DISCUSSIONQuestion - is this nonsense around pronouns happening in other languages?

submitted by GreenScreen from self.TumblrInAction

I don't know enough about other languages to understand if there is comparable silliness happening also. I'm hoping this 'movement' is confined to mutilating the English language but I don't suppose so... It would be interesting to find out from people in other places if you know of any examples.

all 61 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]IX-Hispana 26 insightful - 4 fun26 insightful - 3 fun27 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Yes, universities in Spanish speaking countries push it. The university of Buenos Aires recently ruled students could use made up genders in their assignments. We're basically where the US was in 2015, with liberal academia acting up and mainstream culture brushing it off as "just some college kids" who will change when they go into "the real world".

Argentinian youths are using "e" as a neutral gender in addition of the traditionally masculine/neutral "o" and the feminine "a". They write things like "les hijes" instead of "los hijos".

In Spain, the minister of equality (a communist by conviction), became a bit of a laughinstock in a campaign event for using made up genders. I think that's a mistake. We laugh now but we've seen how they've taken over in America. Laughing at them doesn't stop them.

[–]GreenScreen[S] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Interesting, so is there an Spanish equivalent in normal usage of 'they' as in indetermined gender, which is now being used rather than 'he' or 'her?

[–]r2d2_21 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

so is there an Spanish equivalent in normal usage of 'they' as in indetermined gender,

Not quite. Spanish has “él” = (he) and “ella” = (she), but the indeterminate gender is also “él”. In general, anything that has no gender or both genders (like a group of people) just defaults to the male gender.

The reason “les hijes” is so ridiculous is because the -e suffix doesn't exist, it's 100% an invention for this gender nonsense. I'd say it's similar to using “xe/xer”, but if you defined “xe/xer” to be the gender neutral pronoun.

[–]WouldYouFightAPanda 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In general, anything that has no gender or both genders (like a group of people) just defaults to the male gender.

I remember this being a big topic back when wokeism started to gain steam, as one of the original "we need to de-gender language!" examples. It was obviously the machinations of the Patriarchy that determined masculine to be the default.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

God speed Spain and Argentina. Though I heard that Argentina outside of Buenos Aires is based, but I could be wrong.

[–]Cass 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Isn't this causing the rise of the far right as a reaction, like it does in Sweden and other countries?

[–]KnightWhoSaysNWord 24 insightful - 8 fun24 insightful - 7 fun25 insightful - 8 fun -  (11 children)

In France, not only we got the creation of a neutral third person pronoun (which didn't existed up until now because the masculine form was considered the neutral one), but the Académie Française decided they weren't inclusive enough and created what's called "inclusive writing".

To explain it simply: up until recently, masculine form was also considered the neutral form when talking about groups of individuals of mixed sexes. For exemple, you have 9 actresses and one actor, and should you want to talk about the group as a whole, you'd stay it's a group of actors. Now, with inclusive writing, it's supposed to be a group of "actor.ress.es". Yes it uses dots within words, and no, at no point in french language up until now did we used dots for anything other than ending a sentence.

Funniest part in all of this is that inclusive writing made it harder to dyslexic children to learn proper spelling, but also, governement banned inclusive writing from its own official texts, because it's an headache to use it. No one wants it, yet people are still supposed to use it.

[–]GreenScreen[S] 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Messing with punctuation is unacceptable. Off with their heads.

[–]GrilledTofuIdentifying as a block of tofu 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I knew a chat who kicked and banned a native French lady because she said making French gender neutral is impossible. She also stated that writing everything with .e like "actor.ress.es" is cumbersome to write and to speak.

[–]r2d2_21 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

but also, governement banned inclusive writing from its own official texts

That sounds just wonderful.

[–]KaijuJay 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Please tell me this isn’t widespread I want to go to Europe to avoid this

[–]KnightWhoSaysNWord 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well, in theory, the Académie Française is supposed to be the authority when it comes to rules by which the french language abides. In practice, first, it only has authority in France, and not other french speaking countries, like Belgium, and second, only a small margin of people treat this seriously, most people don't care about what the Académie Française says about shit. For exemple, with the democratization of Internet in France, a lot of english neologisms (like spoilers, streaming, e-sports, etc) found their way into the french language, since they had no equivalent. The Académie Française did try to invent french equivalent for theses words, but nobody actually uses them outside of official documents (like court papers or governement texts) because people don't care.

[–]LukewarmIcecream 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

í'm thankful my language doesn't have grammatical genders, I just hope they never start this so called "inclusive writing" nonsense you (and I think the Germans too) have to deal with...

