all 18 comments

[–]ClassroomPast6178[S] 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

The article talks about how more and more medical bodies, particularly in the US, are stating that race is a social construct despite more and more evidence that it really isn’t.

How many times must your theory be falsified before you finally admit that you were utterly wrong?

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

"race" as such is a social construct. But ancestral risk factors towards disease and other medical conditions are not. Although those risk factors often line up along with the social race classifications, we do need to be aware that they are genetic predispositions, and we don't judge people's race based on genetics, but based on appearance and self-identification, so it's possible to misidentify issues if you are too caught up in the ideal of racial based medical differences that you fail to properly check to see if the patient actually suffers from them or not.

The author of this does talk about how they were taught that racial differences do make a difference, and they were right in a way, but in the past the theory of racial differences was largely understood as there being three major racial groups, Caucasoids, Negroids, and Mongoloids. Unsurprisingly as a European developed theory, it was influenced heavily by the Christian ideal that the three sons of Noah immigrated to the three known continents at the time and each sired their own racial group. It is practically pseudoscience. Though it's not wrong in the idea that you certainly can group people that way if you want. The grouping itself has no significance. The significance of how we group racial differences is almost entirely a social construct. The underlying physical differences are not but how we choose to identify others based on them is dictated to us by our social environment. If you grow up in the United States you will be able to identify Mexicans as a different "racial group" despite the country being colonized by western Europe as well. But you likely consider Chinese and Vietnamese to be the same race despite it being fairly easy to tell them apart if you know what you are looking for.

If you're a doctor and a black man is your patients, you are absolutely reasonable in recognizing that their susceptibility to certain health issues, like sickle cell anemia is higher. But you still have to test for those issues and not just assume that they exist. Racial differences merely reflect statistical likelihoods of occurrence within a group, individuals within the group are not beholden to follow the statistics.

[–]ClassroomPast6178[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The interesting thing was the AI being able to identify a person’s self-reported race at a rate greater than by chance without being deliberately trained simply by scanning medical imagery. The issue was that instead of saying “Hmm, that’s an interesting finding!” the researchers apologised profusely.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It shouldn't be surprising. AI essentially isn't "intelligent" it's just able to process massive amounts of data and find correlations at a rate that far outpaces what humans can do. And since it doesn't really have "intelligence" it's essentially tossing in everything until it finds what works. Very brute force process of figuring something out but given enough time and data it can start to work.

I bet you could train a human to do the same thing if you showed various medical scans of certain races. There are clear physical differences between different groups of humans and you can probably get pretty good at guessing what race someone is by an X-ray if you know what to look for.

The thing is, it's still a social construct because you're programming the computer, and telling the people participating in the study, to choose from a list of races. The thing is that list in the first place is basically a social construct itself. We can choose to divide races extremely broadly at the species level, or we can go down as narrow as we can go and start to divide people down not only by what continent their ancestors came from but what country and possibly even what tribe.

So the question is at what level of granularity do you want to define "race" and that's the real reason why it's a "social" concept.

It's a social concept linked to a biological cause, but a social concept none the less because there's no one clear biological factor involved and you need to at some point start to define your classifications along somewhat arbitrarily defined categories.

[–]Dragonerne 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The thing is, it's still a social construct because you're programming the computer, and telling the people participating in the study, to choose from a list of races.

Not true.

You can ask the AI to group people into races with zero supervision or human social construction and the AI will by "coincidence" create the same races that humans use. This is because race is biological.

To say otherwise is to be stupid

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Source? The computer is programmed by humans, it begs to reason that it's going to be influenced by the human instructions. It's not that you can't tell who is genetically related to who by appearance, that's not the argument. It's a simple apparent fact that offspring often resemble their parents and given enough time and separation populations will develop various common traits within their population.

Race is by its nature a spectrum of sorts, though I loath the term because it implies some linear criteria one can measure where race is far more complicated. But I digress, we can take simple skin color as the criteria. And we can say people have more or less melanin. At what point do we draw the line of separation? That is socially decided.

In the same way different cultures look at the color spectrum and group colors differently in their own languages. To say that the physical reality of color, as electromagnetic radiation, is somehow a social construct would be lunacy. But exactly what shades of a color you determine to be "blue" or "green" is a social construct. Humans don't think in terms of wavelengths of light but in associations with things.

