Do you believe in "biphobia"?

submitted by usehername from self.LGB_Discussions

Do you think it's a legitimate phenomenon? Every time I've seen a bisexual complain of "biphobia", they're just talking about homophobia but using a ridiculous made-up word which makes it impossible to understand and combat it. Same with "lesbophobia". It's just homophobia, which is different when applied to women, but having a different word for it just makes it difficult to understand and to incorporate into the understanding we already have of the structures that facilitate homophobia.

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[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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    [–]usehername[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I think not all kinds of hate towards certain groups are deserving of a "phobia" label. That's how we got all the silly claims of things like "fatphobia" and "acephobia". If I irrationally hate all blondes, are we going to call it "blondephobia"?

    I think the distinction between what gets to be a phobia and what doesn't is whether it's a real, active phenomenon in society. Can people hate bisexuals for reasons other than homophobia? Yes. Is it a widespread phenomenon like homophobia---which is a deep-seated issue in most people---deserving of its own name? Does it warrant specific study? I don't think so.

    As far as lesbophobia, I think that homophobia just manifests differently when it's directed towards females than when it's directed towards males.

    I read an interesting comment by a lesbian saying she used the word "lesbophobia" to describe the unique thing that lesbians face which she called "a mixture of homophobia and misogyny". But I think that "misogyny" is inherent in homophobia against females the way "misandry" is inherent in homophobia against males. Homophobia seems to me to be an issue of het/bihet people feeling like "ew, you aren't being a man/woman correctly". Some people would interpret the female version of that as misogyny, but to me, the different manifestations of homophobia, which I guess in this language scheme would be described as "gayphobia" and "lesbophobia" are two sides of the same coin.

    [–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    Kinda long but yes, I do believe so. I don't really see it as a problem with having a term for it. Nor lesbophobia. Some specific issues occur to specific groups, and people would like a term for that. It kinda reminds me of "misygnoir," black women want a specific term that involves the struggles specific to them. Nothing wrong with that.

    To me, when I think of biphobia, I think of things like bi erasure, bisexuality "not being a real sexuality," bisexual women are just "sluts" who want attention, bi men gay in denial, etc.

    For example: if a homosexual person was genuinely being discriminatory towards bisexual person for being bisexual, would you call that homophobic? Not really... They're gay themselves, and the issue isn't homosexuality, it's bisexuality of the bi person. Therefore, it's biphobia.

    The same if you were to swap out the labels, and replace it with... A gay man having issues with a lesbian (which I have seen before, and vice versa), he would be lesphobic. You can call him homophobic, but he's not being phobic towards ALL homosexuals/himself, but female homosexuals. Since if there's one other faulty ass idea to exist, it's: impossible for women to dislike dick. It's just not possible. Women are "fluid ones" in sexuality. They have got to like it! Even just a teeny little bit.

    [–]usehername[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    You seem like a nice person so I'll try to be tactful here, but I really don't think that being rejected for dating or sex is tantamount to "discrimination". Discrimination is about being denied basic civil rights such as the right to work, get married, not be discriminated against by businesses, etc. Homosexuals do not discriminate against bisexuals. Some homosexuals do not want to date bisexuals because of a pattern of abuse which stretches back thousands and thousands of years when you look at ancient civilizations and the classes that gays were placed in and their relationship to the bisexuals who had sexual relationships with them. Lesbians don't have as huge of a historical precedent, since historically lesbians have always been at a higher class than gays and sometimes a higher class than heterosexual or feminine bisexual women. So the legacy of violence against them isn't as massive and was perpetrated by heterosexual men or heterosexual women through the proxy of heterosexual men. For them, it's mostly a precedent of being used by bihet women once they got tired of men, and then left by said women when they decided they were ready to "return to heterosexuality".

    A gay man having issues with a lesbian (which I have seen before, and vice versa), he would be lesphobic.