[–]MsTig0 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You're not safe yet though. My language does not have them either, but someone introduced her/him/they/itself to me with "My name is so-and-so and if we were speaking English, my pronouns would be they/them". I replied "but why the fuck would we be speaking English though?" and apparently that was the wrong question.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Based France. I have a suspicion that this gender neutral crap has originated from Quebec? Also, what are the takes of Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg and French-speaking African countries on this nonsense?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Quebec is kinda based. It's the Whitest part of North America by far. It was the French intellegentsia that tried to abolish age of consent four decades ago.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Quebec is cucked on lockdowns and vaccines. But if Quebec rejects transgender insanity whilst being a province of Canada, then I will give some respect to the province.

[–]PerpetuallyLethargic 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

because it's an headache to use it. No one wants it, yet people are still supposed to use it.

Yet another example of needs of the few outweighing the needs of the many.

These people are fucking insufferable.

[–]slavdude0 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

We have he/she/it and they by default in Polish. But apart from some crazy kids no one is using "them" as a singular form and no one is using "it" towards humans... I mean unless you're making fun of em.

Systematically there's no push for this lunacy and generally if you write your papers using this "new speech", you will fail.

There was this case recently when some run from home, drug abusing, ultra liberal, non-binary girl claimed she was raped by policemen while being detained for stealing a bottle of vodka. She's using "it" as a pronoun and one liberal press outlet wrote the whole article about it using neutral words. So "she/he went" in Polish is "ona/on poszła/poszedł". For "it" it goes "ono poszło" and it sounds funny for us. Out of place, especially in context of people. That article became a laughingstock.

[–]Athelhilda4 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Interesting. What about any other “woke” imports from the West? Do you have the “trans women are women” nonsense or anti-white racism going on? What are your universities like, and how hard is it to get citizenship?

[–]slavdude0 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh of course we have some young soc-lib types. But they're in minority and not so loud and obnoxious like in US or UK. This is still very conservative country and you can actually get your ass whooped if you're being a freak. So topics like Ts are so rare they're pretty much unnoticeable. Anti white stuff is also nonexistent because we're like 99% white here. Citizenship? Not that hard. But there's general public pushback about uncontrolled immigration. Especially from countries shipping troublemakers that generally don't fit in. We have a ton of Ukrainians now because of war, but we're generally pretty similar.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I hear that Poland has this man who claims to be a non-binary lesbian. I forget his name, but he once bullied a lesbian into dating him, and he hit a bus.

[–]slavdude0 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly have no clue who you are talking about.

[–]cottoneyejoe 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

The German language is such a nightmare to learn because each noun can have one of 3 genders which may or may not change depending on the case; nominitive, accusative, genitive, or dative where the gender changes inexplicably, almost randomly. Wokeism would add a whole new layer to Dante's Inferno.

[–]jet199 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I remember a German rad fem tweeted it her pronouns as satire and it took up the whole 140 characters

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Oh fuck....😨

[–]DreamClownKittySelf 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Would? They are already doing it. Besides the three genders Er(he) Sie(she) and Es(it), they are trying to push Dey, which is pronounced "they" as an non binary alternative. Also, there was a professor who adressed her students and collegues with "Studierx" ("StudentX") or "Professx" ("ProfessorX"). Normally, the german language uses something called the generic masculinum, which means that if it's not known which gender someone or a group of people use, it is masculine, which is the shorter form (without "-in" which is a female suffix). Ex: Der Bäcker, Die Bäckerin (the baker, the bakeress?)

We still couldn't agree on which special character we should use to "gender" (Yes, it's a verb over here) Ex: Der Bäcker -> Die Bäcker*in / Die Bäcker:in / Die Bäcker_in / Die BäckerIn Apple (Yes, the tech company from the US) uses "Bäcker:in" consistently in it's entire user interfaces in german language, while some people claim it's not inclusive enough for non binary and trans people, because the "Genderstern" (gender-star) is more prominent

Another trend is to change the structure of a sentence to make it sound gender neutral: Der Bäcker bäckt -> Die backende Person bäckt (The baker bakes -> the baking person bakes)

Last but not least, there is this convention to make a spoken gap or pause between the word and the gender suffix. This is, however, only used in some news reports and no sane human being would use it when not speaking infront of a camera. Ex: Die Bäcker backen -> Die Bäcker[pause]innen backen (The bakers bake -> The beker[pause]esses bake)

Hope this german horror cabinet of gendering helps to understand the ridiculousness of this whole debate.

