasonable. Also sounds a lot like Scientology in the heavy investment it demands of followers.

Being told you cannot ever think or say anything bad about other members, it was slanderous,and created bad karma.

Probably to build an illusion of harmony and the cover of silence to cover up wrongdoings.

My folks were approached one evening while sitting outside.

This was in 1970 ,I was five.

My father immediately saw through it, that is was a cult, my mother is still a fanatic.

The way it has touched every aspect of my life cannot be understated.

Some people are more susceptible to indoctrination like this due their personality. I'm sorry to hear about your mother, and how much it has affected your life.

It's been over a year since I told them to fuck off, and I still cannot believe I didn't see through them before.

BTW,, in the 70s, they used to tell LGB members to "chant themselves straight".

Bastards.

It sounds horrible; Glad to hear you're out of it and told them off.

[–]DimDroog 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you so much.

If anyone ever invites you to a Buddhist meeting, that's probably Soka Gakkai.

Run!

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I am gender critical through and through, but I'm distancing myself from radical feminism, or feminism as a whole.

Do you mind if I ask, do you define "gender critical" (GC) to be something distinct from radical feminism? I ask because I am against radical feminism, and also very strongly against gender identity ideology, but I never describe myself as gender critical because I have heard many (but not all!) radical feminists say "GC is just another term for radical feminist" and I do not want to suggest that I support radical feminism.

[–]szalinskikidproblematic androphile 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not an expert but even though "being critical of gender" is definitely part of radical feminism, there's more to it than just that and both aren't synonymous in my opinion. Rad fems believe women are a dominated/oppressed group in a patriarchal society; they claim women's bodies are being objectified by the existence of porn/sex work and surrogacy which need to be abolished; and like jiljol showcased, they have some very radical theses on societal structures and even people's sexualities. And of course since it is feminism, they logically focus on the women part of a problem (which differentiates them from liberal feminism which is kinda about... everything and everyone, and it doesn't make sense). Just to name a few things that are RF, but not GC.

Being critical of gender (roles or identities) first and foremost is not a movement, it's just a belief (as the Maya Forstater case made clear). The fact that we have to band together like that in order to make ourselves heard has kinda turned it into a movement I guess. Radfems share those beliefs but what I can also witness is that their personal spin on this differs from non-radfem GCs. For example, I hear a lot of radfems describing gender ideology as a male problem first and foremost and I don't even fully disagree here. But then they say things like "transmen/trans identified females) are just victims of the patriarchy, and while transwomen are oppressing perverts, transmen are misguided women whose trans identity is a response to the trauma of living in the patriarchy". I, a gay gender-critical non-radfem man, certainly don't feel like the abuse-hurling, yaoi-obsessed, gay-sauna-invading women are victims of the world I am supposed to be responsible for according to radfems. To put it simply.

I think that sums it up. There's overlap between radical feminism and gender criticism but that's it. Just because I don't believe that long hair and a dress makes you a woman, that doesn't mean I think that male homosexuality is a form of misogyny.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not an expert but even though "being critical of gender" is definitely part of radical feminism, there's more to it than just that

Yup, totally. These differences I am familiar with.

But then they say things like "transmen/trans identified females) are just victims of the patriarchy, and while transwomen are oppressing perverts, transmen are misguided women whose trans identity is a response to the trauma of living in the patriarchy". I, a gay gender-critical non-radfem man, certainly don't feel like the abuse-hurling, yaoi-obsessed, gay-sauna-invading women are victims of the world I am supposed to be responsible for according to radfems. To put it simply.

Totally agree.

Interesting to hear your take on GC. Thanks for responding. It sounds like we have very similar views. But I sometimes hear radfems say, "GC means you are basically a radical feminist" so that's why I don't call myself GC, lol. I am not on board with all the other radfem ideas, e.g. those you described.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you mind if I ask, do you define "gender critical" (GC) to be something distinct from radical feminism?

