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[–]magnora7[S] 48 insightful - 7 fun48 insightful - 6 fun49 insightful - 7 fun -  (60 children)

Then sane comments that call out the nonsense are downvoted:

Voat is overrun with shills, and white supremacists who can't tell they're surrounded by shills. Voat has a lot of free speech, but very little moral backbone despite all the grandstanding they do. I guess that's what happens when you let white supremecist neo-nazis literally take over your site and run it for their own benefit. They'll cheer on murder as long as the people killed have the skin color and religion they don't like.


This is why voat can't be the next reddit. This is why we had to build saidit, to give people a 3rd option, because one didn't really exist. Free information for those who aren't completely lost to extremist ideology. Which is why this site used to be called back in the day

[–]EndlessSunflowers 21 insightful - 6 fun21 insightful - 5 fun22 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks again for saidit. I've been using it frequently.
I don't know if many people are letting you know that we appreciate it, but we do!

[–]magnora7[S] 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

You're welcome! A couple of people have mentioned they appreciate it, and it means a lot to hear that after the hundreds of hours of work d3rr and I have each put in to saidit so far.

[–]Icalasari 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I also have to say I'm impressed. So far the only replacement I found was dread, but that's on the darkweb so it's a bit more out of the way and as such could never be a replacement unless the internet itself is cracked down on and the wild west days completely end (so like... a couple years, tops :u). I ESPECIALLY love the transparency and how you dealt with the downvote issue and the issue of upvotes rarely going to the good posts instead of the funny/topical posts

Already have a few subs in mind when my account ages enough

[–]iufewal 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

As one of the extremists, I'm not sure if I agree with the analysis of Voat as being a place taken over by Neo-Nazis. I would argue that Voat was a place where a normal, decent userbase grew from shared experiences into what they are now.

Voat was certainly not in its original form full of white supremacists; in fact, I would argue that the majority of its userbase actually came from fairly tame places; /r/fatpeoplehate, and so on. For a long period of time, Voat contained a userbase much like Reddit's, with the distinction being that they held a deepseated suspicion of everything and anything which smacked of censorship. Anything which was "censored" was automatically viewed as "one of us", a fellow victim of an injustice they all suffered, and someone to be welcomed with open arms.

It was in this climate that Reddit began to crack down upon what you call "extremists"; but the Voat userbase didn't see it that way. They saw themselves in these "extremists", not necessarily because they saw a connection in political ideology, but because they saw a shared experience. The treatment which these "extremists" had suffered at the hands of the administration was sufficient penance for any wrongheaded views they might hold, and Voat, the ever-compassionate, would be willing to lend an ear and a voice to what they had to say.

You can almost see why this idea would be appealing even to people who care little for political ideology; it was a chance to demonstrate their superiority over their erstwhile tormentors, while at the same time a chance to spite the very same people by giving a platform to those they sought to deplatform. Had Reddit banned /r/chapotraphouse or any sort of communist subreddit, Voat would have just as eagerly jumped at the chance to the support of the far left. That ship has probably sailed by now, but still, the claim that Voat was / is an extremist site doesn't sit right with me at all. It has always been what it still is: A free-speech fundamentalist site where censorship on the grounds of political opinions (no matter how vile or repulsive) is the first enemy, even before anything else.

[–]magnora7[S] 19 insightful - 5 fun19 insightful - 4 fun20 insightful - 5 fun -  (20 children)

I agree completely with your synopsis, and I have been using voat since it was called whoaverse. It was good back then.

But the way it is now... it's hard to deny there is a serious serious culture problem. Literally praising terrorists and super-racist low-information posts regularly making the front page. Even if it is bot/shill activity, it makes the site completely suck to use.

And if you go against the voat hivemind, you get downvoted, and then you can't downvote stuff, and it makes a feedback loop that has led to this ridiculous super-hateful echo chamber where one ideology basically took over.

As soon as stormfront got ahold of most mod positions on voat about 3-5 years ago or so, it's slowly been getting worse and worse. I love voat and what it stands for, but let's not deny the character of the current mainstream voat content is very full of hate and race-based ideology. If it were intelligent debates about that, that'd be one thing, but it's 90% knee-jerk hate these days. It's low-information anger being spewed, while those in real positions of power are basically ignored and instead we get to see a "Elizabeth Warren is a fake indian" post for the 1000th time. Valuable stuff is there, but it's often lost in the noise of the culture that overtook it.

I felt like voat was supposed to be the chosen one to save us from reddit. Which is why I felt so let down when it got so taken-over. Which is why we had to make saidit. So in a way, I am kind of thankful voat got taken over or else none of us would be using this site right now.

