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[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

No. I wrote:

Even if you wish to argue that an unborn first trimester fetus is 50% the property of a man (though it's not), the 50% ownership of the fetus by the mother would give her as much right to determine what is best for her and the fetus. Overturning RvW would remove that right from the woman in 22 states. The rights of the man would be greater than those of the mother. Moreover, one can easily show that the mother has much greater than 50% of the right to determine what is best for her and the fetus. Men who want to have children can make arrangements with women who want to have children. Men do not have the right to force women to have children, regardless of unethical laws in some states.

and then this:

'property' is not the issue. A fetus is part of the mother, part of her body.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

'property' is not the issue. A fetus is part of the mother, part of her body.

That's what I said you said. And it is a property issue, since you say a fetus belongs to the mother. But it is its own being. It moves on its own, grows its own brain, has its own senses, and its own heartbeat. That is not the same as an arm or a leg. Should a siamese twin be allowed to chop the other's head off because it's "part of their body"?

This is not a men vs women thing, this has nothing to do with men thinking they should have control over women. Men aren't even relevant here. But that's how the media portrays it to you. When seen from that angle, that being against abortion is meant to take away womens' rights, and ignoring the argument about life, being pro-choice makes sense. But that's fake news. Conservatives have genuinely cared about this for a very long time. They didn't actually become insane fascists until the middle of 2020, when the left was asking for it by burning down entire towns rioting and looting and false flagging as anarchists. Then they started being racist, sexist, alphabet-phobic, and obsessed with enforcing tradition and natural order and purging "degeneracy". The abortion battle has been raging for far longer than that, so it can't be rooted in their much more recent sexist beliefs.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I see your point, but my argument is, as I've noted, that the fetus not be called 'property'; that the fetus is actually a part of the mother's body, specially in the first trimester, when significant portions of the brain have not developed. The mental independence of the fetus - its consciousness - does not develop until the period of weeks 12-16. In the first trimester, the womb and umbilical cord and mother are essentially the identity of the fetus, which - at 12 weeks - reaches only 5.4cm in length, weighing only 18 grams. At that stage, its identity is as an attachment to the mother. Individualized characteristics and consciousness develop thereafter.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

How do you know for sure? Science has time and time again underestimated the awareness of babies, young children, animals, and the intellectually impaired. Humans are fringely social creatures, so someone's verbal ability greatly impacts how aware our instincts process them as being. We also have such in-group loyalty that outsiders are often considered lesser or subhuman.

But abortions are now being allowed to take place after birth, reminiscent of the Roman practice of abandoning the baby should it not be good enough for the father (only it's the mother this time). And many abortions are done in brutal ways which include ripping the fetus into pieces one by one while it's still alive. And in some cases, scientists take a fetus for "experimentation" and cut into it while it's still conscious. But because on paper a creature isn't considered alive until birth, all this doesn't matter apparently.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

How do you know for sure?

For decades this 12-week consciosness argument has been a central to the rationale for permitting abortions in the 1st trimester. It's often mentioned, and is followed by much of the rest of the civilized world. Here is a sample link:

An abortion is defined as: "the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy." Those who claim that pro-choice arguments include murdering a child after birth are wrong. This is not art of the RvW decision.

Regarding the period when an abortion could be considered, I think most who are in favor of it focus on the 1st trimester. After that, my view is that abortion is not justified.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The media certainly pushes abortion no matter what term so they show everyone how woke and progressive they are. Lately even immediately after birth.

But again, we can't prove the 1st trimester unconsciousness argument, and science has a tendency to vastly underestimate the cognitivity of non-verbal beings.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The 'media' isn't one thing. I don't have to prove anything. I note that the argument about 1st term development is an old, reliable argument with a scientific basis.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So were babies and dogs not being able to understand language. Both were proven false assumptions. As was the ability to recognize yourself in the mirror being indicative of self-awareness. What if you've never seen yourself before? Or don't know what a mirror is?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

A 5 cm, 18 g fetus with minimal brain stem activity and no consciousness at 11 weeks doesn't understand anything. After that, the fetus develops consciousness.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It turns out that bees with pebble-sized brains can remember and recognize human faces. We never know when a fetus becomes conscious for the first time.