Algerian Boxer Imane Khelif wins women's gold medal

submitted by Nintendogirl2 from self.TumblrInAction

What's your thoughts on this?

My thoughts are: I'm so confused by this point as to what Khelif is. If Khelif is a man then this very bad. If Khelif is some kind of intersex disorder, then that's complicated. If Khelif is just a very masculine woman, then it is a non-issue. It's also so hard to find an unbiased and balanced news source.

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[–]Akatonbo 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If Khelif is some kind of intersex disorder, then that's complicated

But there's nothing complicated about males with disorders of sexual development. To be a bona fide male, you need 2 conditions to be true:

  • the SRY gene (normally located on the Y chromosome) is present and working so empryonic gonads are converted to testes and start testosterone production, and
  • the body has the ability to react to testosterone.

That's it. It's that simple. Therefore, the only conditions you may have as an XY carrier that do not result in at least partial masculinization, are:

  • XY gonadal dysgenesis: the SRY gene is absent or not working. Embryonic gonads are never converted to testes, and they can't convert to ovaries either. No sexual maturation ever takes place, and without intervention your adult form often looks like an overgrown 10-year-old girl.
  • Complete androgen insensitivity: the SRY gene is present and working, and your (undescended) testes produce normal male amounts of testosterone that are orders of magnitude higher than normal female amounts. But your body doesn't react to it. After a while testosterone aromatizes into estrogen, and THAT is what your body reacts to by growing feminine breasts and hips. However, no true sexual maturation ever takes place, and your gonads remain testes with sperm that has no chance to mature. Your adult form looks like a woman with very sparse pubic hair.

Both conditions manifest at puberty with primary amenorrhea. There is no way you think you're a girl and ignore such an obvious health problem as NOT starting your menstrual cycle. What are we supposed to believe, there were no medics in Algeria or Taiwan to conduct a well-woman exam on Khelif and the other male, Lin Yu-ting, when their health is important as they are professional sportsmen? Are we supposed to believe that these males truly believed they were women, were asked by doctors about their cycles and reported not having them, and no medic ever flagged either of them for further investigation? That's bullshit! They didn't appeal their IBA genetic test results precisely because they knew they were males, and the results didn't surprise them in the slightest.

What is even more important, both Khelif and Lin show definite signs of masculinization. It's almost a given they don't have either of these syndromes. They have XY chromosomes, their SRY genes work, and their bodies react to testosterone. These males should never have been placed in the women's category, and the ideologically captured IOC must have a complete overhaul of their management. I mean, the IOC literally prohibits journalists from using words like "biological man" and "genetically male" because according to them it's "dehumanizing" to "sportspeople". But guess what, it's totally not dehumanizing to have a "sport" of adult males pummeling women.

[–]Nintendogirl2[S] 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm thinking it was most likely 46 XY gonadal DSD like cephyrious said. If that was the case, then as you said, Imane Khelif and his parents would've found out during puberty, so there's no excuse for going into women's boxing as an adult.

[–]LordoftheFliesAmeri-kin 2.0. Pronouns: MegaWhite/SuperStraight/UltraPatriarchy 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

At this point, does it even matter? The Paris Olympics became a freakshow right from the opening, everything that follows is more of the same.

[–]Nintendogirl2[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yeah, I unfortunately remember that dumpsterfire opening with the drag queen last supper 🤮🤮🤮.

[–]QueenBread 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I can't be 100% sure, but it looks rather clear that Imane is a man born without dick due to a genetical malformation. This is what intersex people are, by the way: they're still either men or women, but with some traits and even genitalia of the other gender. They're nature's transwomen/transmen.

And a man without a dick is still a man. With all the biological advantages in sports.

[–]Nintendogirl2[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

After I did more research on the subject, for once I fully agree with you.

[–]Adventurous_Ad6212 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Bigger stronger faster and they stay harder longer

[–]Vaporade 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Most likely a man with a DSD

[–]Femaleisnthateful 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I haven't seen any evidence that him or the Taiwanese boxer have any medical condition.

[–]bife_de_lomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

The IOC confirmed Khelif has a DSD.

The IBA criteria that Khelif failed mean he has a Y chromosome. Of the conditions where one might be considered a woman with a Y chromosome, they won't go through puberty (so won't look like Khelif) and none will be athletes at anything like Olympic level.