[–]FictionalSalad 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I joined Voat and agree totally. It's an echo chamber, but one that is incredibly good about maintaining the racist and hate filled userbase. The limit to the number of upvotes, and the limiting of the number of downvotes makes it incredibly difficult if not impossible for anyone who is not well-established on the site to have any sort of meaningful discussion.

I know exactly why it's happening, why people post the amazingly hate-filled stuff they do. The whole idea is to drive away anyone sensible. and I don't care because it works, and I'm not going to have my name or any thing tying me that website. So I just deleted my account after about six hours and said fuck this cesspool.

it isn't even about censorship, it's about decent people saying these comments are not appropriate and we disagree with them. But you can't do that because the site is not structured that way. Voat is dying anyway so it'll just be a matter of time until it goes under.

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The whole idea is to drive away anyone sensible.

Yeah I agree, it's intentional for this reason. But there are also many useful idiots who honestly believe it and think they are in good company.

Your last paragraph is exactly why we had to make saidit. Voat isn't going to work.

[–]Troll 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

Stormfront is full of weirdo WN 1.0 boomers. What infected voat was coontowners and 4channers.

Some of the mods on coontown intentionally bred a low-quality environment for ego-purposes, and it led to voat having a low-quality userbase.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

IMO Those other groups came after the stormfront invasion had taken root, which laid the foundation for what came next. By the time it stopped being whoaverse and became voat, they already had their teeth in it. That was years before coontown got banned on reddit. You're probably right about 4chan (specifically probably /pol/) though

[–]Troll 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Stormfront was never really relevant and doesn't have the organizational skills. 4chan moreso. Just because they had a how-to guide posted there doesn't mean they actually did anything.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

They were back in 2009 or so when voat started getting taken over, I remember it was quite sudden. No racism, then the next day everything is white nationalism, and it never went back

[–]Troll 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Oh, in 2009? Voat is that old? Maybe I'm wrong then. I'd still say it was the 4channers though. Though they're extremely retarded. And I was a founder of CT LOL.

The IRC people were a lot more fun and more intelligent. Did you know evalion came out of coontown?

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah the 4channers probably came around the same time as the stormfront guys and it led to an unholy marriage lol

[–]Troll 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Are you sure they were from stormfront? I have a difficult time of thinking of them as being organized. They're certainly unintelligent, but I mostly viewed it as autistic 4channers.

[–]useless_aether 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

but a good thing about voat are their pizzagate related subs, they are doing real, valuable research

[–]Alduin 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not sure if I agree with the analysis of Voat as being a place taken over by Neo-Nazis

I don't think it was taken over by Nazis, but definitely made a safe harbor for Nazis by paid shills. There was no kindred spirit with these people back with the first wave of users flooded in with the banning of FPH and Niggers. Back then all they wanted was a place to speak freely. Then along came the shills, which were easy enough to spot - they made half the posts and called everyone who criticized them a shill. They simply flooded the site with Nazi content until the only users that stayed were Nazis. They also made clear to any new users that they were not welcome there. These are common intelligence/law enforcement tactics for creating a honeypot.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think it was taken over by Nazis, but definitely made a safe harbor for Nazis by paid shills.

I agree, I think it was a little of both though.

[–]Greedeater 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

From what I've seen, I tend to agree as well.

Bout 4 odd year ago when Eddit really started swinging the banhammer, folk looked for an alternative. I was one of em, won't lie - abhor censorship meself. That's why we went over to explore Voat more fully, started the sub and transferring of content and such. Further we went looking though, the worse we realised the crowd was; it was /b/ and /pol/ combined with an unhealthy mix of Alt Right. Think we hung about for 3 months or so? Decided to stick with what we know and went back to Eddit.

When WPD and Gore got banned this week, Tej n I went back to Voat with the intention of a landing spot for the 500k odd users that suddenly had no sub. Bloody hell, it was basically a caricature of what people think 4Chan is. Almost like they are just to out edgelord each other. Me, I've been around the Chan's for quite since roughly the Habbo raid, so didn't bother me that much.

Then I realised it would bother our old users, most definitely.

So, after 12 minutes of Mod activity there totalling one post and 3 comments, we got nuked from all our modspots after the Voat WPD started Reeeeing. Out the window with that then, haha. Had a look around again at the places I used to be subbed to and... Yeh. It might have pulled the crowd, but definitely kept em, and is basically akin to their own echo chamber that most folk complain about with Left leaning crowd. Nuked me account, came here.

