all 41 comments

[–][deleted] 21 insightful - 10 fun21 insightful - 9 fun22 insightful - 10 fun -  (24 children)

Who cares about left or right wing? I care if it's true. Are people right or wrong?

If you want to join a site rather because it makes you feel better, this probably wasn't the place for you. You will probably feel best, though, if you just type your opinions into a text to speech application and have them read back to you verbatim.

[–]TheBeefBenson 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

You're acting as if only what is true is applauded here and that what is recognised as true on face value by one is recognised as true by all.

This place is going to deteriorate into Voat in no time at all unless posts that make sweeping generalisations and insults based on race, sex, religion, or broad political markers are restricted to subs that cater specifically to that world view, are labelled as doing that and are removed from all. Because currently there are so many posts and threads on mainstream subs that equate being Jewish with being fundamentally evil or malicious by the nature of simply being Jewish. This is intolerable and this site will die as a consequence. I didn't leave one ID pol platform to find myself on another. I don't want to be around people who are stained with actual hatred and throw it around everywhere. I want a place where my character and the characters of everyone else is judged by merit. If you don't want that then it's you that should have to make a separate and isolated space here, not people like me. And people who do want that can't be debated with, there is no healthy discussion to be had when individual merit is meaningless. How can you expect the people that don't respect the merit of and individual to respect the merit of an idea?

I accept that you're free to say whatever you want, but I don't accept that neutral environments that try to promote healthy discussion should have to cater to such things.

Look at it this way, what if every sub here was dominated by flat feathers, it would get depressing really quickly, wouldn't it?

[–]Cass 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

I accept that you're free to say whatever you want, but I don't accept that neutral environments that try to promote healthy discussion should have to cater to such things.

"We can talk about anything, just don't say things I don't like."

[–]TheBeefBenson 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

"We can talk about anything you like, just don't be rude and fundamentally biased against people for things they can't help"

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you want to join a site rather because it makes you feel better, this probably wasn't the place for you.

I think this statement deserves further consideration. Having freedom of speech means giving other people the space to have an opinion which might make you uncomfortable... It means giving people the space to hold opinions you may find repulsive.

This place is going to deteriorate into Voat in no time at all unless posts that make sweeping generalisations and insults based on race, sex, religion, or broad political markers are restricted to subs that cater specifically to that world view, are labelled as doing that and are removed from all.

Once you start going into this area of policing acceptable opinions or containing thought crimes, you've demonstrated that you don't understand how to deal with freedom. The current policy based on the pyramid is the most appropriate model for any kind of censorship, anything more would be infringing on freedom and anything less would pose the risk of provoking anarchy.

How can you expect the people that don't respect the merit of and individual to respect the merit of an idea? Look at it this way, what if every sub here was dominated by flat feathers, it would get depressing really quickly, wouldn't it?

I find it interesting when other people hold views which differ fundamentally from my own. I would not find that depressing at all, quite the opposite. It would be quite interesting to discover how someone could come to the conclusion even if I may never agree. I think if you truly respected the individual's capacity to hold differing opinions, you wouldn't be so threatened by "flat earthers" and you wouldn't be so threatened by any commentary here.

[–]TheBeefBenson 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I have answered at least most of these arguments already. I don't feel like repeating myself. Please keep reading further down the thread.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have answered at least most of these arguments already. I don't feel like repeating myself.

This is basically a way to say "I can't respond reasonably so I'm going to deflect". I went through the effort of reading everything and citing comments I was responding to. If you can't copy paste a few of your responses and elaborate on how exactly you "answered at least most of these arguments", you should've just ignored me.

[–]TheBeefBenson 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

 I went through the effort of reading everything and citing comments I was responding to

And I feel I have answered them already. That my main argument is about respect for individuals and etiquette and that there is huge difference between a well reasoned argument and an insult. That's simply it.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

You're acting as if only what is true is applauded here and that what is recognised as true on face value by one is recognised as true by all.

Am I? So if anyone can have input it deteriorates but if you elect some of them as arbiters of truth that leads to a more truthful outcome? Do more people really converge towards truth that way?

I wouldn't have the arguments I am having right now if I believed that to be true. What I said is that silencing someone won't make it better.

Look at it this way, what if every sub here was dominated by flat feathers, it would get depressing really quickly, wouldn't it?

How do you suppose it would get into such a state? One of the few ways flat earthers can maintain communities, that I have seen, is through censorship. Without it, they usually bleed users until they cannot maintain their communities and they are irrelevant.

