all 19 comments

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would say bi men who are into "femininity." In my experience, they also tend to be into twinks.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

The word you are looking for is gynandropmorphophilia (GAMP for short).

I would HIGHLY recommend you watch this video if you want some perspective on AGP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTRhUUge6so Like, for real. Grab some popcorn and let me know what you think of it. (I think you in particular might appreciate some of the references in the video.)

Also, Blaire White actually talked about this openly and described his partner, Joey, as having GAMP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiFPIfN99N0 (I know a lot of people here don't like Blaire but this video is seriously so fascinating, would highly recommend)

There used to be a user, u/GatitoMalo, who hung out on this sub and would debate (the fun kind!) with me about sexuality-related oddities. I could dig up some of those threads if you're interested. They got really long... I'm talking full-screen-length comments.

they seem to mostly be closeted bi men.

Every time this topic used to come up in the sub, there was a debate about whether AGP men are either:

  1. bisexual men with a very, very specific type in men (i.e., feminine-to-the-point-of-passing MtFs), or

  2. heterosexual fetishists who are somehow not actually attracted to men.

Personally, I am in camp #1. I think that men with GAMP are all just bi men with a very specific type. (However, I don't believe that all men with AGP are bisexual. That's a more complicated subject, though...)

I might say they're... bi men with a strong preference (requirement?) for femininity? And because the majority of very feminine people are women, this appears like heterosexuality until they are presented with a very feminine man for the first time?

I agree with this characterization, and I could even see why a person like this might say that they are "attracted to gender and not sex." Of course, it only looks like that to them from their perspective because they are bisexual; the vast majority of the rest of the world (us homosexuals included!) are repulsed by one sex or the other.

[–]HelloMomo[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Clearly they're technically bi. Like, they meet the definition of bisexuality: they're attracted to women and also men. But it seems that these guys, and the sort of guys that you typically think of upon hearing the phrase "bi guys", are two somewhat distinct groups.

My next big question is How feminine is feminine enough for these kind of men? Is it all about presentation? Or is it related to the medically-feminized thing?

I became curious about this today because of a video where Shape Shifter (HSTS detransitioner) talks about how now that he's back on testosterone, he's is going to physically masculinize in the next few months. Someone said that his fiancé is straight, and will leave him when that happens. And while Shape Shifter was outwardly denying this, it was clear that he thought this was plausible enough that talking about it scared him. He was crying thinking about it. Some people were leaving comforting comments like, "don't worry, if he's with you in the first place he's not straight." I wanted to say that too, but I realized I know almost nothing about the kind of men who date HSTS guys. I didn't want to say that and spread false hope if it wasn't true.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

My next big question is How feminine is feminine enough for these kind of men? Is it all about presentation? Or is it related to the medically-feminized thing?

This was my exact question for a long time. I wondered: "Maybe these men are only attracted to transwomen because they love the idea of men being emasculated and humiliated? Maybe this is just an uncommon form of a humiliation kink?" But I no longer think that's the case, because many of these GAMP men (chasers, they are sometimes called) seem attracted to feminine men even in the complete absence of medically-induced physical feminization.

Example 1: Joey in that Blaire White video that I linked. ...I tried to find another example for you, but can't seem to; I could've sworn that one of our GNC gay male users had made a post describing how chasers tried to hit him up on dating apps and insist he must be a transwoman-- despite the fact that he's never done any medical transitioning. He thinks these chaser guys are just bisexual and in denial/have a lot of internalized homophobia. Different thread where he talks about this

I became curious about this today because of a video YouTube where Shape Shifter (HSTS detransitioner) talks about how now that he's back on testosterone, he's is going to physically masculinize in the next few months. Someone said that his fiancé is straight, and will leave him when that happens. And while Shape Shifter was outwardly denying this, it was clear that he thought this was plausible enough that talking about it scared him. He was crying thinking about it. Some people were leaving comforting comments like, "don't worry, if he's with you in the first place he's not straight." I wanted to say that too, but I realized I know almost nothing about the kind of men who date HSTS guys. I didn't want to say that and spread false hope if it wasn't true.

That's a heartbreaking situation, for multiple reasons. I hope he will be okay. I don't know any of these particular people, but I would emphasize the following points:

  • If his fiance were straight then his fiance never would have dated a man.

  • GAMP men can be attracted to feminine-presenting women who haven't undergone medical transition, not just the ones who have. I don't know anything about this guy in particular (I don't even know if he's GAMP per se, or just a typical bi/gay man), but medically detransitioning is not necessarily a dealbreaker for GAMP men as a group, AFAIK.

[–]HelloMomo[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

In places and times that have specific cultural roles for hyper-feminine gay men (for example, the fa'afafine) so they could present themselves with many of the cultural trapping of women, but had no medical transition. Who did those guys date? Are their husbands GAMP-type bi men, or more typical bi or gay men?