As for here, I like it immensely so far. Feels very 2010 Reddit.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Almost like they are just to out edgelord each other.

That's pretty much a perfect description of what's wrong with voat.

Thanks for telling your story. After years of searching for alternatives myself, it led to the creation of saidit because all the alternatives just sucked. I don't really feel at home on any of them except saidit anymore. Voat was so far to one extreme, and then reddit is so far to the other extreme on the main subs, that we had to make a 3rd option. This site actually used to be called for that very reason.

It just seems possible to have a place with real info that isn't a pit of hate. I saw it with the first 5 years of reddit and the first year or two of voat/whoaverse, so I know it's possible and we hope saidit can bring that spark back.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a very interesting comment.

Someone engineered and deployed a successful divide and conquer political strategy.

[–]solder0 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm really glad that I found saidit. :) And I really miss the voat that I signed up for way back when. It's cancer now.

[–]magnora7[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed, I miss the days when voat was still whoaverse, and also how reddit was in 2007-2010 or so. That was really the golden era of both those sites.

I think saidit's golden era is coming soon. We are lucky to be able to learn from the mistakes of both reddit and voat, because they both failed in different ways. Reddit through censorship, and voat through cultural takeover

[–]Jesus 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Yup, shills and honeypots. I'm fine with people who are nationalists and think whites are the best race. As long as they do not genocide anyone or kill people.

[–]four_leaf_tayback 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Is it possible that when people are "forced" to voat that shills go into full offputting racist mode? My limited experience with voat followed pizzagate and I was pretty amazed by how every comment was ludicrous speed racist. In retrospect I raise an eyebrow.

Also, there are way more than 3 options... maybe not with a reddit interface/voting/username skeleton but yeah

[–]magnora7[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I think the bots (and probably many genuine users too) kick up the hyper-racist shilling when new users are flooding voat. I think the genuine users see it as a "shittest" for a lack of a better word, and the bots are doing it to drive sane rational people away from information that isn't limited.

[–]Orangutan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

did you get the idea for /s/whatever from Voat? Don't remember that being a subreddit over at Reddit. I suppose the downvote equivalent here is a no vote because not all things you disagree with are funny.

[–]wizzwizz4 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was called /r/, and it was deleted. You're right about the no vote; if you ignore the things you don't like, you don't feed the trolls. It's really quite clever.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I must've, yeah. I just like having a catch-all dumping ground for random stuff, especially for early on here.

You're correct that the downvote equivalent here is a no-vote, because a fun vote gives +1 and a insightful vote gives +2 karma, so the worst you can give is +0 by ignoring it. Or you can report it to mods if it really doesn't belong

[–]Alduin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I've read this before I think from you, and I don't really understand what you mean. You are creating a space for non-extreme content, right? So first of all how do you define that? Secondly, with the content being user generated, what are you going to do if you have an extremist user or extremist sub?

Can you please go into more detail about specifically how you plan to make this site different?

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So first of all how do you define that?

By the pyramid of debate, check out the site rules:

If something is so extremist it's repeatedly not adding value as per the pyramid of debate, then it'll be removed.

[–]Alduin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So if I just agree with you all the time, my content will be removed? How about if I'm just sharing news or memes or whatever and not engaging in debate at all?

I hope you can understand my point here. You're putting an awful lot of eggs in a basket of obscurity and limited use cases, in my opinion. This pyramid is only about debating. How that relates to extremist views still illudes me.

[–]magnora7[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's more about judging the content of their character.

If you're constantly shitposting, then you probably will end up doing lots of ad-hominims, which I can point out as the bottom of the pyramid, for example.

This pyramid is only about debating. How that relates to extremist views still illudes me.

The site is for discussion, and those not discussing in good faith will be removed. It's not complex, don't try and make it so.

We simply cannot map out every edge case, and even if we did, then we've just created a very well-defined set of boundaries for trolls to exactly avoid. More rules doesn't mean a better system. Reddit was clear evidence of this. Hell, even US law is evidence of this.

At the end of the day, if you like saidit use it. If you don't, don't use it.

I don't intend to let this place turn in to voat, nor do I intend for it to become reddit. We hope to learn from the mistakes of both.

If you have a better plan or ruleset, I'm all ears. We're always trying to improve.

[–]Stoner 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

This pyramid is only about debating. How that relates to extremist views still illudes me.

The site is for discussion, and those not discussing in good faith will be removed. It's not complex, don't try and make it so.