[–]cottoneyejoe 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for explaining the current trends. I have not been in Germany since 1999 but lived there for 3 years in the army. I loved living there and really enjoyed the Germans I worked with.

I wanted to share with you a short humor piece Mark Twain wrote about his difficulties to master the German language, called "The Awful German Language" -> https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html

[–]JerzyZulawski 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

See also: "Diktator:innen wie Putin" https://twitter.com/phoenix_de/status/1532037351085690880

[–]meisthebigdumbTransracial BlackX Rockgender Bispecies 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

China still uses the male/female pronouns normally (Male pronouns are used to describe men, or someone of an unknown sex), but I saw one article about trying to introduce "non binary". Doubt it will get accepted though because China is still a very conservative society.

[–]hfxB0oyADon't piss on my head & tell me it's raining. 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Anyone who makes too much noise they'll just send off to a camp with the wiggers.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Based. Though I have nothing against wiggers.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Especially because in 2022 the pride flag tranny shit is the hallmark of American imperialism.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It sure is. I see these flags in Irish cities and it proves that my country has become America’s bottom bitch.

[–]meisthebigdumbTransracial BlackX Rockgender Bispecies 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Funny how China recently banned rainbow flags from being sold because gay

[–]On_WheelsWe need to secure the existence of the gay race 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, they aren't wrong.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, the Chinese authorities would arrest people who try to make Chinese language gender neutral.

[–]Femaleisnthateful 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

China is far to authoritarian to tolerate The Church of Gender Ideology.

[–]shadeviking 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Sweden started using the neutral "hen" instead of han/hun (he/she). I heard it started in their gender neutral kindergartens but apparently it spread so much that a newspaper had to tell their employees to stop using it in articles. Between that and a woman in Norway getting 3 years for misgendering, I'm starting to worry about the future of Denmark.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]LyingSpirit472 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

    Well, would Russia really count due to the anti-LGBT laws there? If the "well, gay marriage caused gender nonsense!" argument had any legs to it, it'd stand to reason it's...kind of hard for gender nonsense to take hold when you can be arrested merely for being gay.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Whole thing was fucking weird. It's why I'm convinced world governments definitely have ulterior motives for giving gender/LGBT shit attention. It's the perfect distraction.

      But, on the other hand, while your argument is right, the equal argument would be that "You're Putin. You play both sides of the government to divide the US or other world governments, so no matter who's in charge they'll ignore you. You have designs on wars of annexation, and because the leaders of both parties are on your side you can get away with it. Why the hell would you use that ulterior motive, knowing it'll guarantee you angry up LGBT-rights activists, and from there, people who skew on the left, and turn them against you? By remaining silent, then you'd have the left or right, whoever's in power, on your side as you make your plans and so no one would notice or care."

      [–]outra_pessoa 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      It is happening in Brazil. First it started as a retarded internet fad that we all made jokes about, but somehow it reached the academy and suddenly it was considered a super serious thesis in post-modern linguistics. Most people on real life consider it bullshit, but a small minority that occupies media, NGOs, corporations and all their propaganda are pushing this shit and are doing everything they can to put this retarded language in government and schools.

      [–]Yagihige 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

      I can very easily think of a sentence in portuguese where practically every single word is gendered in relation to a subject. I would think just that fact would make any attempt to adopt this american BS a stupid idea but some people are truly morons.

      [–]Dr_Bukkake 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

      Oh it’s a huge issue the Taliban are currently dealing with in Afghanistan. All the Afghani teenagers that want to transition is causing a deficit in the amount of poppy farmers. So this proves that this isn’t the result of social media conning gullible naive people such as teenagers, it’s just a naturally occurring event since the beginning of time.

      [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      Not sure if trolling. Anyway, the Taliban outlawed opium production. That's why the US invaded in the first place.

      [–]Dr_Bukkake 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Trust me the trans community and teens wanting to transition is non existent in Afghanistan.

      [–]jet199 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

      In real life there were big protests in Birmingham UK because they taught some classes about trans identities and every Muslim girl decided she didn't want to grow up to be a Muslim woman so must be a boy.

      [–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      Yeah, Muslims protested in droves. Gotta hand it to them, Muslims don’t play.

      [–]Cass 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      On the other hand, I too would turn trans asap if I was born in a muzzie family.

      [–]Dr_Bukkake 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I mean if I was a Muslim girl I would want to be a boy as well seeing as how they have a much easier life. That is what is going on, these kids (mostly white) are hearing in school how evil straight white people are while also hearing how brave and stunning trans people are so you can see why all of the sudden the trans numbers are skyrocketing.

