Saidit.net - 6/4/2018 - New terms of service updates, ban on vendors

submitted by magnora7 from self.SaidIt

Today we're announcing a change to the terms of service to disallow vendors. We're going to give 5 days for people to adjust to this new rule before we put it in to effect. So on 6/9/2018 there will be no more vendors allowed on saidit, nor any ads for vendor sites, nor any links to vendor sites.

We are making this change for a few reasons:

  1. We have come to realize vendors and vendor subs may very well cause serious legal problems for saidit in the future. We do not want saidit to potentially be shut down, so we are doing this to protect the site. We've put a lot of hard work in to it so we want to protect it.

  2. We built this site for news and discussion, not to be a bazaar of vendor links. It decreases the quality of the site.

  3. This is similar to the no pornography rule, in that it is to protect the website against people posting illegal content that could cause the site to be shut down. We cannot be expected to know the laws for every region and thing sold regarding vending, and we have no real way to ensure that blatantly illegal content isn't being posted and sold.

For these reasons we'll soon be putting the new "no vending" rules in place, and they will begin to be enforced on the 9th. This wasn't a decision we made lightly, because many of the users associated with the vendor activity are very nice people who have helped the site grow, but we have decided it is necessary for us to take this step for saidit to move forward.

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[–]tizmaniandevil 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

but isn't /s/greymarket basically the entire userbase of this site?

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

It's a big chunk, which is why this wasn't an easy decision to make.

[–]wellwellwell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I understand your decision, but know this will likely lead to a major decrease in this sites activity. The mods of greymarket are actively creating an alternative as we speak - I hope you guys the best, as I am aware of the precarious predicament you are in, but realistically speaking I think this will be a major hit on your site.

I do enjoy saidit more than reddit nowadays, so it saddens me to hear this news. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I understand and you're probably right, but d3rr and I believe saidit will recover those user numbers in the long term. This is like ripping off a bandaid, it's not fun and I don't really want to do it, but it's just got to be done or else there might be huge problems down the road. I appreciate the kind words, I wish you all the best too.

[–]wellwellwell 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I honestly agree. If you want a legitimate site, you are gonna eventually have to rid yourselves of anything sketchy. Greymarket vending is about as sketchy as it gets - especially with all of the recent heat it's been receiving. Once again, best of luck.

This sucks to hear, but long-term it is most definitely the right choice. Otherwise saidit would just be a ticking time bomb

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Exactly. I'm glad you get it. If we didn't make this change now, it was just a matter of time until it bites us in the ass

[–]wellwellwell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Very bitter-sweet for me. I want this site to do well, but greymarket was a huge component of that (for me at least).

Seriously, best of luck. I want this place to succeed as much as you do

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you, I can tell you care. I have nothing against greymarket per se, it's just for the longevity of the site from a legal perspective. I'm sure it'll find other corners of the internet to thrive in.

[–]wellwellwell 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Most definitely it will. Longterm this is without a doubt the way to go. Saidit still has a nice path it can follow too - just keep up the good work and it will survive (maybe thrive, even?) once the dust settles

[–]Asshole2Assholes 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (24 children)

Isn't that why this website was created in the first place?

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (23 children)

No, it was created to discuss ideas and news in a way that's dense with quality. Not for people to hawk their often-illegal wares that could get us shut down.

[–]Asshole2Assholes 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Oh, you must be thinking of a different Saidit page. Because GreyMarket doesn't sell illegal wares. Oops.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

There's a reason it's not called WhiteMarket

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Its not called blackmarket though either lol

[–]wellwellwell 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

greymarket is pretty fucking close if you ask me

aka being in the "grey area of the law" and all

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

wrong, not close at all, lol.

disinformation

what the greymarket rly is :)

[–]wellwellwell 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

not trying to argue pedantry, although you're entirely right in that regard. Thanks, was interesting to read.

But look at the actual sub yourself - that shit really doesn't apply to what's going on. Everyone operates under the mask of "not for human consumption" - but we have nothing but vendors, reviews, and people asking for specific drugs/information. The legality of analogues in general is somewhat skewed (although it can be specific depending on the state), so it's kind of like playing with fire. All it takes if for the FDA or DEA to take notice and then saidit goes to shit

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

yea, i have looked at the sub here and there, cause everyone is uncertain, who's legit or not. cause the sub is new, and theres new people, things take awhile to work themselves out and sorted.

the greymarket sub mods couldve eventually worked out who was who, and maybe have a list of known scammers / blackmarket dealers.