Many cultures have a tendency to combine the colors of blue and green into a singular concept of a "natural" color. Most cultures didn't have a word for Orange until people started to import the fruit. Which is why they share the word. The orange isn't named after its color, rather the color was named after the fruit, we teach that there are usually 6 colors in kindergarten. There's actually an "infinite" number of colors, but how you want to precisely define the difference is pointless, and generally falls along what our own social conditioning tells us to sort them.

Another good example is animals. Rats and mice are clearly different, yet go to some countries and the word for both is the same. Hell even the number of continents on earth is somewhat of a "social construct" since how we define the term is important. Kids in countries in Asia learn there are 5, Westerners learn there are 6. In actuality they are both right and both wrong. There's as many continents as there are land masses. But the Americas and Afro-Eurasia are just as easily considered to be two giant continents, or perhaps one if you disregard the bearing straight but I'll digress.

A lot of or understanding of classifications is in fact due to how we define things. And a lot of the time even our understanding of purely natural phenomenon can become entangled with various social concepts and indeed, constructs.

So I propose a simple yet extremely difficult question. What is an objective criteria by which we can sort people into different racial groups? And why is that criteria the best criteria?

[–]Dragonerne 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Source?

Because you asked for a source, I wont read the rest of what you wrote, because this is basic AI 101.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsupervised_learning

But here is a source for you to study up on.

[–]jet199 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You can't test for all issues though.

Black people have a higher risk of type 2 diabetes. You won't know if each individual has that higher risk so you have to tell the whole group to be careful. There is no way to be nice about it.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Nothing wrong with that. Telling someone that they are part of a risk group for something isn't problematic in any way. Just by living in America you are at a higher risk of that though. So the question comes to play is the risk factor due to genetics or lifestyle?

[–]Wanderingthehalls 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Women of European and Asian ethnicities have significantly higher rates of bone density loss post menopause than other women. That's very unlikely to have anything to do with lifestyle as women in Ireland, Japan, Sweden and Mongolia all have different lifestyles and many will have as much/more in common with the black population of London than each other. In all likelihood, the higher rates of Osteopenia/Osteoporosis are a result of Neanderthal, and possibly Denisovan, heritage. In the same way that people with Neanderthal dna have higher rates of autoimmune diseases. Or East Asian need to use a different BMI guide as they are negatively affected by body fat at lower levels. Or how I can drink litres of milk every week without any issue while most adult humans would have some degree of discomfort/ill health.

There are health differences between people of different ethnicities. Some are due to lifestyle/diet others from genetic background, some of those genetic factors are even caused by ancient lifestyles, like the mutation for lactase persistence that is common in northwest Europe and north east Africa.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And you will find no disagreement here. Your ancestral genetic history does have an effect on your risk factors for developing diseases, we can even discuss the elephant in the room and discuss genetic hereditary intelligence that nobody socially conscious will dare to touch.

Yet neither of those things touch on my point that how we choose to group people isn't based on fundamentally objective criteria. We could easily say that since women of asian and European ethnicities share the same trait, are they not the same race? Why?

All I say is that unlike sex where there are two very clear categories. Race doesn't share anything remotely similar that encompasses the concept. We can choose any criteria or set of criteria to define racial groups but there is little reason to define them in this way socially since the entire purpose of race cognition in humans is to indicate intribe and outribe relationships. We've evolved to recognize our own kin because the people that did not would be killed in our ancient past.

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's funny how they really push the social construct BS in science and important areas like law but when it comes to entertainment they go completely the opposite way.

Heaven forfend you ever have an actor of the wrong race or say black people aren't naturally better at sport.

[–]clownworlddropout 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fucking Clown World.

[–]hfxB0oyADon't piss on my head & tell me it's raining. 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think what's going to happen is going to be similar to the Winston Churchill quote; "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities."

Yes, science is going woke, but after enough people die and after enough bullshit coverup hypotheses fail, the hard facts are going to leak through and more and more people will have no option but to admit that this stuff is fact. The timeline on this will be long, however.

[–]IkeConn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Facts aren't fair.

[–]LynchTheGroomers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Idk why the elites are pushing this crap knowing full well that Russia and China will cuck the West because of this.

[–]SMCAB 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They blinded me with $cience!

[–]IkeConn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When facts aren't fair they just ignore them.