One of the things about the whole trans thing that I find oddest is that it really does appear that some people do have a very strong seemingly innate and inborn preference for masculinity or femininity. And it dating, it seems like some people have a very strong preference for masculinity/femininity in others. And I'm just really perplexed by how someone could have such an innate reaction to something that is culturally constructed.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In places and times that have specific cultural roles for hyper-feminine gay men (for example, the fa'afafine) so they could present themselves with many of the cultural trapping of women, but had no medical transition. Who did those guys date? Are their husbands GAMP-type bi men, or more typical bi or gay men?

That's a great question. I haven't read enough of the research literature to know. Do you use Google Scholar much? I suggest looking it up there. I have seen several papers referencing the fa'afafine.

One of the things about the whole trans thing that I find oddest is that it really does appear that some people do have a very strong seemingly innate and inborn preference for masculinity or femininity. And it dating, it seems like some people have a very strong preference for masculinity/femininity in others. And I'm just really perplexed by how someone could have such an innate reaction to something that is culturally constructed.

All right, I've got 2 different theories for ya.

Idea #1

Well... this is speculation, but I could see a way: through personality. There is evidence that genetics have a substantial contribution to personality among individuals. Sex-based cultural stereotypes about men and women attribute personality traits to each sex: e.g. "men are tough and aloof" or "women are warm and friendly." So, let's say Person A has a higher inclination for the personality trait of warmth. Suppose that people who are warm generally seek out other people who are warm. Then Person A ends up liking people who are "warmer" and because culture (some cultures, anyway...) dictate that women are "warm," the people that Person A ends up attracted to are more stereotypically feminine. And so Person A may say that they "are attracted to femininity," and more specifically:

  • If Person A is a lesbian woman, then she ends up attracted to women who are more stereotypically "feminine" in this way. (This is me :D )

  • If Person A is bisexual, then they might say "I am attracted to femininity regardless of sex" and date feminine men/women.

  • If Person A is a gay man, then he might have a preference for feminine gay men.

You could imagine how this might play out across a variety of personality traits and stereotypes. Again, just my idle speculation. It's a good question.

Idea #2

If sex stereotypes are absolute bullshit and have 0 basis in objective reality, then we would still see variation among people in regards to which stereotypes they are more attracted to-- purely by random chance. In this case, when we see someone who "is attracted only to femininity" or "is attracted to masculine women and feminine men" or whatever combination, it's just statistical noise. (I don't know that this is the best answer but it is one possible answer.)

Does that make sense? My brain is a little fried right now, but it's a good question and I wanted to take a stab at it.

[–]HelloMomo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, there are personality traits that are considered feminine or masculine. But (at least in my experience) when people are talking about whether a person is generally feminine or masculine, aesthetics are weighted much more heavily than personality. So I'm a little skeptical of Idea #1.

But when I brought that up, I was kinda going off on a tangent. Preferences of masculinity/femininity in other was kinda secondary; I was moreso talking about preferences for masculinity/femininity in oneself. I personally experience both femininity and masculinity as largely random grab-bags of traits, I'm very pick-and-choose with both. For example: I like both sewing and woodworking. I think I'm interested in the both for the same reason: an interest in making stuff. I see these two interests as alike. But one's coded as masculine and one as feminine, and I see that as very arbitrary. I'm then perplexed by people who have an interest in wholesale masculinity or femininity. Like... do your own innate tastes really line up so closely with this random prepackaged collection? But to hear some butch women and very feminine gay men talk about their childhoods, it really looks like for some people, the answer is yes.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm then perplexed by people who have an interest in wholesale masculinity or femininity. Like... do your own innate tastes really line up so closely with this random prepackaged collection? But to hear some butch women and very feminine gay men talk about their childhoods, it really looks like for some people, the answer is yes.

That's a great question. I think there are people who are "all masculine" or "all feminine" because statistically speaking, it's incredibly likely that someone will, by chance alone, happen to like all the activities in a given list of activities. And then there are also people who probably feel pressure to seem "masculine" or "feminine" and adhere to those stereotypes out of some combination of pressure and beliefs about what a "normal" man/woman, or a "normal" gay man/woman, should do or be. (I've met people who identified as LGB who insisted that they were super gender non-conforming... but didn't seem to actually much enjoy the GNC activities they described liking. Some of them seemed to believe that a "real" gay person should be GNC, which is dumb.)

[–]HelloMomo[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

there are also people who probably feel pressure to seem "masculine" or "feminine" and adhere to those stereotypes out of some combination of pressure and beliefs about what a "normal" man/woman, or a "normal" gay man/woman,

People who make themselves into a caricature of gay stereotypes right after coming out is a thing.

But I feel like that's very different than the 6-year-old tomboys and femboys who will eventually grow up to be gay but don't yet know it. I've heard stories of people who's gender non-conformity preceded their first crush, so they certainly weren't trying to fit any stereotypes of homosexuality.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People who make themselves into a caricature of gay stereotypes right after coming out is a thing.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say.