[–]wellwellwell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think the problem is regarding the classification of "legitimate" dealers. Like it or not - they are still operating in a very sketchy area of the law. Scamming or not; these dealers operate under a "not for human consumption" defense.

I'm sure you're aware of some US case law (just an assumption but you seem educated enough lmao) - and that really doesn't hold up if the feds want you to go down. The admins are right - allowing this type of content to continue can inadvertently harm them in the future.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

If they 100% adhered to that, then there wouldn't be a problem. But it's literally impossible to keep to that because every region has different drug laws that are always changing, so you kind of have to take people's word on it, it seems. Which leads to a lot of abuse that is more blackmarket claiming to be greymarket. At least that's what I seem to be seeing when I look at that sub.

[–]wellwellwell 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

That's basically what it is. We operate under the whole "not for human consumption" idea, but anyone who looks at that sub for more than 5 minutes will recognize that's clearly not the case. Despite being analogues, the shit that goes on there is definitely illegal and prosecutable.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes exactly. I ignored it for a long time but when I started reading it recently it became apparent what is going on much of the time.

[–]Asshole2Assholes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And a reason it's not called BlackMarket

[–]tizmaniandevil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

just because something you made isn't being used the way you intended isn't a bad thing. having this forum for discussion of legal chemicals makes people safer

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I agree and discussion of chemicals is still allowed. We're only banning vendors and vendor links.

[–]tizmaniandevil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

being able to discuss vendors is what creates the safety though. that way we know which ones are reliable. could you still allow reviews of vendors but ban any advertising?

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

No sorry, vendor vetting should happen on another website. We really don't want any vendor discussion here, because we don't want saidit at all associated with buying/selling drugs

[–]byou2 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Good choice!

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (17 children)

lol, this is a bad move, lol. your basically stepping on peoples necks sayin they hurt quality content, lol.

your censorship decreases the quality of the site, lol.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (16 children)

Well, it's either this or the website gets shut down in a year by the FBI because we're breaking the law. Take your pick. Those basically seem to be the options.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Lol, its not breaking the law, they violate the law. Away with the lies and excuses to sugarcoat censorship. Nobody's done anything wrong, they shouldn't be abused and banned.

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

its not breaking the law, they violate the law.

That's what we thought for a while, which is why we allowed it in the first place. But it turns out that's not true. Just like if illegal porn is on the site, we the admins are held responsible from a legal perspective.

It sucks, but it's why we have to make this change. It's either that or saidit gets put at serious risk as the future approaches.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No, it is true. Just like porn, its not illegal unless there's underage junk in it. How can they call porn illegal? There's porno sites all over the web lol. These days, the Word is just a meaningless label for mudducks to abuse. Just like racism, fake news. Things are just labeled cause they don't want you to do something.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I agree 100%. But I still don't want saidit to be shut down and taken away.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

same, but that doesnt mean you should bend over to blue isis, lol

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

If it were just a potential risk that'd be one thing, but the more I research it it seems like an inevitability we'd get shut down, especially if that's the site's core userbase.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

saidit is still young yet, who's to say GM will still be the core userbase as the site grows and expands.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That was increasingly the direction things were moving given the numbers, but you're right.

[–]DikDikDimbuss 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are you talking about FOSTA? A law that hasn’t been signed yet? The real question is why not a single website on the internet isn’t opposed to this law and is already adhering to it even though the president has yet to sign it.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No the rules holding admins responsible for illegal porn (and other content on what should be a black-box service) have been around for 5+ years at least.

[–]i_cansmellthat 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I think this decision probably caused a lot of distress for you and u/d3rr.

It's a little like the laws in place that hold restaurant owners responsible for patrons that drink, drive, and cause injury to others (and themselves). While the owner may not force the customer to drink or the bartender to serve them, the owner can still face charges for the injury inflicted by that customer because they provided the venue. Fair? Not really, but if your name is on the building you have to cover your ass, or find another profession.

If someone out there uses the grey market in a way that results in any harm, this venue will go down. And unfortunately, some “someone” always does in these kind of situations, eventually. While striving to provide a censorship free platform, you can't leave the door open to possible future litigation, otherwise your message will be totally lost. Say the site becomes successful and exposes news and truth that may not be positive towards those in positions of power, it would be too easy for them to shut it down and shut it up.

