I did some data analysis on the AL demographics survey. Any requests?

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.Lesbians

I did some data analysis on the raw data from the AL survey that got released recently.

My comment with some stats: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/64fv/one_in_three_people_on_ractuallesbians_is_a/nuc6

I tried to answer the following questions I was curious about:

  • How many trans-identified people are on AL? (That is: How many people marked "cis woman" without marking ANY other options?)
  • How many of the people on AL who say they are "lesbian" are actually "lesbian" (cisgender, female)? (That is: How many people who marked "lesbian" are NOT strictly cisgender women?)
  • How many "bisexual lesbians" and what-have-you are there among the people who identify as "lesbians" on AL? (That is: How many people marked "lesbian" without marking ANY other options, for sexual orientation?)

I answered these questions in the comment I linked up top. Thought I'd post it here because I know not everybody checks s/LGBdroptheT. But if people don't want to see this stuff, I can delete this post.

Is there any other information from this survey you'd like to know? I am happy to try to pull other interesting or relevant information out, for fun.

Edit: Quick facts-- keeping in mind that this is from one survey, prone to volunteer bias, et cetera. "AL lesbians" is those who marked themselves as "lesbians" on the survey.

  • 45% of the "AL lesbians" are trans or trans-questioning.
  • 11% of the "AL lesbians" also marked that they are "bisexual" or "pansexual"-- that is, they are, so to speak, "bisexual lesbians" (don't shoot the messenger, lol).
  • The "AL lesbians" are also refer to themselves as, in the following order of preference: 1. "gay" 2. "queer" 3. "sapphic" 4. "homosexual".
  • 23% 31% of all AL, and 36% 48% of self-described "AL lesbians", are actually lesbians as we here define the term. (thanks to u/VioletRemi for the suggestion)

Edit2: While in the process of following up on a couple of people's insightful questions, I discovered that I made a couple of mistakes in processing the data-- specifically, I accidentally excluded a couple of groups. I have updated all the relevant numbers but left the previous incorrect ones with a strikethrough, for clarity/transparency.

Mistakes I made that have now been corrected:

  • I accidentally excluded lesbians who marked "queer" in addition to "lesbian". (Accounted for like 100ish people.)

  • I accidentally excluded lesbians who marked "homosexual" or "gay" instead of "lesbian". (Accounted for like 20ish people.) E.g. if someone marked only "homosexual", but not "lesbian", and otherwise met the criteria for being a "real/actual lesbian", I now include them in "real/actual lesbian" numbers, i.e. that 31% number.

SORRY for the confusion!! If you see any mistakes OR have any concerns about my methodology, PLEASE feel free to let me know :)

Edit3: Added a graph with age groups. https://imgur.com/a/a9VDPAG (thanks to u/writerlylesbian for the suggestion)

Edit4: Age results for lesbians:

Of those who are lesbian (female-born homosexual):

  • 16% are under 18

  • 47% are 18-25 age range

  • 32% are 26-35 age range

  • 5% are 36-45 age range

  • 1.3% are 46+

And--

Age results for trans-identified males, via those who marked "transwoman" (not necessarily ID'ing as "trans lesbian"):

Note that this is a minimum estimate of transwomen/trans-identified males. At least 27% of the AL survey respondents are trans-identified males (488 out of 1803 total respondents). I did not include people who marked "nonbinary" but not "transwoman" because we don't know whether they are trans-identified males.

Graph, transwomen-only, by age: https://imgur.com/a/RWLHQBi Imgur

Of self-identified transwomen:

  • 9% marked "Under 18"

  • 54% marked "18-25"

  • 31% marked "26-35"

  • 4% marked "36-45"

  • 0% marked anything 46+ (5 people total)

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[–]VioletRemi 29 insightful - 4 fun29 insightful - 3 fun30 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

More like /r/ActualNotLesbians

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yyyyyeah. Pretty much lol. I was surprised how many "bisexual/pansexual lesbians" there were. Not surprised by the number of self-identified trans lesbians, we kind of suspected that.

