all 36 comments

[–]IkeConn 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Flabby neck beard or muscular jock? What do you think girls want to fuck?

Fat nerd girl or playboy centerfold? What would you want to fuck?

It's not rocket science. It's lust.

[–]Caamib_ 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Flabby neckbeard has some hobbies and ideas that would repel almost all modern Western women. Being a muscular jock is about more than just looks - it's his status and swagger that attracts women more than mere looks.

You're also greatly underestimating how sought after fat nerd girls are. Millions of those flabby neckbeards want just her, not a "Stacy".

[–]IkeConn 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Any flabby neckbeard that is fucking a fatty is not an incel.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Fat nerd girl or playboy centerfold? What would you want to fuck?

Well sure dude, but I don't think its that simple with a relationship or a marriage. For example, Ill take a 7 who is smart and has a great personality over a 10 who is a vegan social justice warrior with an IQ of 90 if I have to live with em

[–]IkeConn 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I did say "fuck" so that is kind of specific and I understand exactly where you are coming from. The trick is to find a Stacey that doesn't realize she is a Stacey and marry her.

[–]sneako 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

read juggernaut law brocel

[–]sneako 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

the "best genes" argument normalfags use is complete bullshit. roasties will choose a drugged out gangbanger nigger over a 150 iq genius who can solve climate change if that was real and who could make intergalactic space flight possible. women are animals who should be locked in cages and inseminated with high iq brain genius DNA in a video game and the ones that don't play ball get sent to Saudi Arabia to become human toilets for wealthy oil sheikhs. fuck whites for giving these worthless cunts rights. can't wait until china takes over so the world can be run by men again ffs. if a fed is reading this comment I'm joking and will enlist and donate my paycheck to a woman's charity in the near future. also I'll head down to the nearest hood I see and ask a nigger to fuck my wife. USA!

[–]Airbus320 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

u/Hongkongphooey is a cuck don't mind him

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

the "best genes" argument normalfags use is complete bullshit. roasties will choose a drugged out gangbanger nigger over a 150 iq genius who can solve climate change

Ok, but thats not the argument I was making. I simply said we need some mechanism of sexual selection, not that I thought the current one was the best.

women are animals who should be locked in cages and inseminated with high iq brain genius DNA

That is a sexual selection mechanism also, but it does answer the question I was asking about what the alternatives could be, so thank you. This is more or less the industrial farming model - forced insemination of all the females by elite males, so while your suggestion is certainly edgy, I think it is also worth discussing on its merits as this is already widely practiced in some ways

[–][deleted]  (18 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

    Well I didn't say I thought all the hoes should be fucking Chad or selecting solely on looks, simply that some sort of selection mechanism is generally desirable.

    I don't think you are wrong about sexual selection being skewed too much towards physical traits and ignoring other important qualities that you point out, although I am not convinced that only women are the ones doing this. Many men think they should be dating supermodels or Kim Kardashian, and are also not taking into account any of these other qualities.

    Personally I think advertising has played a role in selling particular images to people and is a major reason why our society is fucked up in this way, but what I am really curious about is what you think the solution to this problem is? Is Chad reproducing with his looksmatch as you put it, and creating some sort of like-quality matching caste the solution? Would there be a different class of 'incel' that actually deserved this non-reproductive status? I am genuinely interested in your ideas about what a better system might look like

    [–][deleted]  (14 children)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

      And jesus fucking christ, don't use ''genuinely'' ever again, it's cringe and it actually makes you sound disingenuous.

      That wasn't my intent. My intent was to signal that I'm not trying to argue in bad faith to pick a fight or do 'cope memes', but trying to get you to ELI5 because I'm not fully understanding the system you are proposing

      You say women should ideally be choosing, but based on different attributes. I don't disagree, how could a society reinforce the kind of values where this would be possible?

      But it's in women's nature to be retarded and evil, so what are they gonna do?

      You don't think modern media perpetuating this idea in magazines, television and social media is part of the problem at all? It's purely a matter women being evil? Idk about this, but I don't suppose it matters in terms of understanding the solution.

      Average and unatractive men are only used for their money, where they end in dead bedroom relatioships and eventually divorce-raped, better be an incel/volcel than end up like that.

      Yes, I think this happens a lot.

      The real solution is absolute separatism. Plenty of men are capable of stop being simps that hyperidealize women; women on the other hand are incapable of stop being evil selfish dishonest narcissists.

      I'm not 100% sure what separatism means in this context, I have only heard this used racially or referring to political boundaries, so I'd have to infer your meaning here. Are you saying that society should go back to more traditional gender roles? How do you think this would change the dynamics of sexual selection? Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

      Plenty of men are capable of stop being simps that hyperidealize women; women on the other hand are incapable of stop being evil selfish dishonest narcissists.