      [–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      If this is true, then this is why we shouldn’t let people under 18 vote.

      Fuck it, let’s raise the voting age to 30. I’m not joking.

      [–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      Doesn't work that way- we see it from how many countries which give kids the right to drink alcohol at younger ages don't have nearly the same amount of problems with alcohol that countries that give people the right at older ages. The younger you give people an adult privilege, then they're going to act out when they're young and stupid about it, but the sooner they'll get the stupidity out of their system, be over all of that bullshit, and start being serious about it. You raise the voting age to 30, you'll have stupid-ass 30 year olds voting. 40? Same. 50? Same. 80? Same.

      Shit, by this logic, I'd honestly argue we should LOWER the voting age to age 6 and "anyone who is in primary/elementary school or older gets a vote": Current events/social studies classes will be teaching about the election during election years anyway, so kids will be forced to hear about the elections and the issues from school. Give school-aged children the vote, they'll have to learn the issues and vote accordingly, and be over this bullshit long before even their edgelord phase, let alone when they get every other adult right.

      [–]Dr_Bukkake 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      No it’s not true. My point was it ain’t happening there at all.

      [–]GrilledTofuIdentifying as a block of tofu 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

      Can't happen in Malay because pronouns are already gender neutral to begin with. Instead, it's based on 'is this thing a person or not a person?'

      In Malay both pronouns for the other person is "Dia". No him/her versions. For non-persons such as animals and objects, 'Ia' is used instead.

      Even if Malay was a gendered language, good luck trying to convince a historically Islamic country to make any changes.

      [–]snartmomentrip tia 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      nope. we have two genders (and "it") in czech.

      our adjectives, past tense and nouns are gendered. "he" is what you default to instead of "they".

      [–]iamonlyoneman 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      Some languages yes. Some languages it is impossible and just sounds like western stupidity. People can't understand it because it doesn't translate.

      [–]exiled_from_reddit 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      I disagree heavily with user who wrote that in Polish there is no such nonsense happening.

      It's happening in 'leftist' and internationally connected circles, in artistic and creative circles and in academia. It definitely isn't happening with 'crazy kids' only. And it has very clearly and very strongly intensified for the last 2 years.

      It's also being transposed into Polish without any regard for language characteristics. E. g some people are pushing others to publish their pronouns and even use the phrase 'use the correct pronouns!'

      However in Polish not only pronouns are gendered but also adjectives, nouns and some verbs. Take the sentence: "I worked for the magazine X as an independent journalist". In Polish there are different feminine, masculine and (sometimes) neuter forms of words "worked", "independent" and "journalist".

      From the perspective of wokies it has a very undesirable effect - you don't actually ever need to announce your pronouns. It just suffices to say something, and others may easily ascertain the grammar gender you use. Of course this fact doesn't bother Polish crop of wokies at all - they still go around and yap about announcing 'pronouns' like it was necessary. They do that because they've become mentally English.

      They also promote the "gender neutral" form of verbs ending with the letter 'x' which is completely jarring, because except foreign loanwords Polish doesn't use this letter at all.

      [–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      Is there pushback against this madness in Poland?

      [–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      In Ireland we mostly speak English. I’m not sure about the Irish language, because I’ve only been learning it casually for the last six years. For the third person, we have sé/é for masculine, sí/í for feminine and iad/siad for plural. Similar to English. So I guess the retards are calling themselves iad/siad.

      Non binary culture in Ireland is not as bad as America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada. But it is pretty bad.

      [–]lunarstrain 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

      The Sims 4 recently added an update for English speakers that allows you to choose your pronouns, including a "nonbinary" set. It also changes all of the words it uses for your character to neutral variants. (I promise this is relevant.)

      To appease the children, EA has openly stated that they will be doing this for other languages, too. The game has been translated into 18 so far. I imagine that will bring a lot of attention to this stupid shit in their languages.

      [–]Q-Continuum-kin 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      One unfortunate side effect of equality evolving from a patriarchal society is that during the transition people felt the need to unnecessarily sex certain jobs and words. Comments here really show it. In English we have words like "actor" or "waiter" which are already 100% neutral but for some reason people had to create feminized versions of the words like "actress" and "waitress". Luckily for us it's a bit easier to go back to those true neutral words. For gendered languages all those words are just unfortunately gendered as masculine for neutrality but these gender activists act like it's an attack on their identity just by speaking the language.

      It feels like the anglosphere created all this bullshit but we can probably easily recover because we do have true neutral word forms. If this shit infects the gendered languages though... Shit that's going to be a cancer.