I've had many interesting and civil discussions with people who have extreme views. Extremist views could very well be "I like to eat babies and would like to create a very polite community of children torturers where we can discuss our hobby in accordance with the pyramid".

and those not discussing in good faith will be removed. It's not complex, don't try and make it so.

Whose measurement of good faith do we use as a basis for judgment, since it's an ultra-subjective definition?

we've just created a very well-defined set of boundaries for trolls to exactly avoid. More rules doesn't mean a better system. Reddit was clear evidence of this. Hell, even US law is evidence of this.

All countries have laws, including those with the highest happiness rating. The US law example is interesting, seeing how I'm from Scandinavia - an area often held as an opposite to the US when it comes to at least correctional systems.

We have laws, but compared to the US they're based on the interest of the people, not the elite. We have correctional systems, but compared to the US they have different goals. It's not about proper laws or not, it's about good or bad laws and who they're good or bad for.

Right now I'm still seeing how the saidit laws are intentionally obscured so the rulers can ultimately give people the "death penalty" based on their subjective and somewhat moralistic views.

At the end of the day, if you like saidit use it. If you don't, don't use it.

That's a fair ultimatum.

If you have a better plan or ruleset, I'm all ears.

Make well-defined and thought out rules, publicly display them and enforce them evenly. Don't unban those who've you kicked out for a month of spamming and don't give a shit if the price is that one or two bitter assholes goes around and badmouths saidit.

There's about to be a shitload of new people whose experience of saidit is that there's no clear rules and the admins enforce them by asking people to be polite. What do you think @alduin is going to say to his friends when he asked about posting memes and your answer is that if you think it's shitposting, he's going to get banned?

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You gotta see this baby eater video: It's not so bad after you watch it a few times.

I was equally skeptical with lots of questions when I first came here. You're not going to find better answers seeking more rules. There are no better answers without looking at those who were dealt with to show by example. Ask m7 about the 3 times he had to ban folks and the one he's considering now, and why he's hesitant, what the pros and cons are, etc. Also be sure to ask about how it was dealt with regarding transparency, warnings, chances given, democratic forums, etc.

Shitposting will get you a warning. I got one. (It's a long embarassing tedious story: /s/quotes/comments/8kd/einstein_quote_if_its_smaller_than_my_fist_or_an/ ) I thought it was obviously silly. I didn't get the big deal until they patiently explained it to me. I didn't even know what shitposting was. I've also never been a Redditor. I came here to be a truther free to seek and speak truth.

IMHO, SaidIt needs to state this more: SaidIt is a classy place.

That's how we can avoid being censored and remain civil and provide quality over quantity. Sure we all may slip into the gutter on occasion, but none of us dwell there.

[–]Greedeater 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]FormosaOolong 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

if you like saidit use it. If you don't, don't use it.

I think this should be on the main page banner!

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I joined Voat years ago when it didn't have many more users than place and it was great. Then Reddit started banning certain subs and all of those people flooded to Voat. If Voat was bigger, it would've survived it but the number of Reddit refugees on Voat quickly dwarfed the original great userbase.

This place looks cool so far but I worry that it's just another Reddit banning or two away from quickly becoming a shithole as well. Although thankfully these days they'll probably go to Voat by default. Personally I don't have a problem with people of all opinions being allowed to exist but it needs to have a balance or it all turns to shit.

[–]EndlessSunflowers 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It's sad to see so many people that are stuck on race.

I know a well mixed variety of all kinds of people in my life, from all over the world, people who live in all kinds of different ways, and it only adds to the richness of my life. I cherish it.

Too bad for these assholes who will never know what that's like.

[–]magnora7[S] 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

It's funny how people on voat think they "see past the narrative" but then fall right in to the next fold of it

[–]iufewal 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's great that we as a species have so much cultural diversity. To me, it seems to be a given that our lives would all be enriched if we spent more time studying the cultures, beliefs, and languages alien to our own; but where an alien culture takes up root within your own lands, that's where I draw the line.

I think of meeting new cultures as something like meeting a friend. You might get along well together, but having them in your room all the time becomes kind of awkward. Having them take up permanent residence in your room while insisting on living in accordance with their own house rules would be downright annoying.

Let me be clear, I'm not saying that one would be justified in shooting non-conforming immigrants; after all, one does not normally take up a gun against annoying friends who stay in your house and disobey your house rules. However, what I am saying is that I don't think an appreciation of the diversity of humanity necessarily leads to agreeing with a policy of mass immigration.

[–]isthisreddit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Its just... if you don't want racism, just let the people be and don't make the issue bigger than it already is. This isn't 1964, this is 2019 and the media is still making race a issue. But i don't think they will understand the meaning of it.