I've heard stories of people who's gender non-conformity preceded their first crush, so they certainly weren't trying to fit any stereotypes of homosexuality.

Yeah, mine did, or at least the first crush I had that I was aware of. I wouldn't say I adhere to every single masculine stereotype, but I do to a lot of them, I guess. Clothing style and hobbies especially. But then, I've had a couple people on here tell me that I seem more "feminine" in personality so maybe I'm less GNC than I think I am, lol.

[–]aHobbitsTale 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are their husbands GAMP-type bi men, or more typical bi or gay men?

It's an outstanding question. Fa'afafine are not permitted to marry.

some people do have a very strong seemingly innate and inborn preference for masculinity or femininity.

Which really fouls up the traditional concept of _sex_ual orientation. Male/female; masc/femme. The latter is based on?

And I'm just really perplexed by how someone could have such an innate reaction to something that is culturally constructed.

Erotic learning. Some people are obviously capable of it, but we don't know how many, or why. The latex fetishist can't be born with an idea, buried in the back of their mind, about another person wearing latex clothing. They have to learn it.

[–]Aurelius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I watched that GAMP video with Blair White and I thought the way they described their sense of humor was great! Blair said that in their house they joke about Blair being a man and Joey being gay all the time and they just laugh about it. I love how chill they are together!

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah honestly I agree. I know it all sounds a little bit crazy, but... if they're happy together, then why not laugh about it? Life's weird.

I appreciate them sharing their story. It's such a taboo subject and having faces and stories to put to the phenomenon helps humanize discussion about it, I think.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t know but when I first came out there were two massive body builders who were regulars at the only gay club in town and they always had obvious but quite glamorous looking transwomen in tow.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you experienced your very first example of same-sex attraction at 30

Ngl, that sounds exceedingly Late Bloomer(but not in the coming out sense), to the point of very low level male attraction(0.0x Kinsey?)- until apparently superficial gynandromorphs in the form of medically-transed males finally came into significant numbers to unlock their latent hybridized attractions?..

I'm not clear on what people actually mean when they say feminine or masculine. Do you mean behavior/dress or physical traits? And if you do mean physical traits then do you also believe that HRT and SRS give people genuine primary and secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex in that people with the relevant sexual orientation can be attracted to them?

And following that logic, do you think it possible for a trans person to eventually turn enough of their features convincingly into the opposite sex with enough of these processes? Enough for a Straight or Gay person to become attracted to them? Or are these constructed features(moobs/vaginoplasty, phallo/meta) that never truly match their underlying body structure(bones, body proportions) only ever going to be good enough to satisfy Bisexual beauty standards?

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The word you're looking for is Gynandromorphophilic (GAMP) men. It's been studied in a limited amount:

Gynandromorphophilia (GAMP) is attraction to gynandromorphs (GAMs), who are natal males with both breasts and a penis, colloquially known as “she-males.” Men with GAMP (n = 314) and heterosexual men not attracted to GAMs (n = 211) completed an Internet survey regarding their sexual attraction patterns, relationship history, and potential correlates of GAMP. Men with GAMP reported much higher attraction to natal women than to men, although they also reported slightly higher levels of bisexual feelings compared with controls. Men with GAMP were equally attracted to natal women and GAMs, on average. Thus, GAMP is best considered an unusual form of heterosexuality rather than a separate sexual orientation. Indeed, men with GAMP scored much higher than controls on a measure of autogynephilia, or sexual arousal by the idea or fantasy of being a woman, which is also considered a variant of heterosexual attraction.

(source)

Not saying I agree with the conclusion necessarily because this is based on an Internet survey and I think there is a lot of social pressure for such men to see themselves as and be seen as heterosexual. And most notably the fact that being GAMP is connected with having autogynephilia certainly creates a vested interest. Not surprising because they're the ones creating and consuming trans porn and getting inspired by it. I am also perplexed by how this abstract justifies a conclusion of heterosexuality after saying they have "more" attraction to women than to men.

[–]pacmanla 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am also perplexed by how this abstract justifies a conclusion of heterosexuality after saying they have "more" attraction to women than to men.

I've never understood this saying as well. If you're attracted to males who happen to look "feminine" & attracted to biological females as well, you're basically just bisexual. I've never really dwelled on "scaling" attraction, like people saying "well I'm MORE attracted to females, but every once in a a while I like males who are traditionally feminine looking". Doesn't matter, you're still engaging in sexual activity with males, who just may have an effeminate "aura" or presentation to themselves. Basically you're bisexual in my book.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, agreed.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not saying I agree with the conclusion necessarily because this is based on an Internet survey and I think there is a lot of social pressure for such men to see themselves as and be seen as heterosexual.

Agreed. Dug up this post to link to it in a recent post about GAMP and I just wrote something similar over there before I saw your comment.

I am also perplexed by how this abstract justifies a conclusion of heterosexuality after saying they have "more" attraction to women than to men.

Bisexual erasure, I guess. Same old, same old...