Another user here, but will answer too. It used to be said in the old debate sub on reddit that all radfems are GC but not all GC people are radfems. I don't consider myself a radical feminist, the main reason I call myself GC is that is what people tend to call those with my position, i.e I don't believe in universal innate gender identities, I don't believe sex can be changed, I don't think it's transphobic to be truthful about males being male and females being female, nor do I see it as transphobic of monosexuals to not be attracted to trans people of the wrong biological sex.

I found GC through an online search when lesbians started getting called transphobic for not being into males, I wanted to know if there were others who saw how homophobic this was. I think it’s quite common for GC lesbians to have found GC like me, simply being concerned about the new woke homophobia, and not through being involved in radical feminism. My impression is that most GC people who are radfems these days found out about GC first and then become radfems as I know many who almost didn’t know what radical feminism was about before they found GC. I also think there are conservatives who find GC and call themselves GC, but I think as GC stands for Gender Critical then being pro gender in a conservative way is not really being gender critical. Anyway I think if someone made a post in a GC space about Julie Bindel propagating political lesbianism then Julia Bindel would be criticized for that, as denying sexual orientation is not a GC position. I have never posted on ovarit though or in any of the GC subs except for the debating ones, as I don’t believe everything GC says, I have my own views.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yup, no problem, and I should have specified, I'm curious to hear answers on this question from a variety of people, so thanks for sharing.

My views are similar to yours but I tend to not identify myself as GC and don't plan on doing so, even though my views are "gender critical" in the literal sense. I tend to think of this set of views as closer to those of the general population.

I think it’s quite common for GC lesbians to have found GC like me, simply being concerned about the new woke homophobia, and not through being involved in radical feminism.

I hope so. I have only met one person IRL, ever, who is a radfem sympathizer; I've never met a lesbian (actually homosexual, not "political lesbian") radfem IRL.

I also think there are conservatives who find GC and call themselves GC, but I think as GC stands for Gender Critical then being pro gender in a conservative way is not really being gender critical.

Agreed.

Anyway I think if someone made a post in a GC space about Julie Bindel propagating political lesbianism then Julia Bindel would be criticized for that, as denying sexual orientation is not a GC position.

Perhaps it is not a GC position as you have defined GC, but it is a radfem position, and often times the line between "GC" and "radfem" gets blurred in GC spaces. I have seen several threads on this sub, months ago, get swarmed with people from the GC sub/Ovarit getting all mad at people here for suggesting that radical feminists are often homophobic. I haven't seen that quite as much recently, though, so that's good.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My views are similar to yours but I tend to not identify myself as GC and don't plan on doing so, even though my views are "gender critical" in the literal sense.

Because of my views I would be seen as GC even if I didn’t consider myself one, and in the literal sense I am gender critical. I have participated in the debate subs so it would be clunky denying being gender critical despite my views in the debate roughly aligning with the GC side. It’s like how those who think trans people should be called the opposite sex have to put up with being seen as part of the QT side regardless if they are truscum or tucute.

I tend to think of this set of views as closer to those of the general population.

Yeah, I think many of those who are called TERF find out what terf is by googling what they have been called, because as you say, the view that is seen as “terfy” is just the common view of the general population. A lesbian doesn’t need to be a radical feminist for not being attracted to males but she will get called the acronym of trans exclusionary radical feminist because of it anyway.

I've never met a lesbian (actually homosexual, not "political lesbian") radfem IRL.

I’ve never met a lesbian radfem irl, but I’ve met those who would be considered terfs by others for their homosexuality, it’s an ironic situation when homosexual women are seen as following the movement supporting political lesbianism for meeting the actual definition of lesbian.

Perhaps it is not a GC position as you have defined GC, but it is a radfem position, and often times the line between "GC" and "radfem" gets blurred in GC spaces.