      So men need to also change their thinking and be more critical of women that have bad motives. I'm not sure how this ties into the women making the selctions exactly. I understand some of the critiques you are making and think they are valid, but still not fully able to picture what you are saying this theoretical better system looks like. I do however appreciate you taking the time to engage with me and attempt to explain it

      [–][deleted]  (12 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

        You don't think modern media perpetuating this idea in magazines, television and social media is part of the problem at all?

        Nope, that's a retarded cope. And if women get ''brainwashed'' by media that just shows how retarded they are.

        How is this 'retarded' or 'a cope'. It is pretty obvious the advertising and media encourages this. It's also obvious that the vast majority of the population of both sexes is highly brainwashed by the media. Social Media 'influencer' is a real job now, and they are selling exactly what you hate to impressionable young people. I wasn't suggesting the media was even the primary factor, merely questioning if there might be multiple factors involved.

        If you are going to resort to name calling and insults without even attempting to address a relevant point I'm not sure why I'm talking to you about this. I've tried to be very civil, but you seem either uninterested or incapable of having such a conversation

        [–][deleted]  (10 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

          All of the circles about questioning the status quo are made and supported by men.

          I wouldn't be so sure. Most of these circles are online behind anonymous usernames, and usually the only people who care enough to announce their gender are transtrenders. And for some reason we all assume everyone is male by default.

          [–][deleted]  (8 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

            That's assuming everyone is a narcissist and blatantly wants double standards as long as they're on the good side of it. I've always been surprised at how many people I know online turned out to be women, because there's this subconscious idea that women don't exist on the internet. It's seriously impossible to tell the difference, even when someone acts very stereotypical of one gender you're often wrong. I don't see them proclaiming it loud and clear, the only people I see doing that are transtrenders. Because it doesn't matter.

            Most people do want unfair special treatment, but being a woman doesn't get you the same privileges online as in real life. Being behind a screen cuts off both the Women Are Wonderful Effect and the sexual appeal to men that makes them simp. Additionally, strength becomes irrelevant, so women can't use the excuse of being "weak" to make men do everything for them either.

            [–]Airbus320 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

            Single motherhood is epidemic in western countries

            [–]Mazurro 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

            No one cares how it works as it fluctuates naturally. What we incels are against is the lies, that it isn't working as we clearly see it does. Mating selection is based on attraction and only good looking guys succeed, that's all. We won't change this system, we just want not to be lied.

            [–]greybeard 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            We won't change this system, we just want not to be lied.

            Speak for yourself. I would prefer a return to the times before the sexual revolution. It had less harems and more ways for ugly men to compensate with hard work

            [–]Mazurro 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            I would prefer too, but you know it's impossible. Be logical.

            [–]greybeard 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            you're right

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Mating selection is based on attraction and only good looking guys succeed, that's all. We won't change this system, we just want not to be lied.

            I think mating selection is definitely skewed too much towards looks, you aren't wrong. I would add that I think money is another factor though, theres some pretty ugly rich dudes getting laid out there. Also, I think the term 'gold digger' likely exists because women marrying for money is a real phenomenon as well

            [–]Mazurro 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            I would add that I think money is another factor though

            Not anymore unless you are multimilionaire. Mediocore life isn't a benefit anymore, being rich = being milionaire nothing else.

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Not anymore unless you are multimilionaire. Mediocore life isn't a benefit anymore, being rich = being milionaire nothing else.

            Yeah I think you are right, this only applies to the very wealthy, and not middle class breadwinners

            [–]Caamib_ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Mating selection is based on attraction and only good looking guys succeed, that's all.

            Have you really never seen an ugly thug who has success with women or a good looking social outsider ? Never ever?

            [–]Mazurro 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

            Comparable to my looks? Never. Not even joking.

            [–]JosephDeMaistre 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

            OK, an ugly thug can succeed if he's really sufficiently notorious serial killer. Say, Jeffrey Dahmer and other notorious serial killers who receive love letters in prison. Hybristophilia exists and can be seen as an extreme in the bad boy attraction spectrum. What you've been preaching for at least a decade, however, is a grotesque parody of female selection, claiming that only men with the absolutely worst personality can be sexually successful. This is just a delusion and pathetic cope for you. Also you're quite openly a disgusting evil shitbag yourself, so why don't these women want you, contrary to your own theory?

            [–]Caamib_ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Thanks, I will read this and see if it answers some of my questions

            [–]Caamib_ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Just so you know, this is an anti-lookist, reactionary view.

            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Well, it is pretty reactionary, but you did make both your identification of problems and proposed solutions very clear. I think sexual selection is an important and interesting topic, and it seems like its kind of taboo to even talk about.

            There is a lot to unpack here, but I'll try to give a little feedback on your piece.

