Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum.

submitted by JasonCarswell from self.PhoenixForum

Thumbnail, temporary stand-in "branding" (see the 1st post for more about this).

 

This comment by /u/JasonCarswell is mirrored here for a more focused discourse.

you dont want the masses.

We need to liberate the masses from their brainwashing.

I can't go to the hardware store without them insisting I wear a mask. I haven't been back yet to see what happens when I refuse.

We need the masses to not support the establishment that is crushing them - and us.

the problem with the saidit community, as small as it is, is that it is not being managed effectively.

I will NEVER deny that until M7 starts evolving in a serious way.

if this community were managed better, it would have already grown to many thousands of active users.

LOL. You just said it wasn't about the masses. M7 also wants this place to grow. I asked him to promise he'd never sell out, but he wouldn't. Yet, he's managed to avoid ads and such. Could be a loooong con psyop for all I know.

IMO, quality is much more important than quantity.

 

This comment by /u/SubliminalCriminal is mirrored here.

when i suggest that you dont want the masses, i am trying to suggest that you not focus on the masses, ie, dont try to acquire all of the marketplace, but instead focus on the few users that you do have... draw up a profile on each of them.. as though you are a personality profiler for the fbi that is hunting a serial killer.. draw up a profile on each of your current users.. focus on what do they want? focus on are they the kind of person that you want in your forum..

maybe my suggestions about quarantining people was only a very basic and rough draft...

i play a lot, but i am a very high level thinker.. it is too bad that i dont have the grammar and writing skills to go along with my ability to think tank..

i am interested to design and build something that is new... it is NOT my interest to design and build a community that is simply a redesign of twitter or reddit or facebook..

you must define the problem first, then invert the problem to make a solution, then put the solution into action..

i read once that anger is sometimes the result of trying to solve a problem before you have come up with a good solution.

you will become frustrated, your users will become frustrated, if you present them with a website that is not actually a complete and well rounded solution to their needs and their problems.

this is not a small task.

 

This comment by /u/JasonCarswell is mirrored here.

I agree, not to focus on the masses, but they need to be considered. Certainly not for vast acquisitions, especially in a decentralized world of many diverse options and alternatives at the feet of the giant monopolies, but for many other factors - including defense against them, big and small.

I missed your quarantine thing. I'll say what I've said countless times before: Quarantine the sick and weak, anything else is tyranny.

I didn't really expect people to appreciate the /s/PhoenixForum idea so much so soon, especially without MetaVote™. I didn't even prepare the sub's sidebox. I mention this because in addition to MetaVote™ there are 6 more areas I believe are critical to making a decent next-gen forum. One is coding. One is branding, public relations, inviting, and amassing people - least of our worries now. One is Libre-Festos (for lack of a better name).

A forum-wide survey about what people want in their imaginary dream forum of the future may be in order. In turn we can also start drafting up some manifestos to lay the groundwork for the goals and objectives of many things, not just forums or software design. Just at the Creative Commons has several versions to choose from I would hope we can lay down some fundamental manifestos (for lack of a better word I'll keep using it) like the Consitution to always refer back to.

Yes in part. Identify the problem, conceive a solution, pessimistically poke holes in it, optimistically build around the holes, pessimism, optimism, pessimism, optimism, on repeat until all that remains is the logical framework to build in reality.

i read once that anger is sometimes the result of trying to solve a problem before you have come up with a good solution.

Good quote/concept.

I'm never going to present a website. I'll present ideas and they can help develop them further, and together we can improve the animated demo presentation until we feel its worth promoting far and wide to invite the world to actually build the open code for it. Most people won't care about a demo video - but coders might. Especially if the 6 related foundations for a free and fair forum are in place.

We really should move this conversation to the /s/PhoenixForum, whether you wish to code or support it or not. I'm actually not expecting to have my dream forum built, but I honestly believe that anyone may benefit from expressing ideas there, big or small, that may one day make it into reality somehow.

 

This comment by /u/SubliminalCriminal is mirrored here.