    Some gay guy venting about his status compared to lesbians or other frustrations with lesbians is not discriminatory nor any kind of "phobic". We're allowed to have issues with each other and express them, and it's honestly silly to claim that that means he is now oppressing lesbians. Currently it really isn't even possible for gays to oppress lesbians, nor has it ever in the entire span of written human history been possible.

    Since if there's one other faulty ass idea to exist, it's: impossible for women to dislike dick. It's just not possible. Women are "fluid ones" in sexuality. They have got to like it! Even just a teeny little bit.

    So when the reverse happens, and straight TIFs insist that gays must secretly want them ("bc omg who wouldn't want me teehee?"), it should be called "gayophobia?" The two situations are clearly parallel. It's homophobia from heterosexuals who want homosexuals. Splitting it up and pretending that somehow being female overrides all that and compounds it x1000 just introduces confusion about what's actually happening.

    And the "women are fluid" I guess "myth" comes from heterosexual or 1% bi women being willing to engage with each other sexually for a man's entertainment. The fact that they often want to bring lesbians into this is a big problem and contributes to them not wanting to date or have relationships with bisexuals.

    [–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    I really don't think that being rejected for dating or sex is tantamount to "discrimination".

    I didn't bring up dating or sex (you did), as there is more to it than just that. Like mental health. Bisexuals do experience some levels of homophobia, but they still have their own separate issues that they face regarding sexual orientation. It's similar to mixed race people, they may face racism of a minority group one of their parents may be, but there are people who dislike mix races in itself.

    Some gay guy venting about his status compared to lesbians or other frustrations with lesbians is not discriminatory nor any kind of "phobic".

    Pretty sure it's more than "just venting," it's more the way lesbians are treated by some gay men. I have seen, as well as heard from lesbians, from horrible treatment they received from some gay men. Just because they were lesbian. But again, if they choose to create a certain terms, they can. As I said before, I'm fine with groups making their own terminology, and using it.

    Currently it really isn't even possible for gays to oppress lesbians, nor has it ever in the entire span of written human history been possible.

    If someone is discriminatory, then they are. Regardless, if there's large history behind it or not.

    So when the reverse happens, and straight TIFs insist that gays must secretly want them ("bc omg who wouldn't want me teehee?"), it should be called "gayophobia?" The two situations are clearly parallel

    Lesbians have gotten it way worse than gay men. Does it happen to gay men? Yes. But lesbians have gotten the shorter end of the stick when it comes to transpeople. Gay men get to stand up to them more than lesbians, and not face as much as backlash as them. They got to keep their spaces, even when calling out transpeople, but lesbians got theirs stamped out. Just as lesbians were more likely to face death threats, rape threats, doxing, etc. Crap, there's even the whole gross "cotton ceiling" created just because they didn't want to sleep with transwomen.

    The "women are fluid" myth came from men thinking women were more "fluid" and men not so much. Either way, agree to disagree.

    [–]usehername[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    there is more to it than just that. Like mental health.

    Bisexuals don't face discrimination in access to mental health services. I'm not talking about people slightly disliking someone or being slightly rude to them. I'm talking about discrimination and violence.

    It's similar to mixed race people, they may face racism of a minority group one of their parents may be, but there are people who dislike mix races in itself.

    Someone disliking you isn't oppression. Discrimination and violence are.

    Pretty sure it's more than "just venting," it's more the way lesbians are treated by some gay men. I have seen, as well as heard from lesbians, from horrible treatment they received from some gay men. Just because they were lesbian.

    This is interesting because it's well known among gays that lesbians are incredibly hateful towards them. I've known many lesbians like that, and there are countless examples online. They sometimes think their masculinity makes them better than gays in every single way and it can even be violent. My best friend told me about an instance where a gay friend of his got the absolute fuck beaten out of him by a lesbian in their apartment complex and her feminine bi gf called the police and cried that he was hitting her. This is a ghetto situation but it's a decent reflection of the current dynamics. Point being, when gays experience oppression it's violence and discrimination. Lesbians face the same thing, albeit with a bit less violence in general.