[–]VioletRemi 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From your other post, it seems like there from all who marked themselves as "lesbians" only 24% are marked as "only lesbians" and not as lesbian+smth else. And from those 24% is even less are "cis women".

[–]verystablegenius 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that got banned too.

[–]a_blue_bird 19 insightful - 8 fun19 insightful - 7 fun20 insightful - 8 fun -  (5 children)

I have to laugh at lesbians being a minority in a sub titled ''ACTUAL lesbians''. It's just another queer melting pot, where the non-gay majority is ''educating'' actual homosexuals on what is the only acceptable way how they should lead their lives.

[–]VioletRemi 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Just like it was before on west and just like it is now in homophobic countries. I wonder why there no transgenders or transbians in countries with homophobia or in countries where women has no rights?

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Actually, I don't know if you have heard about it but in many countries, there are transgender people-- because gay children's parents think "it is better for my child to change genders and be straight, than be gay as their gender", so they force their child to transition. In Iran (and I think Pakistan as well) it is actually in law and the government offers LGB the options of 1. death 2. transgender transitioning! Very homophobic concept.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It is only few countries, tho. And it is forced on homosexual people. Or it is done for prostitution, like in Tailand or Brazil. What I meant, was the transgender craze like in english-speaking countries and EU, where suddenly millions appeared in few years, and everyone want to go into women spaces or declaring themselves as lesbians.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, I get what you mean. Yeah, that's true. I think it is a social contagion, and a potent one. But I think you're right, it is endemic to certain areas.

[–]spirette 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

EU countries aren't all the same in that regard. The trans nonsense is big in English-speaking/English-dominated countries (UK, Sweden, Ireland maybe, Germany to some extent). Not surprising considering this shit comes from the US. It's almost unheard of in Eastern Europe and Latin countries (France, Spain, Italy) are relatively spared (so far) and it's restricted to kweer circles.

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Their sub description is literally this so the only thing that surprised me is how high the percentage of self-reported "cis" lesbians is.

A place for discussions for and by cis and trans lesbians, bisexual girls, chicks who like chicks, bi-curious folks, dykes, butches, femmes, girls who kiss girls, birls, bois, aces, LGBT allies, and anyone else interested!

[–]TalerTest 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Lesbian means everyone apparently. I'm not buying that percentage of lesbians either. But if they are actual lesbians, then they must be either 1. really young 2. completely oblivious or 3. drunk on the kool aid. Can't see why any switched-on lesbian would be on that sub.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Someone else suggesting doing a breakdown on age, which I am about to go do now. The overview results that the subreddit posted suggest that the sub skews way young, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's a factor.

Also, drinking the kool-aid. There is a ton of peer pressure among people my age to accept this stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised. I used to exclusively lurk that sub before I found TL and went down the rabbit hole of transgender ideology.

edit: Just to update-- I did a breakdown of age in a comment, and in a graph. Your three points appear to be correct, and so are my numbers. They are really young-- almost twice as many in the "under 18" and "18-25" categories, as in the rest of the age categories. And as other people outlined as well.. there is a lot of kool-aid drinking going on, unfortunately.

[–]mangosplums 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Can you add the age results to the op? Thanks for this whole thing it’s really interesting.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah sure! No problem, glad you find it interesting :)

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I looked at the "cisgender woman" group and 6% of the people who marked that, also marked a trans category, another 6% marked questioning. I am confused as to why some people marked that they were a cis woman and also that they were trans, but who knows.

Someone else pointed out that some could just be straight-up lying about being cis-- we have kind of seen this with "I'm a bio woman!" from transwoman, so I guess that could be a factor too.

Also yeah, not surprising lol.