I missed your quarantine thing.

a new user quarantine system needs to be implemented that perhaps auto shadow bans or auto hides all posts so that only the new user and certain admins can see it... those admins would have the ability to leave that account shadow banned or hidden forever or to approve it for release from quarantine..

this would stop 99% of spam and other bullshit.

maybe you could leave new accounts in the quarantine status for maybe two weeks, spammers and other trolls would find that to be too tedious to fk with and they would move on to easier forums to fk with.

 

This is my (/u/JasonCarswell) original response:

Pros/cons as to whether segregation would actually improve things. It's a lot of work too.

I have 2 ideas that are simple and low maintenance that could improve things, simply, I think.

1 User Info

I'm replying to a comment that start with:

SubliminalCriminal 2 insightful - 1 fun - 5 hours ago

There's more than enough room for more information there:

saiditter for 7 days | 161 post karma | 274 comment karma

You are insightful so I've added you to my /s/Friends (easily removed) so obviously not all new users are trolls - or you may be playing the long confidence game. Only you know. Actions speak more truth and trust is earned. We must all remain skeptical and call out bullshit, including from me - or even M7. (Even if it is his site and he's the ultimate ruler of this universe, it's still our community, and he clearly wants growth so he also needs to behave, not that that's much of an issue.)

2 User Distinction

IMO instead of quarantines and segregation of users with different privileges, I think everyone should have the same access and privileges - with earned indicators of status, a simple distinguishing mark, nothing else. It could be a badge, comments outlined in colour, and/or colour the user names themselves. Perhaps the #1 User Info mentioned above could be colour coded.

Status User Note Colour
Level 0 Banned Users STABs* Grey
Level 1 New & Rare Users skeptical caution Red
Level 2 Active Users with a certain level of points Yellow
Level 3 Distinguished Users trusted selections by M7 only Green
Level 4 Admins blue checks Blue
Level 5 magnora7 site owner White

* STABs is a new term I came up with the other day for Shills, Trolls And Bots, and I hope to popularize it.

None of these levels make you immune from skepticism or criticism or change of status, they just help guide first impressions. Even those "trusted" may fall from grace.

This seems like an obvious nobrainer and in this way only the spam and obvious asstrolls need be censored and removed. Everyone will immediately see and know to have skepticism and/or biases towards any trolls with outrageous accusations.

Only /u/magnora7 and/or /u/d3rr could say how easy or difficult it would be to code and implement either of these systems.

 

 

This conversation may continue in the comments.

 

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[–]zyxzevn 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I think that you want to build some kind of trust-network.
Which is a difficult problem, because even those can infiltrated.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think it's that difficult.

As long as there is skepticism and anticipation of infiltration with are checks and balances lead by rational minds and open discourse I have faith the trust-network should be possible. More importantly, critically IMO, is that branches of trust be allowed to grow. If people disagree, that's fine and perhaps reason for distrust - but it doesn't mean anyone is wrong. Further, you may end up with a minority of legit voices against armies of STABs. Sure, echo-chambers may be formed, but with some algorithm tuning some overlapping should be encouraged to perpetuate ongoing reassessment processes.

[–]zyxzevn 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I think that building a trust network is a continuous process.
But what is trust exactly?

First you need a network for people that are contributing positively to the forum.
This can change when someone's mood changes due to an emotional/traumatic event.
And how do you treat people that are interested, but mainly like to troll?
(Or instead of trolling want to push their weird opinion)

Then there is another kind of trust: Trust that we can communicate.
People can be trusted in one area, but not in another.
Usually because they are badly informed by propaganda. (Like Qanon or CNN)
Which makes communication worthless.
On the other hand they can have different real-world experiences that are different from what I know.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think that building a trust network is a continuous process.

Agreed!

But what is trust exactly?

Whatever you want it to be. It can even be meaningless to you. But if, via something like MetaVotes™, you create a data matrix with more qualitative information than just like/dislike then you can curate your own content.