He's a man.

[–]cephyrious 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Source on IOC confirming DSD?

[–]bife_de_lomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Bach at the IOC made this statement saying "this is not a DSD case"

https://youtu.be/PIO6tSEcUD8

Following which the IOC made a further written statement correcting this.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-very-disappointing-martina-navratilova-unimpressed-ioc-s-clarification-transgender-dsd-slip-up-imane-khelif-paris-olympics

However, that doesn't matter because Khelif's own team confirm that he has a male karyotype and male testosterone levels, so he is definitely a man.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

The IOC confirmed Khelif has a DSD.

Bullshit. The IBA didn't even confirm that. They just said they were going to provide proof on their website, and had a big press conference so reporters would all attend and they could feel important.

[–]Akatonbo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

True dat. The IBA didn't confirm Khelif has a DSD, they just talked about how he tested positive for XY chromosomes twice. For all practical purposes he might be a common boring dick-and-balls male without any DSD to make him mildly interesting.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The IBA didn't confirm Khelif has a DSD, they just talked about how he tested positive for XY chromosomes twice.

No they talked about her being XY once. Which they said they would post proof of on their website. Because they couldn't find it at the press conference. Then they said she had male level testosterone. When before they said they hadn't tested testosterone. But their bottom line was "I'm a doctor, and I know what a female is." Which isn't even a test.

What I'm getting at is they do a lot of talking and not a lot of making sense.

So let's ignore what they're saying as low signal to noise, and talk what we have.

The IOC had a standard for "female". It is the passport. What standard do you think should be instigated for next Olympics?

[–]bife_de_lomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Bach at the IOC made this statement saying "this is not a DSD case"

https://youtu.be/PIO6tSEcUD8

Following which the IOC made a further written statement correcting this.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-very-disappointing-martina-navratilova-unimpressed-ioc-s-clarification-transgender-dsd-slip-up-imane-khelif-paris-olympics

However, that doesn't matter because Khelif's own team confirm that he has a male karyotype and male testosterone levels, so he is definitely a man.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Following which the IOC made a further written statement correcting this.

But not contradicting it. It is not a transgender case. Which means "she" is the only pronoun for her.

Khelif's own team confirm that he has a male karyotype and male testosterone levels,

Are you talking shit? Can you link me to their statement confirming that?

so he is definitely a man.

No. To be definitely a man you need to be born with a penis. Or identify as a man.

[–]bife_de_lomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

No. To be definitely a man you need to be born with a penis. Or identify as a man.

Nonsense.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

So if you think they look a bit androgynous, they're a man?

[–]bife_de_lomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Only gender-identity idiots would consider something so superficial to be relevant.

Looks have nothing to do with it.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

sigh

How are you defining 'definitely a man'?

[–]Akatonbo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So if you think they look a bit androgynous, they're a man?

So if he is a man born with a damaged dick and undescended balls, he is a woman?

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You think a vagina and ovaries are "a damaged dick and undescended balls"?

They're not the same.

[–]ID10T 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We did it boys!!! Women suck am I right?

[–]cephyrious 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

If IBA are right, and if you read between the lines, they probably are and we're talking about 46, XY DSD, then Khelif would not be able to compete in track and field in the olympics. Strange then that she gets to punch women in the face with the same advantages.

[–]Nintendogirl2[S] 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

46 XY DSD makes the most sense from the evidence I've seen. He definitely shouldn't be allowed in women's boxing.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Khelif was assigned female at birth, has lived as a female, and has always competed as a female.

There's two things to note.

1) The IOC standard for proof of sex and of age is the passport. I think there should be a more rigorous criteria at Olympic level, but whether or not you agree with that, she met the criteria for this competition. We also have no proof that she would fail any more rigorous test. The IBA have not come forward with that as promised, and it is very plausible that she was disqualified from the IBA corruptly.

Before his involvement with the IBA, Umar Kremlev was a Russian businessman and sports executive. He held roles in the construction, security, and taxi industries. He was also linked to the “Night Wolves”, a far-Right nationalist biker gang with Kemlin ties, and other connections with influential Russian political circles, including Vladimir Putin.