[–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There can be real lesbians, most likely closeted women from very homophobic countries, autistic lesbians and young/teen lesbians. Reddit is biggest forum, so they will end up there. In minds of most people West is lesbian heaven with all this homosexual marriages, lesbian/gay bars, and so on. So for people who either don't know how it is to be a lesbian at all, or they are very gullible, and to them it will be still weird to see all this strange "transbian" focus, but what they know in their closet, west should know more and explored more, right?

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yup, exactly. That is my inclination as well.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

What do you guys think? The survey suggests that 23% 31% (edit: yikes I'm sorry) of r/actuallesbians are, actually, lesbians (going by our definition). I don't know about you, but that's more than I was expecting.

That's a lot of people who could be here in this sub! Any way we could try to reach out to them more?

[–]Innisfree 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I'm willing to bet that these are people form a younger demographic who perhaps are very concerned about not offending anyone in the LGBTQ+ and may be enjoying the appearance of an all-loving, all-accepting community. The key word here is of course 'appearance'.

I think it's fantastic you did the data breakdown- thank you! It's always good to have reliable info (well as reliable as we can from a survey). I am wary when I see these over-generalizations "There are only men there". While not far from the truth, the more we know, the better we can understand what is happening.

[–]VioletRemi 15 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

younger demographic

They are non-binary nowadays in majority. It is new subculture i'd say.

It is sad that real lesbians were forced to flee from such big platform (or, well, all big platforms), as young people or questioning adults would first search on bigger platform, and will find... that instead of us or other real lesbians. And then they will think that "that" is a norm and how it should be. Separatism may be good sometimes, but it never will fix any problems in society in long run, only hurt others like ourselfs right now.

[–]florasis 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They were forced to flee after the trans took over moderation and basically being sincere and not sucking to ladydick ideology was not allowed anymore.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know. And if we will create new /r/TL there, it will be removed again.

[–]Innisfree 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Eloquently put! Agree, especially with:

Separatism may be good sometimes, but it never will fix any problems in society in long run, only hurt others like ourselfs right now.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm willing to bet that these are people form a younger demographic who perhaps are very concerned about not offending anyone in the LGBTQ+ and may be enjoying the appearance of an all-loving, all-accepting community. The key word here is of course 'appearance'.

I'm really inclined to believe this, myself. That is what I used to like about Tumblr/AL, back before I started really digging into transgender stuff (and my own sexual orientation). And we can talk about people in the trans rights movement being manipulative-- but quite frankly, I think a lot of well-meaning people are being misled by a manipulative few.

People want to be understood and accepted. The participants of AL skew so young. I am guessing most have never even questioned how a movement that purports to be "loving and accepting" could be ANYTHING otherwise. I personally am capable of believing it.. because I have firsthand, personal experience with people who are that manipulative, and I could easily imagine a movement led by them. Ironically-- the straight people claiming to be LGBT (among nonbinary trans, medically transitioning trans, late bloomer lesbians, bisexuals, asexuals, etc.)-- are far more likely than us to have had secure relationships and attachments, growing up. They're less likely to have been abused by highly manipulative people in the first place. And I kind of wonder if that's part of why some find it impossible to see LGBTQ+ in any sort of bad light. They just haven't had that experience yet.

Thank you!! :) I agree about over-generalizations. It is clear that it is not "just men" in AL-- there is actually a solid minority of lesbians (lol), and it is just not fair for us to pretend they don't exist.

While not far from the truth, the more we know, the better we can understand what is happening.

Yup, totally agree.

[–]Innisfree 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And we can talk about people in the trans rights movement being manipulative-- but quite frankly, I think a lot of well-meaning people are being misled by a manipulative few.

Yeah, i agree. My "appearance" comment is an awkward stand-in for my perception that some communities online only appear to be all-accepting. I mean being online for young people always carries a bit of risk, regardless wether it's an LBGT space.