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You removed your insightful vote on your own comment! If only more people did this.

[–]send_nasty_stuff 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Race realism isn't about hating other races. It's about acknowledging that the environment has shaped different racial groups and that those racial groups build very very different societies. Most race realists then go on to endorse nations and regions of similar ethnic/racial background as those societies are inherently more stable. Traditionally multi cultural societies fail unless they are a very small trading zone in a much larger homogeneous society and even then those cities have issues.

[–]xy0 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I wish voat had better users, more activity. But then again, here i am.

[–]antikarma98 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

I spent five minutes at Voat today, because I'm ready for a workable alternative to Reddit. Five minutes was about all I could stand.

I've been on Saidit for several hours. Seems generally well-thought out. Thank you for your work, OP.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Also check out Prismo. It's an attempt to re-implement the thing from scratch, decentralised. Saidit's more functional, but it'll take more work to make it decentralised.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)



There's a lot of Prismo's.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sorry; I just assume that everybody has these things. I mean this prismo (demo site).

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Very exciting. If I were a Redditor I'd abandon SaidIt. But I'm a truther and that's why I came here.

/u/magnora7 and /u/d3rr should check out the Prismo thing. Could be the/a thing we've all been waiting for.

[–]d3rr 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've been keeping an eye on Prismo for sure, federated not blockchain. There's also a reddit clone running on EOS but I can't think of the name right now.

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to hear it! I find voat increasingly repulsive as well and information should be free to everyone without having to wade through pages and pages of blind hate

[–]Troll 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Former coontown mod here.

For a little backstory, I tried to manage the flood of our userbase into voat but the other moderators (being typical WN fucks) wanted their own fiefdom. Now they're a large reason why voat is complete shit.

The admins never responded to my PMs, either -- making it partially their fault.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

wanted their own fiefdom

Yeah THIS is the real problem. It's such a mono-culture, and it squeezes out all alternative viewpoints.

The admins never responded to my PMs, either -- making it partially their fault.


[–]Troll 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Were you a fan of physical_removal? I see there's a saidit for that, was a mod there too. I got 1.5 million hits to that subreddit in two days for calling Heifer Heyer's death "ethical."

While it is clear that Fields acted out of fear, and his court was a sham, even if he did intend to do what he did it wasn't immoral in the slightest. My family in Europe were oppressed by communists, it's no different than a Jew calling a skinhead nazi getting run over ethical.

[–]Jesus 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

Probably bots and shills.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Perhaps. But either way if the foxes run the henhouse, then what's the point? It's just as compromised as reddit, but in an entirely different way. Reddit is suffering from top-down institutional decay and censorship, whereas voat has a serious culture problem, bots or not

[–]four_leaf_tayback 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I wouldn't need much of a budget or more than a handful of people to cause a "culture problem" though js. Am I incorrect assuming that a disproportionate amount of neonazi types lack access and ability to spout their nonsense esp on a place like voat? finding out about voats existence for the most part requires putting in a good amount of time on reddit no?

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I wouldn't need much of a budget or more than a handful of people to cause a "culture problem" though js.

I know what you mean, but it depends on how good our defenses are. And we many layers of good defenses. And we also have the benefit of seeing what happened to voat, so we can learn from their mistakes.

Another good thing we have going for us, is we can tell trolls to go to voat if they want to shitpost and roleplay as neo-nazis. Voat is like a magnet that draws away the people we don't really want on saidit. It's more the environment they want anyway. Then the truth-seeking people that aren't shitposters then can have saidit :)

[–]four_leaf_tayback 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

perhaps your many layers of good defenses are good evidence of many things

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's mostly preparatory, but I don't doubt that eventually we'll use all the various defenses and probably have to invent a few more.

[–]four_leaf_tayback 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

sounds ominous. feels like the matrix. ;)

[–]useless_aether 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

the fps effect of the video is working its 'magic' on the would be copycats

like a reddit commenter wrote, its like the hardcore henry movie. thanks hollywood.

[–]magnora7[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I was thinking it's interesting how the violence 99% of people have viewed in their lives is roughly accurate but fictional violence. So when we're exposed to videos of real violence, which our media normally hides from us, then it "feels" like it's fictional while watching it, because that's what we're used to. It's a weird effect. It's like the opposite of the uncanny valley.