    Discrimination isn't being disliked. It's being denied civil rights, and it's often paired with violence.

    Lesbians have gotten it way worse than gay men. Gay men get to stand up to them more than lesbians, and not face as much as backlash as them. They got to keep their spaces, even when calling out transpeople, but lesbians got theirs stamped out. Just as lesbians were more likely to face death threats, rape threats, doxing, etc. Crap, there's even the whole gross "cotton ceiling" created just because they didn't want to sleep with transwomen.

    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN6bUPUugEzmNmC-nZTunsVPUtgAuMANMmoVSD1j5gmROqY5E53VSCukHKc8zSRHA?pli=1&key=bTMzMDNKeC1vbkFkRjlqTHJKM284RU1IQ3JkSlF3

    Gay venues are shut down for not accepting TIFs. Apps have to accept them. There is tons of pressure for gays to date a "man with a vagina". Ask some. And it seems you haven't heard of the "boxer ceiling".

    And gays have always faced (and continue to face) the most death and rape, along with just death and rape threats, just for being gay.

    The "women are fluid" myth came from men thinking women were more "fluid" and men not so much.

    That isn't an origin. Why did they think that? It's because many heterosexual or 1% bi women being willing to engage with each other sexually for a man's entertainment. The fact that they often want to bring lesbians into this to use as human sextoys. Ask some lesbians if they have ever been pressured into an arrangement like this.

    edit: But the focus on heterosexual transsexuals misses the real problem, which is homosexuals being forced or coerced into transitioning because of homophobia.

    [–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Bisexuals don't face discrimination in access to mental health services. I'm not talking about people slightly disliking someone or being slightly rude to them. I'm talking about discrimination and violence.

    It's not about access, it's having shit ton of mental health issues related to biphobia. If they are denied access, that would probably be due to them being out and the place being homophobic (since bisexuals are still same sex attracted).

    Someone disliking you isn't oppression. Discrimination and violence are.

    Mate, disliking someone over race is racism. Racism is oppression. It doesn't have to be just systemic oppression. It's also about unfair treatment.

    This is interesting because it's well known among gays that lesbians are incredibly hateful towards them. I've known many lesbians like that, and there are countless examples online.

    Well, we have seen the opposites. I've seen lesbians mistreated by gay men. For being women, and being lesbians. More than I've seen the opposite. As for the "boxer ceiling," I've seen but again... Lesbians have suffered way more when it comes to the treatment they faced from transpeople. When it's comes to the treatment by trans done to LGB, who do people talk most of being mistreated the most? Lesbians.

    That isn't an origin. Why did they think that? It's because many heterosexual or 1% bi women being willing to engage with each other sexually for a man's entertainment. The fact that they often want to bring lesbians into this to use as human sextoys. Ask some lesbians if they have ever been pressured into an arrangement like this.

    I have talked to lesbians before, and you're the only one to come into that conclusion. Most replies would be about heterosexual women or the whole idea that men were "100% on or off" and women "uncertain" (albeit this mainly came from some of RadFem lesbians). The only time bisexual women were brought up was the some who dated lesbians then left them for a man. But outside of this, it was the "spicy straights" (who don't call themselves bisexual, or considered bisexual. They call themselves straight becuase outside of that one particular scenario, they weren't sleeping with women). As for being pressured, not the lesbians I hung out with. Then again, I hung out with butch lesbians, it might have been due to that.

    But the focus on heterosexual transsexuals misses the real problem, which is homosexuals being forced or coerced into transitioning because of homophobia

    True ig.

    [–]usehername[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    It's not about access, it's having shit ton of mental health issues related to biphobia.

    Such as what and what is biphobia? Some people being rude to a person? I'm sorry but I've never heard of a bisexual who was bullied to suicide for their bisexuality. Maybe from homophobic bullying. And I just really don't see rudeness as anywhere comparable to actual homophobia which involves violence and discrimination.

    (since bisexuals are still same sex attracted)

    I didn't forget lol. One major points in my OP was that many bisexuals experience a form of homophobia and call it "biphobia".