Umar Kremlev was elected as the President of the IBA in 2020. His election was marred by allegations of corruption and breaches of campaign rules. One notable incident involved the disqualification of his opponent, Boris van der Vorst, who was barred from the election for allegedly engaging in prohibited campaigning. This decision was later overturned by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), but the election went ahead without Van der Vorst, effectively cementing Kremlev’s position unopposed.

Under Umar Kremlev’s leadership, the IBA has been plagued by allegations of corruption and governance issues, reflecting broader political motivations. The IBA’s dealings with Gazprom, a Russian state-owned energy giant, raised concerns about undue Russian influence over the organisation, particularly amidst geopolitical tensions following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Gazprom’s entanglement with the Kremlin, and its strategic use in foreign policy, suggests that the IBA’s decisions may be influenced by broader Russian political agendas rather than purely sporting concerns.

The disqualification of Imane Khelif, on grounds of her gender, served multiple strategic interests for Russia and the Russian-led IBA. The disqualification came just three days after she had defeated Azalia Amineva, an unbeaten Russian boxer. This disqualification effectively restored Amineva’s undefeated record and ensured that no non-Russian competitor tarnished the reputation of Russian athletes during the championship.

source

2) There are a people here that in previous discussions don't believe that someone born a woman can be a man, who have been calling Khelif a man. This is very funny and causes them some cognitive dissonance when pointed out.

[–]Akatonbo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

whether or not you agree with that, she met the criteria for this competition

Who wouldn't meet those "criteria"? A man too lazy to obtain a fake passport?

We also have no proof that she would fail any more rigorous test

He already failed two tests in Turkey and India ordered by the IBA and a separate test by a Parisian doctor who retested him after disqualification: 'There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes'. Um, I wonder what those hormonal and chromosomal problems might be? Um, can it possibly be that Khelif is, um, um, a MaLe WoMaN? You know, there are female women and MaLe WoMeN, and these latter WoMeN just always happen to have pRoBlEmS with their hOrMoNeS and cHrOmOsOmEs, but them being male totally doesn't make them less of a WoMaN, look at the cheating freak Caster Semenya, his 46 XY 5-ARD and two kids from his wife! And then we also have feline cats and cAnInE CaTS, and of course there are apple apples and oRaNgE ApPLeS.

Do you even hear yourself, Mr. Activist?

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Who wouldn't meet those "criteria"? A man too lazy to obtain a fake passport?

There's no suggestion her passport is fake.

He

You're calling a person assigned female at birth, who has always lived as a female, and has never expressed any gender dysphoria, "he".

That's not what a male is.

already failed two tests in Turkey and India ordered by the IBA

What were those two tests? What were the methodologies? What were the results?

'There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes'.

If you can't say which, then I'm afraid you haven't actually done a test.

What you're talking is bullshit.

Come back when you know what test has been performed, and what it found.

[–]bife_de_lomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

'There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes'.

If you can't say which, then I'm afraid you haven't actually done a test.

It's both. From the article posted above:

“After the 2023 World Championships, where she was disqualified, I took the lead by contacting a renowned endocrinologist at the Paris University Hospital, Kremlin-Bicêtre, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane is indeed a woman, despite her karyotype and testosterone level. He said: "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman. That's all that mattered to us. We then worked with a doctor based in Algeria to monitor and regulate Imane's testosterone level, which is currently in the female standard”

Khelif's own team say that despite the karyotype and testosterone levels they consider him a woman. There would be no "despite" if Khelif was actually a woman. They go on to say that they have been artificially suppressing testosterone, which again they wouldn't need to do if he was really a woman.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's both. From the article posted above:

The one behind the paywall?

I don't believe you.

Khelif's own team say that despite the karyotype and testosterone levels they consider him a woman.

Where do they say that?

Because I don't believe you.