I think old school radfems were the first ones on the left who were vocal about males not being women. Then when males started insisting they were literally women they started calling people on the left TERF for not agreeing despite that most of these people never had been part of radical feminism. Those who were called TERF didn’t agree with the often inaccurate TERF label and decided to call their position gender critical. I remember seeing in the old GC sub on reddit people scolding GC for not following old school radical feminists ideas as a bible and getting downvoted and told GC is their own movement, i.e GC had no moral obligation to support some idea just because some homophobic/genderist oldschool radfem supported it. But as most old school radfems are gender critical in some way lines get blurred as you say, and radical feminism has received an upswing due to GC as some GC people do become radfems. People being banned from reddit and other platforms for not believing in sex change probably increases the radicalization.

I have seen several threads on this sub, months ago, get swarmed with people from the GC sub/Ovarit getting all mad at people here for suggesting that radical feminists are often homophobic

My guess is that the people swarming these threads are radfems themselves so they swarm these threads not because they are critical of gender but because they feel targeted as radfems.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it’s an ironic situation when homosexual women are seen as following the movement supporting political lesbianism for meeting the actual definition of lesbian.

Exactly this.

But as most old school radfems are gender critical in some way lines get blurred as you say, and radical feminism has received an upswing due to GC as some GC people do become radfems. People being banned from reddit and other platforms for not believing in sex change probably increases the radicalization.

Yup, that makes a lot of sense. Another ironic result of Reddit's (and other platforms') decision to ban people who hold different beliefs than them, rather than retain them on the platform and moderate them.

My guess is that the people swarming these threads are radfems themselves so they swarm these threads not because they are critical of gender but because they feel targeted as radfems.

That is my guess as well. Though I am skeptical as to the threat that a small 2k sub poses as opposed to the entire TQ+ movement...

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

"Men's liberationists always bring up ‘confronting their own feelings about men’ by which they mean homosexuality. Male homosexuality is an extension of the reactionary club (meaning both group and weapon). The growth of gay liberation carries contempt for women to the ultimate: total segregation."

Wowwww. Radical feminists really find the existence of male homosexuality that threatening? This makes me so angry, it's such a pseudoscientific stance. Just like this blatantly science-denying, bigoted article posted by "Lesbian and Gay News" featuring another radical feminist, Julie Bindel.

Interesting to note is that this cartoony characterization of gay men as these woman-hating monsters is shared by people from across the political spectrum: far-right groups will call us mentally-ill degenerates who should be "fixed" of our "aversion", woke leftists will call us transphobic bigots who should be "fixed" of our "aversion", second-wave feminists will call us misogynists who should be "fixed" of our "aversion", etc. The nicest of radfems will tell you that sure, homophobia exists, but it is merely an unintended consequence of women's oppression - a simple footnote.

Yep, radfems' framing of the issue of homophobia is always in reference to their ideology, and the primacy of their own beliefs.

Who can forget that time radfem Meghan Murphy from Feminist Current descended from her ivory tower just days after Ireland legalized same-sex marriage to inform us mortals that no, she is not going to "celebrate" this event and that people should instead be fighting for women's rights (ignoring the effect this law has on lesbian women)

I'm a little young, so I have never heard of this event, but that's fascinating. Do you have a link to an article? I tried Googling it but no luck. Also, radfems don't actually give a shit about homosexual women (lesbian women); when they say "lesbian," they really just mean political lesbians, which is their homosexuality-erasing concept in which straight women can "choose" to be lesbian.

My advice is to judge a person's character based on who they are as individuals and not on their group affiliation.

Couldn't agree more.

Thanks for your thoughtful breakdown. As I mentioned in my own comment, I have felt uneasy for a while about radical feminism's homophobia, and in the past I have seen some users on this sub downplay it. I feel better knowing that other people here are also keeping an eye out for it.

[–]szalinskikidproblematic androphile 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just like this blatantly science-denying, bigoted article posted by "Lesbian and Gay News"

"Chosen lesbianism"... sounds very similar to "transbians".

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yup. Isn't it crazy how extremists on seemingly opposite sides sound so similar? Lol.

[–]jiljol 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The "think" piece is still up, but here is an archive page: https://archive.is/mbPPa

Enjoy (not!).

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you so much for sharing. Ugh.