I think it stinks that the world operates like this, but this is the world we live in at the moment. I support your decision, and would do the same.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Glad to have your support. It was a very tough decision, many hours were spent deliberating the merits of doing this or not doing it. Like you said, it just basically boils down to a liability issue that is beyond my control, and leaving this liability open is like leaving the site with an kill switch that anyone can access.

Getting rid of that kill switch helps promote the longevity of the site, and we want saidit to be around for years to come.

[–]bynarie2018 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Im not part of the team, but I messaged you earlier. I'd like to join and if allowed, we need to pack up and move to a dedicated.... You guys seriously did a HELL of a job with this site.. I could never do the modifications u guys did. Very proud of the devs. =]

[–]DikDikDimbuss 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The entire internet is becoming a garbage dump.

[–]paglicacciversace 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

i thot that was the whole point of saidit. its literally IDENTICAL to reddit excpet with out the bullshit rules. how are ou guys going to compete with reddit, simple, youre not

[–]refugee 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Step forward into it's grave, I understand the legal implications but this reddit clone now has absolutely nothing to offer anyone.

[–]dustyj 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I would suggest not cloning Reddit upvote system after this change to make this a free speech forum.

Reddit is full of hardcore leftists who brigade anything to the right of Karl Marx.

This site could end up like that, or the opposite (right wing brigades.)

Either way, posts that agree with the majority hit the top, and vice versa. It's a speech killer.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the feedback. We'll never change the voting system to the reddit style, so don't worry about that, haha.

Saidit used to be called antiextremes.com. We hope to avoid both the right wing brigades and left wing brigades as much as possible, and find some sort of information-based center. That's always been our core goal.

[–]dustyj 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cool, I'm honestly here for greymarket but will be following how you guys develop and post if any subs interest me, because I hate posting things I know to be factually correct on Reddit and being brigaded (it's a generally horrible forum, only thing it's got is it's size.)

[–]NuttinBuddaHoundDawg 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Why demonize "Vendors" ?? Is there something wrong or illegal, with being a vendor of a product or service? Maybe you should swap the word "Business" there, and ban discussion on any type of commercial business whatsoever?

Again, selling a product or service online, is not illegal. Reddit WAY over-reacted apparently to some action by Congress. Would you mind explaining what has changed, was there a specific change in the law preventing any discussion of vending or trading?

The claim of Liability seems like a huge red herring. Let's say an Automobile enthusiast joins a forum to discuss restoration of Old Cars. Those people use vendors to buy, sell, and swap old car parts.. Those parts are then used to repair antique cars, which then could possibly drive and kill someone on the road ... Is saidiit now scared of being sued in this situation? Banning any link or discussion of vendors seems ridiculous.

We're discussing and vending, herbal supplements. There is a huge online community of people who talk various food supplements, herbs and botanicals. Not just kratom, ginseng, akumma seeds or Blue Lotus extract. There are bodybuilding people, sports nutrition, etc. All of these supplements are legal. Including Kratom. There is no discussion of marijuana vendors, or even legal cannabis stores, on the kratom boards.

Are you basing this on the "State and Local Law" situation? Could someone please explain that. IF the City Council, in Bumfuck Alabama, declares that wearing a certain type of hat is illegal - Does that mean the Internet / must comply with the Local law in Bumfuck? And so, you're banning Hat vendors?

SAIDIT had an opportunity - to be different than Reddit, to stand on principle. This decision could have waited - Is there an imminent threat of legal action? I'd like to know what prompted the decision.

How many people will remain here? We can "discuss News" all day on Reddit, Facebook, and other forums that have WAY more interesting people to talk with. Thank you.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because people were vending illegal stuff, and it was putting saidit in legal jeopardy, that's why. And we as admins bore ALL the responsibility with none of the benefits other than a toxic userbase that was fighting and constantly getting scammed. This isn't why we spent 7 months building this site.

Same reason we don't allow porn. Toxic and semi-illegal usersbases develop and it distracts from the actual important things in the world, which is the purpose of this site.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Perhaps we will modify the rules to allow vending of 100% legal items. We'll talk it over.