[–]four_leaf_tayback 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

God I love the art of mis and disinfo. Mankind's crown jewel achievement hands down.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah but it's only going to work for so long, once people know the tricks they don't work nearly as well. Humanity is just a little ignorant about this new field, but that won't last forever. (thankfully)

[–]Fruitsi 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm so glad the Saidit is actually sane. When I found out about this site I was so worried it would end up like Voat. Glad to see it's (mostly) free of the crazies.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to hear. Yeah there will always be some crazies, but we're trying our best to keep things useful for a normal person instead of hyper-polarized all the time like many other social media sites that become echo-chambers

[–]StalwartJames 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

"White genocide."

He shot up a mosque.

Sounds like a hero to me. /s

[–]MartinTimothy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)


I call bullsh*t.

[–]magnora7[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

Bullshit on what, specifically? Many here are pretty much in agreement that it seems agencies had something to do with it. But it's also pretty clear 49 people died by the video.

And why are you posting this on a thread about voat instead of the many other threads about the event itself?

You just kind of spew stuff, I wish you'd take more time to carefully craft actual arguments instead of dumping 5 hours worth of video links without any explanation or context. Quality is better than quantity, my friend. It kind of looks like you just did a youtube search for some keywords and then copy-pasted all the video links in to a comment. I wonder if you've even watched any of them...

[–]MartinTimothy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Here's a bit more .. around here we "cast truth at falsehood" in accord with the instruction in the Koran.

[–]magnora7[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Okay, you just copy-pasted another huge list of links from youtube and didn't address any of my questions.

You can't just youtube search 20 videos that match your terms you want, and call it a day.

Let's hear what YOU have to say, rather than what those people have to say.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think he must be a functional autistic person with occasional troll tendencies. Or an A.I.

[–]MartinTimothy 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

I have been up front for quite some time that the 911 conspiracy encompassing the Jews who did it, with the entire membership of the FBI and the CIA, and every member of both houses of the US Congress and all members of successive Presidential administrations with their mates in the MSM, be brought to arrest, trial and execution.

With the entire Australian policing, political and news dissemination hierarchies, for similarly spurning the evidence and allowing the Celebrating Jews of 911 and the Mossad cell in Brisbane that spawned them safe passage .. it looks like a full book of exes in NZ for countenancing this fiasco as well.

[–]magnora7[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

So you give a completely unrelated answer, that is still copy-paste? You seem extremely unable to follow the pyramid of debate. My patience is wearing extremely thin with you, MartinTimothy, as I'm sure many other users feel. I've given you so many chances to act like a normal person, but all you can ever produce is off-topic copypasta and lists of links. Like for months now. I'm not sure saidit needs you around tbh

[–]Stoner 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

While I'm eternally grateful for Saidit and all the work you and @derr have done, this is why I currently don't believe Saidit will make it any further than Voat.

You're basically relying on words and good arguments to keep the assholes out, and as someone who sometimes is a bit of an asshole I KNOW that's not enough

What happens when there's 10 Timothy's and 50 outta 50 to posts are straight up shilled spam posts? What will you do when people spams extreme right wing stuff instead of Timothy's relatively tame stuff? What happens if Saidit becomes a thing instead of an alternative and corporate and government shills starts moving in?

By removing the down vote you've taken away the community's possibility of saying "We don't accept this shit" and by using even less than strong language you're not exactly a deterrent to assholes. The only thing currently protecting Saidit from becoming Voat is simply the low user number.

Please device a strategy so I belive in the future of Saidit and can start to invite my friends. 🤗

[–]magnora7[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What happens when there's 10 Timothy's and 50 outta 50 to posts are straight up shilled spam posts?

Timothy is about to be cut out, I literally just confronted him a few hours ago about being unable to follow the pyramid of debate and called him out, the wheels are in motion. I am nearly ready to ban. I have been being extra-lenient because the community is small, so we have been careful to both retain our fledgling userbase while also not alienating anyone early on who then talks shit about saidit constantly for months on end afterward. I banned this one guy TheTanster because he was spamming his blog over and over and over with pretty dumb articles to boot. I let him do it for a month, but after a few warnings finally banned him site-wide for spamming. 1 hour later, I unbanned him because I felt maybe it was unjustified. He complained about that in a lying way very visibly on reddit for months, really soiling people's first image of saidit for many people because people believed him and he made a lot of noise. Every time I'd post about saidit on reddit, he would come out of the wookwork somehow, with his sob story about how his free speech was banned on saidit, and I'd have to explain to everyone how he's actually not banned anymore, and it was 4 months ago, and how he was spamming his blog, and yadda yadda. Like 20 different times. It was stupid.