It is women — 51 per cent of the world’s population — who remain the largest group of oppressed humans on this planet

"Me! Me, it's all about me!" Women are oppressed, yes, but why the hell can't other minority groups-- be it sexual orientation minorities, racial minorities, or whoever-- take a moment to celebrate their victories? Literally right after gay marriage was legalized. This take is just plain narcissistic... at best, it is blind and thoughtless.

[–]JulienMayfair 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

People seem to love to hate Pete Buttigieg for some reason. I saw far less criticism of Lance Black and Tom Daley, who had a child via surrogacy. Tom has over a million Youtube followers and lots of female fans and supporters. But Tom and Lance have carefully managed how their son appears in their videos. Maybe that was smart of them. I don't think they showed many infant photos, and they try to hide his face.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Woke gays hate him so much because of his political position. Far leftie gays are another level of idiocy.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He is just a differently tokenized version of Hillary Clinton. The left has every reason to hate him but Al'Queerida hates him for being a gay male.

[–]SickOfThisShit 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didnt see a lot of comments about surrogacy. Most of them were about 'why is the picture in a hospital bed?'. Not sure if those people were GC or not, seems like a dumb question, it's a cute photo they aren't pretendong they gave birth. And as for all the covid stuff this is likely in the maternity ward, I highly doubt they are housing sick patients there.

Anyway for people saying kids should have a mother, I would say ideally all kids would have good male and female roll models in their lives. But having a mother doesn't mean having a good parent. Lots of mothers are terrible and I would bet most gay parents are better than a lot of straight parents. For the specific reason that any gay couple having kids, whether surrogacy or adoption they have planned and prepared to have kids. Lots of straight couples have accidental pregnancies or have kids cause it's the thing to do. It's real easy to have a kid of you are straight, you don't need money, you don't have to pass any reviews to be approved to have children.

There is something to say about kids having trouble growing up without their biological parents. Lots of Adopted kids struggle with that. I imagine kids of surrogacy(assuming the bio mom isn't someone close to the couple) have similar issues and struggles with not knowing one of their bio parents. Don't know if that's true though.

The point of women being able to sell their bodies and the potential damage and exploitation there is a conversation worth having I think, but as someone else pointed out. The vast majority of surrogacy is for straight couples, not gay ones.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But having a mother doesn't mean having a good parent. Lots of mothers are terrible and I would bet most gay parents are better than a lot of straight parents.

Completely agree. A vocal minority of women seem to insist on anointing all mothers with this halo effect and I think it's just another form of benevolent sexism.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am 100% against surrogacy and I do not support it being legal anywhere, in any context, whatsoever. But I also believe that same sex couples who are married or civilly partnered should be allowed to adopt a child. Whether you think Pete Buttigieg is doing a good job or not should not influence how you feel about him and his husband adopting a child. And yes, two men can raise a child together. If they had the child through surrogacy, then yes, I would be angry about it, like I was with Tom Daley, Neil Patrick Harris and especially the elderly Elton John. But that is not the same thing as adopting a child who was rejected by both his biological parents.

You can argue that homophobia was a factor in the public backlash from a bunch of plonkers on Twitter - of course, the majority of people on Twitter are plonkers anyway. But misandry could also be a factor in this. Now I will say this: a child does benefit from being with his birth mother for the first six months of his life. This isn’t because the birth mother is female, but this is simply because the baby was in the mother's womb for nine months and is adapting to being outside of her womb, and the birth mother is the person the child is the most familiar with. But if the birth mother doesn’t want the child and wants to give him away immediately, then it doesn’t make a difference if two men, two women, or a man and a woman take the child. The child has never been in the bodies of two lesbians who adopt him, so why would he be better off if they adopted him than if two gay men adopted him? However, so many people take the importance of the child’s bond with his or her birth mother and interpret it to mean that the father is not important. To a point where there are idiots who call it "babysitting" when a father is looking after his own child, but that’s another topic for another day.