    It's also about unfair treatment.

    Can you give me an example of a bisexual being treated unfairly specifically for their bisexuality?

    When it's comes to the treatment by trans done to LGB, who do people talk most of being mistreated the most? Lesbians.

    First, it depends who you listen to, and second, gays are used to much more horrific treatment so they don't complain about it as much. They're used to real hate crimes, not just hurt feelings.

    RadFem lesbians

    "Radfem" ideas about the way the world works are ridiculous and myopic, and you'll find that most "radfem lesbians" aren't actually lesbians because radical feminists think lesbianism is two women rubbing their divine femininities together and you can choose to become a lesbian. The whole "women have a fluid sexuality" was specifically pushed by radical feminists because they wanted women to try to become lesbians. And yeah, being pressured into threesomes with men is something that happens to feminine appearing lesbians, since the man has to be attracted to her.

    "spicy straights"

    1% is still bisexual. They're bihets. I just keep seeing bisexuals who are strict about definitions when it comes to gay and lesbian suddenly decide that these particular bisexuals aren't also bisexual so they can put themselves in a different category from people who do bad things.

    [–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Such as what and what is biphobia? Some people being rude to a person? I'm sorry but I've never heard of a bisexual who was bullied to suicide for their bisexuality. Maybe from homophobic bullying. And I just really don't see rudeness as anywhere comparable to actual homophobia which involves violence and discrimination.

    The discrimination towards bisexual people for being bisexual. Where such people do exist. I have, and when they don't commit suicide, they have negative mental health due to it.

    many bisexuals experience a form of homophobia and call it "biphobia".

    We know the difference. Mistreatment based on someone being bisexual isn't homophobia. They're not the same thing.

    Can you give me an example of a bisexual being treated unfairly specifically for their bisexuality?

    The ideas and attitudes some people will have towards bisexuals. Such as they're cheaters, promiscuous, attention seeking, etc. There's also the idea that people think bisexuality doesn't exist. That bisexual women are actually straight, and bisexual men are closeted gay men. That can't be classified as homophobia. Also, you do realize in that specific sect of my previous comment, I was referring to mixed race people right? If you're rude to someone based on something they can't control, race, sexual orientation, sex, etc. That is seen as discriminatory. Especially if you don't treat others, specifically those in the same group as you, the same way. That's unfair treatment.

    real hate crimes, not just hurt feeling

    The fact is most talked about is lesbians. Pretty sure giving rape and death threats towards lesbians, by transpeople, is a hate crime. Just because they weren't treated as horribly as gay men were in some societies, does not make it any less of a hate crime.

    "radfem lesbians" aren't actually lesbians because radical feminists think lesbianism is two women rubbing their divine femininities together and you can choose to become a lesbian. The whole "women have a fluid sexuality" was specifically pushed by radical feminists because they wanted women to try to become lesbians

    Wait, so those exclusively same sex attracted women I met who also shared RadFem interests/ideas weren't actually lesbians??? Regardless of how you feel about Radfems, sexual orientation doesn't work like that. There can be genuine lesbians in RadFem (there are), because it has to do with feminism. The idea of "women have fluid sexuality" is not pushed by women, it's pushed by men. The group you're referring to as trying to "make lesbians" are political lesbians. NOT radfems.

    1% is still bisexual. They're bihets. I just keep seeing bisexuals who are strict about definitions when it comes to gay and lesbian suddenly decide that these particular bisexuals aren't also bisexual so they can put themselves in a different category from people who do bad things.

    A spicy straight isn't bisexual. There is no such thing as "bihet." It has nothing to do with distancing ourselves from the minority of bad bisexuals. Some chick who kisses another girl in the actual scenario where she wants men's attention is not bisexual. She's a spicy straight.

    [–]usehername[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    The discrimination towards bisexual people for being bisexual.

    Define that and give me examples.

    If you're rude to someone based on something they can't control, race, sexual orientation, sex, etc. That is seen as discriminatory.