Now... here's the thing. If saidit had 20,000 users, I'd have zero problem banning and ignoring people like this guy. But at the time, we had about 500 users, maybe 10-20 regularly active, and our main weak spot was people not knowing about us, and he was really throwing a wrench in to that by constantly spreading that we censored him.

I can guarantee you timothy is going to do the same after banning. It's a weapon against saidit, I see it coming a mile away. I am waiting until we have enough growth to make a move that might hurt us, to make sure our growth is safe. But because of that traffic we had today, I was comfortable confronting him and will move to ban him, especially if there is community support like you just showed.

The more of a community saidit has, the easier it will be for the good word about saidit to exceed the bad, but I didn't want to have to do tons of narrative management about saidit on reddit early on while the site was barely going... just because of some loudmouth jerks.

We have to regularly weed the garden, not let it build up. But hopefully now you see why I've been dragging my feet about banning anyone at all in the early stages of saidit. It's a tactical move, because one of our main attractions is our free speech and we don't want to jeopardize that image to potential new users in any way. But once we are stable and large enough (which is quickly approaching, if not already) I won't need to hold back quite as much on the obviously unhelpful users, and we won't need to fear them publicly maligning us as much because we'll have enough good word of mouth to balance out their loud complaining about how their free speech was censored.

You know what I mean?

What happens if Saidit becomes a thing instead of an alternative and corporate and government shills starts moving in?

I'm pretty sure they're already here in some small number

By removing the down vote you've taken away the community's possibility of saying "We don't accept this shit"

Yes, but ignoring things is just as useful, perhaps even more so. The upvote/downvote battles are not healthy for the community and I think increases the toxicity and the us vs them mentality. Ignoring something is the same as downvoting it, and the fun vote helps separate out the meme content, when the all the jokes and memes start arriving in the coming years. So the serious content can still be honed in on (with the 'insightful' tab on the main page that we built)

not exactly a deterrent to assholes.

Assholes aren't usually dissuaded by downvotes though, that's what makes them assholes. Being ignored is almost worse than downvotes for many attention-seekers.

So there's my explanation for why things are the way they are on saidit. I hope you find it at least somewhat reasonable, because I've spent a LOT of time thinking about what's best for saidit over the last 2 years. And I am enjoying the feedback because you bring up perfectly valid points.

I also want to point out we've banned about 3 people for trying to basically take over saidit in various ways. So it's not that we've never banned anyone, just not yet for a pyramid of debate violation, but that's the next layer now that saidit is growing big.

[–]Stoner 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I understand the choices you've made for Saidit, and agree with most of them.

The issue with a growing userbase is twofold, yes Saidit needs active users but not redditors that accept the current reddit paradigm - How can you know they won't try to make Saidit more like reddit and start campaigning for banning unsavoury opinions?

Also, If a person is so prone to groupthink that they won't even explore the alternative because the group narrative is that it's objectively evil... Do you really want them as users?

You have some very good points on why "you've been dragging your feet", and I think this is the core disagreement between us; I'd rather have a small group of regulars that posts interesting stuff rather than a large group of people with a higher total of regular users with interesting stuff.

It doesn't really matter, it seems Saidit is about to change it's policy regarding spammers and asses and that's what I want so I'm happy.

Yes, but ignoring things is just as useful, perhaps even more so. The upvote/downvote battles are not healthy for the community and I think increases the toxicity and the us vs them mentality.

But I'm here to get away from "them", the people that spew nonsensical hate in the comments and the people that seek out moderating positions to abuse the power. By creating Saidit you guys have quite directly stated that you/we aren't one of "them" and that "their" platforms doesn't suit you...

Assholes aren't usually dissuaded by downvotes though, that's what makes them assholes. Being ignored is almost worse than downvotes for many attention-seekers.

True, but it strips them of visibility. Again you're counting on everyone to do the proper thing to combat bullshit comments and posts but I don't believe that's going to happen. I think people will use the only tool they have to show their disgust and thus reply with comments and presto, you've got a flamewar going.

So there's my explanation for why things are the way they are on saidit. I hope you find it at least somewhat reasonable

Most of your arguments are very reasonable.

I also want to point out we've banned about 3 people for trying to basically take over saidit in various ways.

It's a start, but this is still a site where the admins gets into a "no u"-level debate with copypasta spammers to protect the site reputation. I don't want saidit to get the reputation that Voat has, a site with very hands off admins who rather have rampant unfunded radical extremists on the site than a reputation of less than absolute freedom of speech.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How can you know they won't try to make Saidit more like reddit and start campaigning for banning unsavoury opinions?

They will, and they have.