[–]bife_de_lomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You are so lazy it's not surprising your opinions are so ill-informed.

https://archive.ph/8Xni3

Que se passe-t-il après cette annonce coup de tonnerre ? Après les championnats du monde 2023, où elle a été disqualifiée, j'ai pris les devants en contactant un endocrinologue de renom du CHU parisien, Kremlin-Bicêtre, qui l'a examinée. Celui-ci a confirmé qu'Imane est bien une femme, malgré son caryotype et son taux de testostérone. Il a dit : « Il y a un problème avec ses hormones, avec ses chromosomes, mais c'est une femme. » C'est tout ce qui nous importait. Nous avons ensuite travaillé avec une médecin basée en Algérie pour contrôler et réguler le taux de testostérone d'Imane, qui est actuellement dans la norme féminine. Des tests montrent très bien que toutes ses qualités musculaires et autres s'amoindrissent depuis. Actuellement, elle peut être comparée au niveau musculaire et au niveau biologique à une femme-femme-femme.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are so lazy

I spend a lot of energy linking to my sources. For scholarly papers I try to find one that not behind a paywall. But with you I'm asking repeatedly for your source.

So you've got that the wrong way around.

it's not surprising your opinions are so ill-informed.

My opinions are that she met the criteria for entry to the Olympics. That's true, and informed.

You can't change the criteria during the competition. If you think there should be other criteria, there needs to be an agreement on what they are.

That's opinion, but if you think the correct time to chuck someone out of a competition is before their championship bout, then I think you're missing some basic empathy.

https://archive.ph/8Xni3

So, according to this interview with one of the people who worked on her team she's a woman, but "Il y a un problème avec ses hormones, avec ses chromosomes, mais c'est une femme."

We don't know that nature of the problem. And we don't know her karyotype.

Fine. A better source that the IBA, but we still don't know the problem. If whatever she had gave her an advantage then the standard for what a woman is wrt Olympic boxing should be revised.

And we have further confirmation that she's a woman. And it doesn't mean she's not the 2024 women's welterweight boxing Olympic gold medallist.

[–]bife_de_lomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But with you I'm asking repeatedly for your source.

I gave you the source of the interview and ypu stuck your fingers in your ears as said:

I don't believe you

The fact that the interview took place in a paper that has a paywall is no detriment to its utility.

My opinions are that she met the criteria for entry to the Olympics. That's true, and informed.

That's only a half-truth, because while you did say it, it was supplementing your initial position that:

Khelif was assigned female at birth, has lived as a female, and has always competed as a female.

Khelif's sex was incorrectly recorded as female by a doctor who obviously undertook only a glance at the genetalia, and Khelif's male status would have become clear atvmany developmental milestones where medical attention would be sought (no periods, no development of female swcondary sex characteristics etc) and was obvious to the boxing coaches who discovered him. Khelif (or being kind, Khelif's team) know all too well that he is a man.

You can't change the criteria during the competition. If you think there should be other criteria, there needs to be an agreement on what they are.

On this we agree, but the IBA and the WBO informed the IOC about this years ago, certainly in time to act, which shows the IOC have an ideological reason for not wanting to protect the safety of women or the integrity and fairness of women's sports.

if you think the correct time to chuck someone out of a competition is before their championship bout, then I think you're missing some basic empathy.

No, I have empathy for the women Khelif wants to smash in the face.

We don't know that nature of the problem. And we don't know her karyotype.

But in reality there are limited options for what Khelif's karyotype can be, as the remaining options would mean he'd not be able to perform at elite level. The male ones.

And we have further confirmation that she's a woman.

What criteria relevant to sports are the team using? If the passport was the only one they needed to enter the Olympics then why the stupid charade of having undertaken these other endocrinology tests? The gaslighting infuriates me.

[–]Akatonbo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're calling a person assigned female at birth, who has always lived as a female, and has never expressed any gender dysphoria, "he".

Yup, I sure do. Feels liberating to be able to articulate the truth clearly. What, losing your desperate battle without reddit or facebook ideologically captured mods to help you out? Cannot really protect antiscientific lies without being able to report the results of 3 separate medical tests as mIsInFoRmAtIoN and have them wiped out? Feeling uNsAfE yet? Because you should.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What do you think a male is?

[–]Akatonbo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, I totally fOlLOw sCiEnCe on that matter. A male is an organism whose body is structured to support production of sperm, meaning small motile gametes.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A male is an organism whose body is structured to support production of sperm, meaning small motile gametes.

No one is saying that Khelif is male by that definition. If she has some DSD she may not be fertile, but she's got a vagina and she doesn't have testes.

[–]Nintendogirl2[S] 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let's put the Imane Khelif gender/sex debate aside, and ask you a much more question. What is a woman?