But the reality is a lot of this stuff is on the edge of the law, and I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not willing to get raided by the FBI just because people want to make money hawking goods.

And kratom isn't legal except in some states: http://speciosa.org/home/kratom-legality-map/

You might as well be asking us to allow people to sell pot on here.

[–]NuttinBuddaHoundDawg 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You might as well be asking us to allow people to sell pot on here.

No no no, Marijuana is ILLEGAL on the Federal level, it's a Schedule 1 Narcotic and has been since the 1930's. That's a ridiculous analogy. Pot IS much different than kratom, legally speaking.

Kratom, and other herbal / botanical products, or cuban cigars for that matter, may be illegal under some "State or Local" jurisdictions but that's not how laws work on The Internet. Unless you're going to run your website under the most restrictive legal environment out there ... lets say Mississippi, Indiana, Alabama.

Why stop there? People have been sued for all kinds of offensive speech too. All of those states BAN gambling too - you gonna disallow any discussion of betting on sports here? Promotion of drinking?

I mean ... I understand the Grey Market people connected to Silk Road / the "Dark Web" ARE involved in Federal crimes. There IS trading for Schedule 1 narcotics on the TOR network.. That's completely different from a legal medicinal herb which, has a following 40,000 people on reddit. Thank you.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

We are considering allowing it since our servers are in Texas. But if someone from Alabama buys stuff from Mississipi on saidit, what is the actual legal liability of the site? It's hard to find a reliable answer to that question.

[–]NuttinBuddaHoundDawg 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

One: State laws would be enforced by each state Attorney General, based on who shipped a product into that state.. Obviously any enforcement is directed at the vendor who shipped. Where the consumer heard about the vendor, seems immaterial. Naturally, online vendors want to avoid trouble & be very careful where they SHIP an item. A good example for this is tobacco. Many tobacco vendors sell online. That is against the law in Washington State: http://www.atg.wa.gov/ban-internet-and-mail-order-tobacco-sales

Two: Congress today, is debating several bills regarding the "Opioid Crisis". A big target for today's action is the Silk Road, dark web, trading of fentanyl and other synthetic drugs. It's a huge problem, serious biz... Understandable that saidit.net does NOT want to be a source, or online portal.

Kratom, otoh, is barely on the radar in these discussions. There is an ongoing debate with FDA, AKA, and other organizations. IF the Federal DEA status of kratom were to ever change, I'd be outta here.. Vendors would be gone, in that case!

Oh.. there ARE many kratom vendors, and kratom Groups, active on Facebook. Direct selling from FB is discouraged. However posting Links, and Info seems fine .. Example: 1 vendor has 8000 subscribers: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Katskshop/

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay you convinced me. D3rr and I have talked it over and I will re-write the terms and services to allow for legal vending, and make it clear only illegal vending is not allowed. I see no reason to ban legal vending.

And as long as you're sticking to one substance it's easier to know the rules regarding it, as opposed to the myriad of substances on /s/greymarket. And since it's legal in Texas, which is where the server is, I see no reason to ban it, but I will make it clear in the TOS that the user is responsible for knowing the law that applies to their area. Perhaps you could put up a legality map showing "if you live in these states you are not allowed to buy" so that the users of your forum can follow the law easily, and thus saidit is protected as well. As long as you police your own users in this way and take this seriously, then kratom vending can exist on saidit and shouldn't cause issues because saidit won't be put in any legal jeopardy.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You see this? https://p2a.co/f90Valr?resetcookie=1

[–]NuttinBuddaHoundDawg 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

SITSA act

Yes, the SITSA bill has been floating around in Congress for a year. That "Alert" you reference, is for a Committee vote in the House today. So the final Bill is getting marked up & may get a House vote this week.. From there it would go to Senate. It's part of the ongoing fight, and everyone's watching it closely.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/16/congress-is-considering-a-bill-that-would-expand-jeff-sessions-power-to-escalate-the-war-on-drugs/?utm_term=.b7cc7200574e

[–]NuttinBuddaHoundDawg 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's also argued the SITSA Bill cannot apply to kratom, since the Bill is very specific about defining Synthetic Analogues. But we're watching it and AKA attorneys are on it.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We can "discuss News" all day on Reddit, Facebook, and other forums that have WAY more interesting people to talk with

Not when those forums are censored and manipulated, that's the point of this site.