    When someone spits on you in the street, yeah. When someone online says "you're a slut" it isn't.

    rape and death threats

    Gay males experience more actual death and rape. The only death and rape threats or actual actions that would happen to a bisexual are due to their homosexual side. When has a homosexual ever threatened to kill or rape you for being bi? This is what I'm talking about with real discrimination and hate.

    Radfems have the idea of "political lesbianism" so you never really know which one of them is a real lesbian, but yes, some of them are. The basis of radical feminism and feminism in general was built by lesbians, radical feminism because lesbians assumed straight women were exactly like them. Political lesbianism is a gigantic part of radical feminist. Exalted radical feminist authors such as Sheila Jeffreys and Julie Bindel are political lesbians. Whether they are genuinely lesbians or not is moot because they believe lesbianism is a choice and they chose it, and so can all women.

    There is no such thing as "bihet." .... the minority of bad bisexuals

    History says otherwise, and unfortunately they are the majority of bisexuals. Just look at history. Societies where bisexuality was normal for 99% of the population. Compare that to now when bisexuals poll at about 30% of the population because homosexuals are more segregated from the general population and it's less acceptable to engage with them because now instead of being seen as normal, it's seen as being "one of them" even if one isn't. Though it's important to note that in these bisexual societies, homosexuals were treated much worse so this bit of segregation is a good thing. Homosexuals built communities from nothing.

    The important part is this: what changed? Nothing changed biologically. Homosexuality has stayed at a pretty constant (approximately) 1% of the population. This is biologically necessary because most people need to breed. Nowadays with higher life expectancy and quality of life, our population is booming, so we really need to cool it on the breeding, but our biology doesn't know that. Still, in order to stay constant, almost everyone needs to have about two children, though we know with intellect (as opposed to biological urges) that more people need to have one or no children so we can gradually reduce the population.

    In any case, the word "bihet" describes reality. Yes, these people are mostly (generally by a landslide) straight. They're also most people. This is biologically necessary to keep the population at least constant.

    [–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Define that and give me examples.

    I already gave you my personal definition. I stated that biphobia is the discrimination against bisexuality. I even used an example of mixed race discrimination. That is not exactly black/white, and that people experience specific things issues only related to them, and not the two groups they're from/similar to. Examples of biphobia is the mistreatment of bisexuals based on stereotypes (ex women are sluts, men are in denial gays, and they're cheaters) and outright inaccurate ideas (ex bisexuality doesn't exist).

    When someone spits on you in the street, yeah. When someone online says "you're a slut" it isn't.

    Depending who it is said towards, and the reasoning behind it can both be discriminatory... You do realize discrimination isn't only about action right? By that logic, if a black person is just called the n-word, it isn't racism. Just because white guy didn't beat them up, doesn't mean he isn't racist. He is still discriminatory.

    Gay males experience more actual death and rape. The only death and rape threats or actual actions that would happen to a bisexual are due to their homosexual side. When has a homosexual ever threatened to kill or rape you for being bi? This is what I'm talking about with real discrimination and hate.

    Mate, you're really trying to play Oppression Olympics here. I'm just stating that lesbians are seen to receive it more, and people are shown to acknowledge that. Doesn't mean it doesn't occur to gay men. Remove the sexual orientations, and this would just be the same "b-b-but men experience it too!!!!" scenario. Jesus, now I know what lesbians meant... Also, rape that is reported isn't done by homosexuals, but mostly straight men when it comes to bisexual (women). You really think a phobe is gonna differentiate between the two? They don't care to, as long as they know you're capable of same sex attraction, they'll attack. "Real discrimination or hate" this isn't a competition, and all these things are real forms of discrimination and hate.

    Again, bihet isn't a real thing. Maybe if you're into Twitter, then sure. Because it is no different to the "homo/heteroflexible" crap or any other nonsense LGBTQ+ has coined. A bisexual is a bisexual. Regardless if they're more same or opposite sex leaning. They aren't straight, they aren't gay.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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