            I think some of the points you make are quite convincing.

            Liberalism and feminism turned women’s preferences from providers to seducers, thus genetically eliminating all decent men through involuntary celibacy.

            Genetic elimination of all decent men is a pretty strong phrase here, but I can't say you are wrong about the change in preferences or that these changes aren't the result of feminist ideology, and I agree that this is not a desirable outcome.

            Seduction is worthless, even harmful for most species, as it does not promote any valuable traits that make the species better.

            You had a good example with the Fisherian runway and the peacock . You've made a strong case, and I don't disagree.

            In connection to nr.2, women’s preference for a type of male changes simply based on a degree of success a type has with most women.

            This one I wasn't sure what you meant. I read this as somewhat tautological. Women tend to prefer the type of men they are demonstrated to prefer? Maybe what you are getting at is that women are trained to prefer the same types of men as their peers, and this perpetuates the problem?

            It is a hard fact that, even if we just take sex into consideration, more men are able to have sex in a monogamous society, even in a monogamous society without prostitution

            Instead they worry about issues like drugs and prostitution, neither of which are condemned in the Old Testament.

            Counterintuitive, but I think you make a strong case for this. You had me worried when you started talking about female chastity, because I have concerns about puritanism as well, but I appreciate the nuanced take you have concerning evangelicals and puritanism

            You have to understand what a woman is. A woman is a relatively simple biological robot whose goal is to produce offspring that will be most optimal from an evolutionary standpoint.

            Isn't that the biological purpose of males also?

            Anyways, like I said, I think you make some good points that I take seriously, although I'd need more convincing before I jumped on board with things like 'women are inherently mean/bad/cruel', I've heard the reverse from feminists enough times, I'd need someone to exhaustively exclude the possibility of other societal mechanisms that might explain some of the cruel behavior we observe. Same with some of your more reactionary prescriptions, but you've definitely given me a better feel for these ideas like I was asking for and given me some things to think about. I appreciate the link and the discussion

            [–]EternalSunset 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Even if you do think that we should have some level of "natural eugenics", it is very hard to make the case that the preferences of females are leading to a net improvement to the genetic quality of the human species. It is well known that women are sexually attracted to negative male traits such aggressiveness and violence (jailed criminals often get many female suitors after being arrested) and repulsed by objectively positive male traits such as high intelligence. Just look at the charts for the worldwide average human IQ levels and how they have been steadily dropping since the sexual revolution in the mid 20th century.

            [–]JosephDeMaistre 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Sexual selection does not lead nowadays to better genes. Good looks are positively correlated with intelligence and health, but only weakly so. There was a study "Human Capital Mediates Natural Selection in Contemporary Humans."

            I'll copy-paste someone's summary: Traits are passed on to children, so the next generation will have more of the traits to the right of the dotted line, and fewer of those to the left. At the top, the traits most rapidly spreading in the next generation are ADHD, smoking, extraversion, high BMI, and large waist circumference. These last two are measures of fatness. Heart disease, depression, Alzheimer's, and schizophrenia are also on the right. To the left are the traits that are being bred out, and at the bottom, being bred out most rapidly, are three measures of intelligence.

            So if intelligence is being bred out most radically, what does it tell about miladies' preferences? :D

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Sexual selection does not lead nowadays to better genes.

            I agree, it probably does not.

            Good looks are positively correlated with intelligence and health, but only weakly so.

            So if intelligence is being bred out most radically,

            But how did you jump from weakly positively correlated, or even uncorrelated, to saying intelligence is radically selected against. You'd need a strong negative correlation to make this case, and according to you there isn't one.

            Also, I'm not sure the health problems you mention are a result of sexual selection rather than a result of Americans having poor diets and exposure to environmental toxins. You say we are selecting for attractiveness and then say we are selecting for obesity, which would seem to contradict your idea about selecting for attractiveness

            [–]JosephDeMaistre 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

            Read what polygenic risk scores mean https://www.genome.gov/Health/Genomics-and-Medicine/Polygenic-risk-scores

            I haven't read the whole document I referred to above yet, but what it treats was genetic propensities to certain traits, and which of said traits are being selected for or against. Whether environment will compensate for something is wholly another matter.

            If individuals with ADHD have constantly higher reproductive success, as the source indicates, this simply means more individuals will likely develop said disorder. I don't remember whether autism was listed in the graph, but anyone knows anyway that autists have very poor reproductive chances these days. Just bringing a comparison between two mental illnesses.

            Also, I wouldn't like to jump into Caamib's territory, but last decades really show intelligence is being selected against. There's a collection of materials here: https://incels.is/threads/irrefutable-proof-of-the-hypergamy-and-why-the-current-mode-of-sexual-selection-is-dysgenic.396281/