If a hundred STABs are posting shit then you filter out most of them but keep rating their content that you do see in order to keep reassessing all the content. Also, with this filtration system the owner/admin of the decentralized instance can take out the trash as it becomes too much, ideally keeping the good ranked content but banning the bad actors - ideally all transparently if anyone needs to dig up the dirt. The ONLY content IMO that needs to be permanently deleted should be child porn. All words are harmless, but in combination and with intent some exceptions may apply, such as advocating violence which obviously must be hidden AND saved in case it ever needs to go to court - or to justify someone getting banned.

I know all of this requires serious coding, and I really doubt much or any of this could be SaidIt upgrades, which is why in part starting fresh may be better. Perhaps with an extant possibly decentralize forum with a wide support base of coders. The communities can and will come later, but as Elon Musk said something to the effect of, paraphrased: We can't just make a competitive product and expect to go from nothing to thriving - we need to make a vastly superior product to get people to migrate to us.

First you need a network for people that are contributing positively to the forum.

A separate network? Why? Just ignore the asstrolls. They may even inspire better defenses. Take in ALL good ideas regardless of source.

Or do you mean, Level 3 | Distinguished Users | trusted selections by M7 only | Green?

This can change when someone's mood changes due to an emotional/traumatic event.

Sure, some people slip up or slide downward. I remove people from my /s/Friends list and remember them better for it. There's no reason M7 could un-Green someone. They'd have to earn it back doubly, if they even cared. Most worthy people don't desire authority, IMO.

And how do you treat people that are interested, but mainly like to troll?

Let them troll until they prove themselves ban-worthy. TBD by the admin of the decentralized instance.

(Or instead of trolling want to push their weird opinion)

Unless the opinion is illegal, or if an admin is running a tribal site (conservative, liberal, libertarian, religious, etc etc etc) then there's no need to limit, censor, or ban. If people don't like it they can express it in their MetaVotes™. Also, IMO the MetaVotes™ algorithms should be 100% transparent so people don't have issues with how things are run. Further, I would LOVE for users, in preferences, to be able to program their own MetaVote™ "expressions" (a CGI term we used in Maya 3D software for equations that controlled things like rigs, dynamics, animation, shaders, etc - I did much of this animation with nulls, expressions, constraints, and f-curves). Obviously expressions would be expert level, above some advanced options, and much more than just basic subscribing to topics. IMO everything should have 3 or 4 modes, the 4th being plug and play default.

Then there is another kind of trust: Trust that we can communicate. People can be trusted in one area, but not in another. Usually because they are badly informed by propaganda. (Like Qanon or CNN) Which makes communication worthless. On the other hand they can have different real-world experiences that are different from what I know.

I think I understand what you mean here. MetaVote™ would provide much more qualitative data about the content than just like/dislike. And even if people are inauthentic, brainwashed, and/or otherwise limited their opinions will still be measured and the results will be MUCH more revealing. For example: On Amazon you can have a book that gets a bunch of 5 stars and even more 0 stars with virtually nothing between. Either the content is divisive (tribal, controversial, etc.) or there are trolls trying to make it unpopular - or maybe it's just good for some not for others. Knowing this gives us MUCH more information that a Reddit post with +2 (from +200 likes and -198 dislikes).

[–]fschmidt 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We need to liberate the masses from their brainwashing.

No we don't. Just move away from the masses and watch them destroy themselves from a distance.

I will NEVER deny that until M7 starts evolving in a serious way.

Won't happen.

I agree, not to focus on the masses, but they need to be considered.

Yes, a good forum platform should appeal to the masses on their own terms. Just don't expect them to become enlightened.

Pros/cons as to whether segregation would actually improve things.

Just give forum owners whatever tools they want to deal with spam, and leave it up them which tools they use. In other words, this should not be decided at the platform level. Personally I don't need any tools since removing spam from my forums is easy enough.

[–]icebong 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah i like this level system, like in odysee.com, they just implemented this, and its easy to see how big or trust worthy and account is easily.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'd say great minds, but it's kinda obvious, not very complex, and importantly the hierarchy is very horizontal.