I'd rather have a small group of regulars that posts interesting stuff rather than a large group of people with a higher total of regular users with interesting stuff.

Well it's not between those two things, if that was the choice then I'd agree with you. And now that we have a lot more users, that might be the choice. But 6 months ago the choice was "have a small but interesting userbase, or have an even smaller but interesting userbase with some super pissed off people who are constantly maligning saidit on reddit".

But anyway, this is changing as we grow. We won't need to worry about this threat anymore once we reach a certain size, so I won't need to hesitate to "take out the trash".

you've got a flamewar going.

Flamewars break the pyramid of debate rule, so that's already covered.

I don't want saidit to get the reputation that Voat has

I've literally spent hundreds and hundreds of hours making this site because of how much I hate how voat has turned out. Trust me, I'm not going to let it happen.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If the discourse is civil and respectful, those with groupthink or unsavoury opinions can argue their points to those who care to engage.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've actually got an idea for an alternative to banning, but I'd need some help (read: insider knowledge of the database structure all of the things – actually, I couldn't do it myself e35c5f6a3045e170620240808123ca8b9ca5c38c) to implement it. It'd help avoid the PR issue (without us having to propaganda people / suppress writings, which aren't options).

I'm being deliberately vague here, but I won't be secretive about this in general. If it becomes a thing, the people of Saidit will know about it.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What, remove all their points? No need to be vague really. You can PM me with your idea if you wish.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

[–]Jesus 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

MartinTimothy seems like a shill. He had close to a hundred alt-accounts on reddit spamming everything everywhere. His schtick is Jews and their crimes with broad generalizations but he literally copy and pastes to flood comment sections and /s/All. Shills use this tactic all the time. It's to muddy the waters and disengage a userbase. You post long winded posts or links mixed with truth, lies and unrelated material. Voat shills did this on v/pizzagate all the time. Cryptome database has documrnts on this very tactic.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The down vote can also be abused. I don't think it's critical to maintaining a classy joint.

IMHO the current problem is not about asstrolls. We need to discuss and develop policy that protects the future of SaidIt. There will be more asstrolls and the policy should deflect them.

InfoGalactic has a virtually useless GalacticTribunal to resolve problems. It's almost useless in part because there are no problems to speak of, and because there's no community to speak of, nor responsive administration.

Some kind of roundtable court might actually work on SaidIt.

Wikipedia transparently does their admin gang ups to censor people, but the folks who get to be admins play the game.

I'd prefer to have clear guidelines than a jury of my peers.

[–]four_leaf_tayback 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

How much of that kinda shit do you think is real though? Not that there aren't legit hardcore hateful people and super callous shit posters there - but the hidden hand of the boogeyman market is a real thing as you point out.

What do you think the demographic breakdown looks like? Real. Shitpost. Shill. Other?

Full disclosure: it's been a while since I've been to voat and when I was there it was very cursory. However, after tensions in Kashmir flared up I hit the chans up pretty hard and my gut screams that most of the /pol/ bigotry is far from organic. Not the first time my gut has said that about the chans btw.

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

30% real, 30% trolls who probably actually believe it on some level but just want to see what happens, and 40% bots would be my guess.

They kind of just let voat go to pasture, culturally speaking

[–]four_leaf_tayback 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

When you say bots you mean keyboard warriors right?

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

By bots I mean people hired to post talking points and certain memes, as well as actual computer software generated comments. It's easy to do with hyper-racist comments as they're rarely complicated

Keyboard warriors are part of the 30% real people, who really believe this shit 100% deep down

[–]four_leaf_tayback 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

gotcha and that's what I hoped you meant by bots but shills or another humanized synonym is more apt. when I said keyboard warriors I meant MIC et al people btw.

[–]alvin_row 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

voat is such a shithole

[–]Maple 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

if voat is so anti-censorship why dont they have a replacement for socccerstreams up and running?

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is soccerstreams?

[–]Vulphere 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

A sub for soccer match streaming which banished by Reddit times ago.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

propaganda of the deed

[–]SaidtItFirst 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just born today!

Reddit is too far to the left, Voat is way to far to the right.

I recommend to keep out propaganda machinery that political posts are not allowed.

We're all sick of the censorship on Reddit, but if the racists rabid dogs of Voat come here they'll ruin it. It's up to us to keep SaidIt free from extremists and shills.

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right on! Welcome

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If the guy had massacred all the politicians I might have been more inclined to call him a hero - but not for civilians, as politically powerless as he is claimed to have been.

[–]Snow 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hate religions...but those people on voat are somehow mentals.