Help me out here guys

submitted by Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work from self.LGBDropTheT

I keep reading stuff on Reddit from "LGBTQ+" people that is saying that we're being actively oppressed still. Are they talking about the US when they say that? Can someone let me know who's oppressing me and where I should direct my righteous indignation? I'm just not feeling particularly oppressed so clearly I'm confused.

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[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Hmm... well, I can tell you about ways that LGB people are oppressed. I'm not so sure what specifically "LGBTQ+ oppression" is referring to, because "LGBTQ+" label includes straight people and asexuals and people into kink and a bunch of other random not-oppressed groups.

Ways that LGB people are oppressed in the US...

Legal

  • Supreme Court threat to overturn Obergefell ruling on same-sex marriage - although recently there's been some hope that same-sex marriage may be coded in law! The bill's in the Senate now, they just need 10 Republican senators to agree to it in order to overcome a filibuster. 5 have already agreed. (And Tammy Baldwin thinks that they're almost at that majority.)

  • Legal to discriminate on the basis of same-sex attraction: housing, workplace - Last year there was some talk about the "Equality Act", but the bill hasn't been passed, it only passed the House. So in many states, it's still legal to discriminate against someone on the basis of same-sex attraction. Also, that bill sucked because it would've made "gender identity" a protected characteristic, which makes zero sense because gender identity cannot be objectively defined.

Social

  • All major social media platforms have censored or even outright banned any discussion of LGB rights or pro-LGB views.

  • Being public and open about one's pro-LGB beliefs may result in damage to your career or loss of employment, i.e. financial threat. In the US, see Katie Herzog-- a lesbian journalist who's been "cancelled" for pieces like this one. (In the UK, Allison Bailey is a good example.)

  • A number of lesbian women have reported that they have been outright banned from using dating apps if they state that they have no interest in dating male-born people (i.e., men).

  • There is a lot of pressure on LGB people to transition. I have felt this pressure myself. "You're just a man in a woman's body. We know better than you about who and what you are-- and we think you need to transition. We just want what's best for you." Gaslighting. At a societal level.

  • As a result of ^ that, many LGB people end up with sexual dysfunction and physically harmed bodies. And lots of mental health problems. There are fewer of us as a result of suicide. Those factors complicate our romantic and sexual relationships with other same-sex attracted people.

If that's not oppression... I'd like to know what is.

I might add to this as I think of more.

edit:

I would also add that media representation of LGB people is pretty terrible. For lesbian women, representation almost always occurs in the context of fetishization; lesbian women are not treated as legitimate characters in their own right but as sexual objects or as stereotype-ridden caricatures of actual human beings. For bisexual women, I see the "crazy/insane/dangerous" stereotype used a lot. I ranted about the crappy depiction of lesbian/bisexual characters in the movie "Everything Everywhere All At Once" here-- contains spoilers. I don't know as much about the men's side of things, though.

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for the serious and thoughtful response. Every time I see you I think, 'Surely her username is a misnomer.'

While I don't stay up on current events, I did know about the Obergefell thing. I'm torn about it, honestly, because I get the legal reasoning behind it but I also can't see it as being anything other than politically-motivated. But I did also hear about same-sex marriage being potentially codified into law, so I'm not overly concerned. I think that LGB acceptance is really a non-issue in the US, and it shouldn't be too difficult to get Congress on board.

I actually didn't realize it was legal to discriminate in housing based on sexual orientation, although I probably should have since I know that sexual orientation still isn't considered a protected characteristic.

I'm definitely up on the LGB specific stuff, and it definitely feels like oppression being silenced everywhere. Although, that seems to be getting better as I see more gender-critical stuff hitting MSM.

I agree about media depictions, too. That's always been a huge gripe of mine. It doesn't seem like there are many balanced LGB characters in media. Don't get me wrong; I like seeing representation and everything, but for gay men it's the same as you're talking about with lesbians. I feel like shows are either "gay shows" which don't really reflect my life, or if it's just a gay character they're a walking stereotype.

I'm actually wondering what the TQ+ think - like, for your average asexual person, what does oppression look like?

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for the serious and thoughtful response. Every time I see you I think, 'Surely her username is a misnomer.'

No problem! Lol, that made me smile :) several people have commented something similar to me, and it always surprises me to think how I've changed since I first joined Saidit! I feel a lot more confident about my views and about expressing them. I honestly feel like spending time on Saidit has made me grow tremendously as a person. I actually made this account intending to use it for just one throwaway post. I used to be very indoctrinated into pro-trans beliefs, and Reddit claimed that s/lesbians were all a bunch of evil transphobes-- thus, I felt very reluctant to "comment" on the situation of trans-perpetrated homophobia at all. As opposed to just lurking in fear.

I think that LGB acceptance is really a non-issue in the US, and it shouldn't be too difficult to get Congress on board.

I hope so! That senator certainly seems confident. There's a good chance the vote will happen in the next 2 weeks, so I'll be watching out for that and will make a post if there are any updates.

I actually didn't realize it was legal to discriminate in housing based on sexual orientation, although I probably should have since I know that sexual orientation still isn't considered a protected characteristic.

Yeah, it's funny to me that housing/employment are not talked about at all. I think that there might be a Supreme Court ruling protecting us in employment, but not sure.

but for gay men it's the same as you're talking about with lesbians. I feel like shows are either "gay shows" which don't really reflect my life, or if it's just a gay character they're a walking stereotype.