Why do you think it is not flat Earthers being banned from Twitter or Reddit? It is far easier to show that they are wrong, isn't it? They are not being banned because they are not taken seriously at this point. Their positions have been so thoroughly discredited that they simply have no relevance, not because they have mobs of protestors outside of their lectures or whatever meetups they have. Why are the media not tearing into flat Earthers but people who criticize feminism, transgenderism and so forth? Wouldn't it be far easier to discredit flat Earthers than, let's say, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Stefan Molyneux, Jared Taylor?

I don't accept that neutral environments that try to promote healthy discussion should have to cater to such things.

Bullshit. The most unhealthy thing about Internet debate today is censorship and banning. People who have nothing of value to contribute can be ignored. I have no problem with you being free to listen to who you want, but that is different from categorically excluding people based on a certain set of opinions.

I also despise the terminology you use. What is "healthy discussion"? It's entirely subjective. Someone being silenced for their opinion is something I do not find healthy, especially if shutting them down is because you cannot refute their arguments. What did OP leave for? For this place being "too conservative"? What does that mean? If that means that people are wrong about X, then why did he not say

"I am leaving because people are wrong about X"?

Because he could not refute X! Because he did not like X. That is why. Don't give me your bullshit about "healthy discussion". If he could have identified X then he would not have left with this hand waving excuse. And he would have probably not left if he could even formulate it in this way. What these people want is to state a certain opinion and not receive pushback. If you do not want honest debate on a subject, then you do not want debate. As I said, enter your opinion in a text to speech app and have it read back to you.

"I do not like your opinions because they are too Internetty."

That's what I'm going to say next time some clown argues that way. What the fuck does any of that mean? Why are people fogging so much? It's always the sign of a hypocrite, that they can either not articulate clearly what they think or they cannot come out clearly stating what they think. It's always word games, hand waving, and euphemisms.

[–]TheBeefBenson 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

My statement was never against reasoned arguments. I made it quite clear. Generalisations and insults based on immutable characteristics are not good arguments and they impede a healthy discussion. I am not saying anyone needs to be an arbiter of truth, just etiquette.

A "healthy discussion" is where people discuss in good faith and respect the individual merit of the other person and their arguments and do not launch attacks against the other person or other people based solely on their own biases against immutable characteristics.

What I despise is the "it's subjective" argument as almost everything is subjective. We should be working towards an "objective" standard of the health of discourse whereby people with opposing views can discuss things with respect.

[–][deleted]  (8 children)

[deleted]

    [–]TheBeefBenson 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    I disagree with the assertion that there is no objective information. Seems to me that your siding with the Frankfurt school on that one. Which you're free to do... but not something I expected.

    You're intentionally misrepresenting what I'm saying there. You're claiming that I'm trying to impose an objective standard of truth on a discussion but my comment clearly states that I'm saying that we need to work towards an "objectively" good means of having a discussion, whereby bias based on immutable characteristics, thus invalidating any notion of the individual, is shunned.

    [–][deleted]  (6 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]TheBeefBenson 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      Well whoever you're siding with you don't seem to mind misrepresenting someone's point.

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]TheBeefBenson 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        How then can you force an objective standard on people who are inevitably going to view any objective standard or information through their own subjective lens? Forcing any "objective standard" of truth is just an erroneous way to define what is and isn't acceptable along arbitrary lines.

        There you go, "forcing an objective standard of truth", something I wasn't petitioning for.

        [–]Middernag 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

        "Neutral environments" are clearly not something you comprehend, in a neutral environment people will be able to call out or talk about whatever they want, without biases censoring them. You clearly have a bias, which is why you're opposed to people talking about things you object to. Follow your friend to ruqqus, and don't come back here when you fuck up again.

        And secondly, Voat is awesome for me, I use it even more than saidit.

        [–]TheBeefBenson 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Well they will certainly be free to speak without bias, no one is compelling bias, but that doesn't mean people will be unbiased. My argument is that those who are clearly biased against all individuals of a group based on the immutable characteristics of those individuals, race and sex, should not be allowed to display such biases in a neutral environment. It invalidates the concept of it being neutral as it becomes dominated by people with a bias that refuses to accept individuality.

        My bias is against these biases taking over the site. That's it.

        "When youfuck it up again"

        Seems to me the alt right is the one that consistently fucks up it's platforms.

        Well if Voat is so awesome why don't you stay there? Why come here at all?

        Edit: if you're going to edit your comment at least have the decency to say it.