Yes, the father cannot breastfeed his child, but he can still do everything else for his child and even provide alternatives to the mother's breastmilk, like formula. He can still change nappies, blow noses, change clothes, wash the baby, cuddle the baby and make sure that the baby doesn’t get killed. The mother may have had that maternal instinct from birth, and that is only because she had the baby inside of her for nine whole months, so the instinct has already been fully developed. The father's paternal instinct can also develop as he bonds with the child to point where it’s complete and he’s just as capable of looking after his kid as the mother is. Which is why I recommend that new fathers spend as much of their freetime as possible with their newborns to speed up the development of their paternal instincts. In fact, many fathers feel their pregnant wives' bellies as often as they can so that development starts early. But so many people do not see that, and think that the father is only there for financial support. Which is dumb, because obviously if the father is only good for financial purposes, how come children raised by single parents are more likely to drop out of secondary school or go to prison? There are a lot of good single mothers out there, who raise their children exceptionally well, but those single mothers had help raising their children from their friends, their relatives and members of their communities. And just like that, successful single fathers had help as well.

To end this rant, I will outline the best outcome for a child who’s birth mother does not want him and wants to give him away as soon as the umbilical cord has been cut: the father raises the child. He’s the biological father, so his sperm helped to create that child, he is 50% of that child’s DNA. Before any adoption gets approved, the father should be tracked down, and only if he doesn’t want the child or if he’s not in a position to raise the child should the child be given up for adoption. Even if the father is single has has never changed a nappy in his life, the child is still better off being raised by him than anybody else. He can always get help from his parents, friends, relatives or even the community. And I say this as someone who wants to ban single individuals from adopting children or accessing IVF threatments. Now, obviously the father should be encouraged to move himself and his child in with his parents or anybody who offers a bedroom for a few months, or have somebody he trusts come live with him for a few months, so he’d be able to take more time off work to bond with his child. But it’s better for the child to be raised by his father than for the child to be adopted.

[–]JulienMayfair 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have friends who are a heterosexual married couple, really great people, and they adopted a baby as an infant after all efforts to have their own child failed. The story they were told was that the biological mother got pregnant as the result of hooking up with a guy one time at a party whose name she didn't know and who she never saw again.

My friends are both from high-achieving, highly-educated families. The kid is one of the happiest kids I've ever seen and is growing up in a very enriched environment, learning foreign languages before he's even started school and learning musical instruments from his extremely talented father.

The place this kid was born is a run-down rural part of the state we live in where poverty is rampant, education is shitty, and prospects are poor. I think he totally hit the jackpot being adopted by my friends, and I think your idea that somehow the kid will always be better off with his biological father, even living in that kind of environment, is on the hopelessly optimistic side. I don't think this kid would be better off with a single father. I think he's much better off with people with the resources to help him achieve his full potential. Maybe it's different in Ireland, but the U.S. is extremely divided by wealth and social inequality. This kid will have every advantage over what he would have had where he was born.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Those are good points. Your friends are good parents and I’m sure their son will go on to live a very successful life. But I still think that if the biological father wants to step up and raise the child after the mother rejects the child and no adoption papers have been signed, then he should have the right to raise that child. We let single mothers keep their children regardless of how they raise their children, and we know it’s wrong to force them to give the children up, so I still believe that the biological father should be considered over any potential adoptive parent in scenarios where the mother doesn’t want the child. If the father doesn’t want the child either, then adoption is 100% the way to go, and once those papers have been signed, there should be no going back, the adoptive parents are the legal parents of the child.

[–]censorshipment 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (45 children)

Or "misandry". I'm a staunch radfem lesbian and believe only women should raise children in a matriachy... although I know women can be wicked, like the white lesbian couple who murdered their (6, iirc) adopted nonwhite children. They used their undernourished adopted black son as a prop during BLM protests and had him hugging a white cop. Sickening!

So what may seem like homophobia may be another form of bigotry (in the eyes of men or white people).

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So with straight couples do you believe fathers shouldn't be involved with raising their children?