Sorry to hear it's the same for gay men. Yeah that's exactly how I feel, too, I don't relate to shows like that. There are no normal, typical characters that just happen to be LGB, it seems...

I'm actually wondering what the TQ+ think - like, for your average asexual person, what does oppression look like?

I have heard people say "corrective rape" but that's ridiculous. There has never been a movement of corrected rape directed at asexual individuals AFAIK in the way that rape has been used deliberately to try to "eliminate" same-sex desires.

I will say-- I have a friend who is... if not exactly asexual, very sex-repulsed. Over the years, I have watched him get emotionally abused by his relatives for his lack of interest in dating, and he and I have occasionally bonded over that shared experience (I was pressured by my family to date men-- successfully, I'm sorry to say). But I don't know if I'd call that "systemic oppression." It is interesting, though.

edit: clarity

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Legal to discriminate on the basis of same-sex attraction: housing, workplace - Last year there was some talk about the "Equality Act", but the bill hasn't been passed, it only passed the House. So in many states, it's still legal to discriminate against someone on the basis of same-sex attraction. Also, that bill sucked because it would've made "gender identity" a protected characteristic, which makes zero sense because gender identity cannot be objectively defined.

The Equality Act would codify into law discrimination based on same-sex attraction by pronoun people because it eviscerates the concept of sex by effectively redefining sex as gender identity. It would muddy the law and offer us no protection against those who want to wear our skin and would make it even more difficult to call out what they’re doing and the effect it has on us.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The part describing LGB opression by society if I had no context for that I'd truly believe it's caused by crazy Christians but no it's fucking TRA insanity.

[–]HelloMomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Legal to discriminate on the basis of same-sex attraction: housing, workplace

People mention this from time to time, and I always wonder... if that was illegal, and then homophobic landlords were forced to have gay/bi tenants, would that actually be a good situation for anyone? If the landlord really feels that strongly about it, wouldn't it be better for the tenants to just live somewhere else?

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Bottom line, housing is a need, not a superficial desire. If a baker wants to refuse to bake a cake for a gay couple, that sucks but it's not like it's going to threaten their survival. However, in a context where the vast majority of opportunities to rent are controlled by private landlords, if it's legal in a state to discriminate against same-sex couples then those couples could suffer a real threat to their ability to live independently.

(Personally, I think it's kind of fucked up that renting is a for-profit industry, period, the same way that healthcare in the US is.)

[–]HelloMomo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I guess I just find it hard to imagine that there are many landlords like that. In the field of capitalism, the fact that someone has money and is willing to pay usually outweighs personal moral quandaries. In order for this issue to actually hurt people's ability to live in an area, it would have to be a majority of landlords doing this, not just one or two. Like, if homophobia was more powerful than capitalism? I could respect that after some fashion. But I don't think that's the world we live in. While I know personal incredulity is not a real argument, that just seems unlikely to me.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In order for this issue to actually hurt people's ability to live in an area, it would have to be a majority of landlords doing this, not just one or two.

I think in certain regions, that actually may be the case. If we're averaging over the entire US, probably not; but in certain counties or states, yeah, I do believe it could make a difference. And even if it's rare for an area to have zero landlords willing to take a same-sex couple as renters, having like half or even a quarter or 10% of landlords in an area being like that would still lead to that couple expending more energy than an opposite-sex couple just to find housing.

While I know personal incredulity is not a real argument, that just seems unlikely to me.

Honestly, it would be ideal to have some data on the extent of the issue but I haven't done enough reading about this area to know. If I get a chance, I'll look into it.

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, even though I'm being somewhat facetious, I wouldn't mind some serious replies. :) Like, is there something I should be concerned about pertaining to LGB people in the US? I find that my life is a lot more enjoyable and I'm a lot happier when I don't follow current events, so I'm pretty out of the loop other than the nebulous possibility that the SC may overturn Obergefell.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As an American, I feel that the situation here is rather different than in most of the western world. We have a much stronger far-right element, both because it controls one of our two major political parties, and because religious extremism (notably among those who seek to convert others) is a lot more prevalent here. So while there's certainly widespread support for LGB people... there's also widespread (and often deeply-ingrained) opposition to us. I know that the mainstreaming of the former (and a media awash in rainbows every June) can make it easy to forget about the latter. But there's always something-- such as the current SCOTUS, now gearing up not only to overturn Obergefell, but to make "sodomy laws" a reality once again-- to remind us :(

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. I think it's worth mentioning, too: we not only have that far-right element but we lead in far-left homophobia, too. Those rainbows only provide a guise of LGB support for people who go around saying that we're "fundamentally weird and different" from the rest of the population.

[–]chazzstrong 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nobody in the US is oppressed. At worst, some people are inconvenienced, and maybe victims of bigotry or violence, but not oppressed.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The only thing I can really think of is the random violence on LGB people, but those can come from either traditional homophobes or TQ+ crazies.

There's no real systemic oppression in the western Europe. Eastern Europe is somewhat oppressive. Parts of Africa and Asia are extremely oppressive.

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I find myself wondering if that's what the TQ+ is thinking - that there exists oppression against (ugh) queer people somewhere in the world, and they're conflating that with it happening in the US or Western Europe.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I really doubt it. They tend to be completely oblivious to how things are outside of the west.