I remember leaving Tumblr in the early '10 when I started seeing reports from butch lesbians in the process of transitioning being talked over, sidelined or experiencing misogyny from transwomen online or in their LGBT support groups. I didn't know what exactly to make of it at the time, because i saw few reports and thought maybe it's just some exceptional cases. But they were bad enough to turn me off from online lesbian communities for quite a while.

[–]mangosplums 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree generally with this comment, but I have a question about one part-

Ironically-- the straight people claiming to be LGBT (among nonbinary trans, medically transitioning trans, late bloomer lesbians, bisexuals, asexuals, etc.)-- are far more likely than us to have had secure relationships and attachments, growing up. They're less likely to have been abused by highly manipulative people in the first place. And I kind of wonder if that's part of why some find it impossible to see LGBTQ+ in any sort of bad light. They just haven't had that experience yet.

Aren't the straight people claiming to be LGBT the ones who are being manipulative though? So they aren't the ones who are being misled, it's the actual gay people who are. And I do agree the people generally probably haven't had an experience with people who are this manipulative before and do not recognize it for what it is.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Aren't the straight people claiming to be LGBT the ones who are being manipulative though? So they aren't the ones who are being misled, it's the actual gay people who are.

Some of each-- not mutually exclusive.

  • Some straight people claiming to be LGBT are doing it to be manipulative.

  • Some straight people claiming to be LGBT are being manipulated into thinking they are LGBT-- for example, a straight GNC girl whose bigoted mother decides her daughter must be a boy because she is "failing" at being a girl. Or the straight women in unhappy marriages who read the "Comphet master document" and become convinced they are lesbian because they hate having sex with their husband-- despite not feeling attraction to women.

  • Actual gay people are also being misled as well.

That is what I have seen, anyway.

[–]mangosplums 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh I see what what you're saying, yes I agree with what you say. Yes, many of those people are not deliberately identifying as the wrong label, they are trying to be well-meaning.

[–]mangosplums 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I imagine it’s 1) people who don’t use the Sub often enough to have seen the level of homophobia and toxicity that goes on there. 2) they’ve drink the koolaid

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I think so. It makes a lot of sense to me that a bunch of them would still go there-- the sub is named "actuallesbians" which fools a lot fo people into thinking it's a sub for lesbians, and it's one of the only spaces left to find any lesbians at all on Reddit.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 7 fun5 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

what else can you say?

[–]yousaythosethings 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What really bothers me is how abysmally terribly the survey was set up. It's a poll of mostly labels that may have had definitions at one point but have been rendered meaningless by this lot, so why not ask the necessary questions like: What biological sex were you born with? What is your gender identity? Who are you attracted to?

That's how you end up with all of these bisexual, pansexual, and (lol) heterosexual lesbians. Screw the labels. Tell us what matters.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Other relevant links/info:

AL's quick summary stats of the survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScrsuzSf0_ZyQw_wo0FnYi5nWvy3SsIIGOonjqYIYDXpgoNdQ/viewanalytics

The Excel spreadsheet with raw data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RUJWhbARmvOMx7BEKWhkJ1Y-yjxMG8uJG7rvMLxZI70/edit#gid=1924215074

Took me like an hour to organize the raw data enough to get some interesting information out of it, so if you want a copy of the more-organized CSV I made, I can try to figure out how to upload it. The data is complicated by the fact that, like with TQ ideology, participants could check off pretty much any combination of boxes even if the labels are inconsistent (e.g. "bisexual lesbian", someone marking both cisgender woman and cisgender man, etc.).

[–]writerlylesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Thank you for taking the time to do this! Anything there on age? (I haven't looked at the raw data so I'm not sure what questions were in the purview). I bet age statistics would show some interesting trends, if it was there.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I saw your comment and went to go look for info on age, and discovered I made a couple mistakes, RIP. I am now updating my numbers. I will get back to age shortly! It's a very good point.

edit: Because I absolutely adore your writing, I was inspired to throw together a graph.. https://imgur.com/a/a9VDPAG

The graph is of all survey respondents, to be clear, and the percentages I list below are among just the subgroup that are lesbians.