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Of course I believe that. I don't believe children should even live in households with men. So children should be raised by "a village" of women, like female elephants help mothers with their babies... that's what women should do. Back in the 70s, radfems did that... but they didn't want mothers bringing their sons into the communities. That's "extreme" separatism which I support... boys don't belong in female communities, but in the integrated world, it's fine for moms to raise their sons with other women. I personally try to do this when I date moms... get rid of their children's fathers and raise the kids with my girlfriends. 😄

So basically, when a child is born... the fathers should go live elsewhere, and the moms should have a female support system to help raise their babies. I HATE the concept of a "nuclear family" involving men.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don’t believe children should even live in households with men

I strongly disagree with this. Men are not a danger to children just because they are men. There are some men who are a danger to children, but there are some women who are a danger to children as well. I support lesbian couples raising children, and I also support single mothers who are widows, or who have been abandoned by their kids' fathers, but the idea that men should not be around children is absurd.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've known a number of men who were better parents to their kids than the mothers were. (And each of these men had a strong nurturing instinct which one might call a maternal instinct if it were embodied by a woman.)

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Exactly. Men can be excellent fathers, and the positive impact they have on their children’s lives can never be underestimated.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I credit the three men I've been closest to in this lifetime with offering the vast majority of the healthy nurturing and support I received growing up and into early adulthood. Wouldn't trade them for the world.

[–]insta 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Then why are single parent household's kids such a statistical disaster?

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's funny how most of the people who glorify single-parenthood aren't single parents themselves.

It's almost like being a single parent is a very hard thing and most of the people who end up in this situation don't do so by choice, but by necessity.

Most of the single parents I have contact with have to deal with a crushing dilema in their daily lives: either to dedicate most of their energy to work, securing some economic stability for their children, or dedicate most of their time to the kid and being led to a potentially economical tight spot.

There's no way around it: a single person cannot raplace two.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

I do think newborns are much better off with female parents and men raising very young children feels a bit unnatural. Might be because of coming from very mommy-centric culture but that pic just feel weird for me. But it's good they didn't use a woman womb to get kids

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I do think newborns are much better off with female parents and men raising very young children feels a bit unnatural.

This is kind of counterintuitive to the message that fathers should be involved with the lives of their children, isn't it?

Basic child rearing abilities should be a basic skill for any father worth their salt.

It's hypocritical to campaign for gender equality without upholding this principle.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Saying mn need to be involved and do the work for their kids, isn't the same thing as a kids with only males parents and no female ones though, at all.Again, never said two men could't raise a kid, I said isn't as natural and seeing a newborn with two males and no female around, kind give off unnatural initial perception.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I said isn't as natural and seeing a newborn with two males and no female around, kind give off unnatural initial perception.

C'mon, you know why this is the case: society dumps most of the child rearing on women, so a male taking such responsability ends up feeling very off for most people.

As society's become more and more equal, these kinds of taboos will have to be addressed.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Isn't just that. Naturally is the one who keep children inside and put them in the world, that's seeing newborn around withot females feels so unnatural. It isn't society that makes female figure so essential and naturally more involved in child rearing. Totally equality can't be have as the sexes aren't totally equal. That doesn't mean males can raise kids fine or shouldn't do equal amount of work raising them, but it isn't just society the reason of fthe naturality of child raising by female, it's simply nature.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Honestly this may be an unpopular opinion here but I think it's an absolute necessity children have both nurturing/instructive male and female adults in their formative years. If you want to have kids as a gay couple I think it's then important to find someone else that can act as that other influence.

Fathers do serve very important roles and if anything I think the over-reliance of female instruction which is common considering how most elementary school teachers and other forms of child care like day care are run by woman isn't really a good thing. Men and women do socialize somewhat differently and you need a balance of that for effective child rearing. Especially for young men they need responsible male adults to provide proper example of what they need to be.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, I myself think hetero family are the most natural and ideal. Homosexuals arent supposed to raise kids. This doesn't mean we can do much better than many het couples, but children do need both examples and is important that at least they (gay parents) can give them somehow

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Or "misandry". I'm a staunch radfem lesbian and believe only women should raise children in a matriachy... although I know women can be wicked, like the white lesbian couple who murdered their (6, iirc) adopted nonwhite children. They used their undernourished adopted black son as a prop during BLM protests and had him hugging a white cop. Sickening!