        You originally said "people will be able to... ,without bias."

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Exactly

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

        Stay off ruqqus asshole

        [–]Velocity 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        Ruqqus is right leaning already. If you want a delusional left wing circle jerk forum, it's called Reddit.

        [–]whereswhat 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

        I agree that A LOT of nonsense is peddled on this site. Frustrates the hell out of me too. Thats said, what about just making a sane comment or post every now and then rather than giving up entirely?

        Somehow it seems worthwhile to try and balance the nonsense with reason so long as the site sticks with the current level of censorship. Maybe I'm just wasting my time though...

        [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        I'd really like to see more lefty-types here! I feel the discourse should be more balanced. SaidIt is meant to help facilitate all of us talking to each other, we may as well try to use it.

        Are there any particular viewpoints you feel aren't well understood or represented here on SaidIt so far? I'd like to hear if you want to share.

        [–]whereswhat 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Here's a few:

        • zerohedge.com is not an acceptable source
        • Religion is problematic
        • Nazis were wrong
        • No race is inherently inferior to another
        • It is important to argue with tact. Calling someone a shill just makes you look stupid.
        • Derogatory language does not bring us closer to peace.
        • vaccines that work should be sought after

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Interesting. Thank you for sharing these. Some I agree with, and some I don't... currently at least.

        I hope you post and comment. I think some of these ideas bring a balancing perspective to current atmosphere here.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        I also don’t like that the site is basically just old reddit code with some new stuff on top

        [–]PopASquatt 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

        So I go on both Saidit and Ruqqus and I can tell you right now Ruqqus is just as much right wing as Saidit is.

        Just by setting the frontpage on Ruqqus to ALL this was one of the most upvoted posts from a Guild I wouldn't personally subscribe too : https://ruqqus.com/post/13hh/ruqqus-is-not-a-haven-for

        But to each their own experience.

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

        At least ruqqus actually has some left leaning people

        [–]PopASquatt 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        Depends how left wing you wanna go. I'm left wing, marginally, but still left wing. It takes active participation to make a community. You can voice your perspective here with no fear of downvotes. Which means people can't silence you, no matter how "right-wing" this website is. Not necessarily the same on ruqqus.

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

        Except I can’t stand all of the anti Jew and anti black shit I see here and can’t downvote

        [–]Velocity 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        You are the epitome of a greater problem. When you see things you don't agree with and you can't come up with a cogent counter argument. You then seek to downvote/censor it

        [–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Yeah, all both of them with you makes three.

        [–]teelo 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

        Too right wing? With all the extreme radical feminists here? Lol.

        [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

        The front is always “Jew bad black bad white good”

        [–]Antifa 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        You mean the pervasive opinion that BLM is a Jewish led fraud? It is.

        Black is not bad. I grew up in a majority black area as a white kid. I have a black ex gf, majority black friends and my step dad is black.

        There's a large body of black people out there that think BLM is bull. I know this because I speak to them every fucking day.

        So whilst I don't like the racism here, I'm even fucking happy that can be allowed to have a voice, because the alternative is the censored and censorious bullshit that is Reddit.

        The front page at this stage was always going to be reactionary to reddits overtly obvious agenda, but other voices (unlike Reddit) are allowed here.

        I fucking despise pink pill feminism, but I'm glad it can have a voice here. If you're offended by opinion, then you need to fuck off back to Reddit; it's most definitely the right place for you.

        [–]whistlepig 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        And a whole bunch of other things including a good deal of lesbian posts. A forum for discussion by all people will include views had by ALL people. It is too bad that you are not comfortable with that. TV is still a thing. Maybe you'll be more comfortable just watching that and staying off the internet.

        [–]Tortoise 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Look, I use both and I'm a lefty, and tbh, this place may be better.

        The lack of downvotes means the left can still have a place even if we are not the majority.

        [–]galaxybrain 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

        And nothing of value was lost

        [–]whistlepig 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Judging from your comments... I doubt you're find ruqqus that welcoming either.

        [–]Edvin 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        Sorry to see you go, it's nice having other non right wing people to balance the discussion. Maybe you can come back someday :)

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          I like to troll the crazies herer

          [–]m68k 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

          Ha, you'll be in for a shocker. ;)

          [–]copenseethe 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          Left wing people are too fragile to face opposition to their views. That is why silencing dissent is such a large part of their agenda. All of reddit, Twitter and Fb is a safe space where people that express right wing ideas are vilified and silenced (and in many cases doxxed and threatened).