Basically-- lesbians (female-born homosexuals) seem to make up a larger (edit: meant "larger" not "large") proportion of the users that are older. Unsurprising perhaps, given that "lesbian" is a less popular label in general among people my age. But, the majority of lesbians on AL are still actually quite young. There's almost twice as many that are under 25, as there are over 25. And speaking as an under-25 myself, there is a ton of peer pressure among people my age to believe all this gender stuff, so I'm really not surprised that there are as many real lesbian on AL as there seem to be (31% per my corrected code). I would bet that 26-35 age range is actually pretty affected by this sort of peer pressure too, but I'm not sure.

Of those who are lesbian (female-born homosexual):

  • 16% are under 18
  • 47% are 18-25 age range
  • 32% are 26-35 age range
  • 5% are 36-45 age range
  • 1.3% are 46+

[–]Innisfree 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Very insightful. Kudos to you for the fantastic work.

Agree on peer pressure, saw it among the 35 age group where I live. In the words of Galadriel: "The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air."

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aw, thank you :) :) I'm so glad you find it interesting!

Yeah, I am not inclined to speak for other age groups but it's good to hear from others who have that experience. That is a very relevant quote.

[–]writerlylesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're amazing, I suck at making graphs and that kind of thing. Really cool the way you've put everything together. The "Is lesbian?" question on the side of the graph really made me laugh. Quite striking how much the non-lesbians outnumber the lesbians in pretty much all age categories. And the fact that it skews very young confirms what I had always assumed to be the case with that site.

Because I absolutely adore your writing

Thank you :) Glad someone enjoys my internet rambling.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Aw thanks!! :) :) I feel honored you appreciate it. I do greatly enjoy your internet rambling!

The "Is lesbian?" question on the side of the graph really made me laugh.

I only realized after I made the first version of the graph that it looked kind of funny, so I left it, lol.

And the fact that it skews very young confirms what I had always assumed to be the case with that site.

Everyone is talking about race, but this is actually the unique part of the demographics data, in my opinion. AL is pretty typical compared to the rest of Reddit, race-wise, but I think they might actually skew a little younger than many other parts of Reddit. Makes sense to me.. I've often gone on there and seen comments that I'm like, "How could a grown adult have said this..?" And the truth is that they are probably not an adult, or are a young adult or I guess they're very deep into transgender ideology.

By the way, I don't know how much interest you have in data analysis yourself, but I learned from a free online textbook (a couple, actually, but one especially) that is fantastic. If you're interested in any resources on how to do this stuff, I would be happy to share. But no pressure, just figured I would throw it out there, I love doing this stuff haha.

[–]writerlylesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I'd be happy to have links/resources. Not in possession of a lot of spare time right now, but eventually it would be cool to look into it.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you feel like it and have the time, can you do an analysis on the demographics of the trans-identified males, specifically their race and age.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure, I will take a look.

One thing to note-- because sex is not specified, only gender identity, the best guess I have as to trans-identified males is just from the "transwoman" category. There may be a lot more trans-identified men among "nonbinary" who did not mark the "transwoman" box, but it is difficult to tell.

Edit: Not a complete answer but here's age. Again-- this is the minimum number of transwomen/trans-identified males. At least 27% of the survey respondents (488 out of 1803 total respondents).

Graph, transwomen-only, by age: https://imgur.com/a/RWLHQBi

Of self-identified transwomen:

  • 9% marked "Under 18"
  • 54% marked "18-25"
  • 31% marked "26-35"
  • 4% marked "36-45"
  • 0% marked anything 46+ (5 people total)

Still need to pull apart race (and I suppose relationship status if people are curious, lol). They broke it down into a bunch of categories.. I might group some of them together.

[–]Ricky_Ticky 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That was a really interesting read, thank you for putting it together!

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No problem! Thanks for reading it, I'm glad you enjoyed it :)