Funny you say that especially considering lesbians have the highest domestic violence and divorce rates within the LGBT, so even if there was a female-only matriarchal utopia you'd divorce or hit each other still.

Also, single mom households statistically have contributed to a lot of imbalance in society, like criminals, insane TRAs or sinply people with deep rooted issues. Its not a critique that women cannot raise children alone, no, but its a fact that children who grow up without fathers are more likely to be fucked up. Its a pattern you can see in the TRAs too, so many MTFs never had a positive male rolemodel in the lives

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Funny you say that especially considering lesbians have the highest domestic violence and divorce rates within the LGBT,

No they don't. This is a stereotype about lesbian women being violent. Source for your claim?

Here's my source: US CDC National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (2010)

From p. 24/48: There were no statistically significant differences in intimate partner violence experienced (IPV) between the lesbian women and heterosexual women groups, but there were statistically significant differences between the lesbian women and bisexual women, and between the bisexual women and heterosexual women. Elsewhere in the survey it is discussed that much of the violence experienced by the bisexual women was at the hands of men, not women...

There were no statistically significant differences between the prevalence of rape, physical violence, and/or stalking when comparing lesbian women and heterosexual women... [bolded emphasis added]

Lifetime Prevalence of Rape, Physical Violence, and/or Stalking Victimization by an Intimate Partner by Sexual Orientation

  • Physical violence: Lesbian 40.4%, Bisexual 56.9%, Heterosexual 32.3%

  • Rape, physical violence, and/or stalking: Lesbian 43.8%, Bisexual 61.1%, Heterosexual 35.0%

  • With IPV-related impact: Lesbian 33.5%, Bisexual 57.4%, Heterosexual 28.2%

That being said, I don't agree with the comment you were responding to. I am against radical feminism and I don't think children need to be raised in a matriarchy...

edit: *statistically

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wasn't there an old study that had deliberately included lesbians being abused by former male partners as "lesbian domestic violence" to intentionally skew the data? Maybe that's what he's talking about.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Edit: My mistake. I was thrown off by some of the criticisms stating or implying that the Buttigiegs had used a surrogate when in reality they adopted. I will keep my comment up but with that caveat.

My immediate impression is that the reaction is more driven by Pete and Chasten being two men than gay men specifically though I wouldn’t go so far as to say that them being gay plays no role whatsoever in this attitude. I do think many radfems have some issues of homophobia and lesbophobia that they seem blind to in part because they’ve become so hypersensitive to any perceived slight/erasure of women. I am trying to distance myself from being hypersensitive myself. A lot of them have been vocal supporters of gay rights for reasons other than respect for the existence of homosexuality and view gay men as traitors and actual homosexual females as disposable/tools. It’s a weird dynamic.

But no, it does not help anyone when institutions like Pink News promote surrogacy as a gay rights issue, which I absolutely do not think it should be. I do think surrogacy is a particularly touchy and fraught subject that is even more so in the current political climate.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

seems like they hate the scenerio and just want to shift the reason. They're up for adoption, so its best some couple wanted them.

[–]Virginia_Plain 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

i remember when people were comparing him to a rat in the 2020 primaries. He wasn't my choice either, but shit. My friend circle that criticized him was mostly queer/trans/enby people, and a few white gay guys who liked to do the snuffling "seriously....we're the worst" schtick.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

white gay guys who liked to do the snuffling "seriously....we're the worst" schtick.

I hate these guys with all of my soul.

Let me guess: they're the same ones who worship straight men when they do the smallest, most trivial statements on gay rights?

They might even be stupid enough to fall for gay baiting these guys pull from time to time, thirsting for that sweet, sweet clout?

Give me a break...

[–]Virginia_Plain 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nah, they hated straight men too.

I'm not going to pretend things are fine and dandy between gay men and straight men, but I've found a lot of the straight dudes at work to be more open and friendly than many of the alphabet people I hung around with. Your mileage may vary of course.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's interesting to hear.

It looks like your friends have a cult mentality in regards to this whole 'activism' shite. But on the other hand, this could be all for show and they lust over the gay (and straight) men they claim to despise so much. Who knows? I witnessed a fair bit of hypocrisy in the times I used to lurk on these groups.

I've found a lot of the straight dudes at work to be more open and friendly than many of the alphabet people I hung around with. Your mileage may vary of course.

I'm not surprised.

Most people on liberal areas tend to be pretty chill, except the activist types of course.

It appears the less prejudice they experience in their lives the more they need to paint themselves as opressed, which is quite ironic.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pete is the guy people set out in their minds to hate, so they just bend backwards to find anything, even non consequential stuff, to whine about him.

And the thing is: he's isn't even that popular of a politician to attract such vitriol.

His problem is that he's just a perfect example of a centrist: he doesn't push enough on eitheir way, be to the right or to the left.

The radical left larpers hates him for not being enough of a leftist, while the radical rightoids hates him for being a democrat. Eitheir way, he loses.

And the funniest thing of all? Their own pet politicians have been huge disappointments, which failed to enact the radical policies they claimed to support time and time again.

Hell, even Bernie Sanders has been flirting with the identitarian, neoliberal establishment recently. His 'workers first' rhetoric has been successfully demonized by mainstream left and right alike, being branded as socialism and brocialism by them respectively.

If there's some homophobia involved? Yes, absolutely.

The leftist larpers just hide it under the tried and tested assigning of privilege (he's a white gay!), which goes hand in hand with the fall of homossexuality on the recent opression scale.

[–]millicentfawcett 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are we sure they're adopted? AFAIK they've not made an official statement, I think it was CNN that inferred it based on them previously talking about looking into adoption. I hope that's the case because it's better than surrogacy, it does seem fortuitous though that twin newborns, one of each sex became available quite quickly on what I'm told are long waiting lists.

I mostly try to avoid adoption discussion (any not just same sex) these days because I'm adopted and don't think it's always a brilliant fairytale so I have a lot of biased views that usually mean I end up arguing with someone which stirs up a lot of feelings for a while after about things which can't be changed.

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I actually like to watch the show "long lost family " on TLC because it reunites adopted people with their birth parents and vice versa. Really shows you the full range of positive/negative outcomes of adoptions from all perspectives ( adoptees, adopters, and birth parents/mothers )

I feel like adoption & surrogacy are complex issues . Just couldn't help but noticed a lot more people seem riled up about this particular instance and I can't help but feel them being gay men is helping to fuel it.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm glad you posted about this. I have grown increasingly wary over the last few months about GC homophobia that is directed at lesbian women. It does not surprise me to see it directed at gay men as well. I worry about LGB people being seen as "useful allies" at best by radfems.

Lots of calling out for "renting a womb" , even though this was an adoption. Once it's revealed, that its an adoption I'm seeing a lot of comments saying Children need to be with their mothers. More subtle homophobia.

Homophobia with a side of benevolent sexism. That seems to be a common characteristic of radical feminist messages more broadly, as well.

edit: I saw @ripx4nutmeg (someone who works with Graham Linehan on the Glinner Update) tweeting that it was a surrogacy. Disappointed to see the blanket assumptions being made. https://twitter.com/iseult/status/1434204969683587075

[–]TheBitchinAccounting 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gross homophobia aside, there is - rightfully - growing criticism of the ethics of adoption. Such as women being pressured into giving up their babies, and babies/children being outright stolen and sold in 3rd world countries or low income communities in the 1st world.

However, an increasing number of people take it to the extreme and seem to believe that all adoptions are wrong. I see this a lot on TikTok and social media. Usually its an adoptee who has significant trauma from their adoption, believes all other adoptees have similar experiences, and uses their platforms to blast adoption. And of course negativity garners more interest.