Majority of gender-confused children grow out of it by adulthood: Netherlands study

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[–]TheBlackSun 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Wonderful things happen when you leave a child alone.

[–]Jiminy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And men who got curcumsized always wish they hadn't been whether they admit it or not. Related.

[–]GuyWhite 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aw heck. Mutilate them anyways. Because it is the stylish thing to do.

[–]SMCAB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Duh.

[–]LQCincinnatus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5

Here is the actual study.

[–]Hematomato 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (64 children)

That all matches my experience, yeah. Adolescence is confusing.

But:

Only a small minority, approximately 2 percent of respondents, reported feeling less comfortable with their gender than before.

Well, that's one in fifty people, which is a small proportion in relative terms, but also means there are a large number of people like this in absolute terms.

Some liberals want you to believe that gender dysphoria is common and we've just been hiding it for centuries. Some conservatives want you to believe that gender dysphoria barely exists and that kids are being brainwashed into thinking they have an imaginary condition.

The truth is, as it almost always is, somewhere in the middle.

[–]Canbot 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Some conservatives want you to believe that gender dysphoria barely exists and that kids are being brainwashed into thinking they have an imaginary condition.

That they exist does not mean that kids are not being brainwashed into getting it. The mind is a fragile thing and mental illness has been proven to be something that can be induced, especially in children. The fact that gender dysphoria spreads like a social contagion proves that kids are getting mind fucked into getting the disorder.

The truth is not "in the middle". The truth is never in the middle. That is the logical fallacy that makes people gullible fools who believe every single lie, but "not totally" so they think themselves rational and intelligent. Sometimes a lie is a total lie.

I particularly hate that sheep motto because I constantly see (a certain people) telling the most absurd lies imaginable. Always telling lies that are diametrically opposed to reality. Where everyone else tries to pass their lies off by lying as little as possible to not get caught, these people tell the biggest lie they can. Which would be a stupid strategy because the lie is obvious, except that they know stupid people will see the lie but instead of immediately writing it off they use that stupid rule of thumb to believe the lie but to a smaller degree. In the end they are further from the truth than if they totally believed a small lie.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

See, there's a mountain of evidence out there that innate, lifelong gender dysphoria is a real thing that exists, and that it's common enough that most doctors encounter it... but you don't want to look at it. Because you already made up your mind about where you stand, and you think whatever you believe is God's Own Truth and anything that challenges it is an evil, stupid lie.

You just gave a perfect example of why I think partisans are fundamentally braindead - and why the truth tends to lie in the middle.

[–]Canbot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

lifelong gender dysphoria is a real thing that exists

At no point did I say it doesn't, in fact I acknowledged that it exists. Try re reading what I wrote because clearly your biased brain replaced what I wrote with what you expected to hear.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

What you wrote was mostly invective and broad, untargeted accusations of lying. I tried to extract anything resembling a point from it. Maybe I failed, or maybe you just snipped the point about gender dysphoria being not-so-rare to make it look like I failed.

[–]Canbot 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Edited comments have an asterisk. If you seriously think I edited the comment you should consider why you are so wrong. Clearly there is something impeding your ability to understand what I am saying, and to have a good faith discussion about it. You keep accusing me of being biased, but clearly that is your issue. I get the feeling you know someone who is trans, who has already committed to medical intervention, and now you have a mental block that will not allow you to accept that it was a huge mistake.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

No, I don't think you edited your comment. But you replied to "lifelong gender dysphoria is a real thing that exists" without including "and it's common enough that most doctors encounter it." You snipped the second half of the sentence.

You keep accusing me of being biased

Sure, because you're speaking ideologically. You're claiming that there's a one-size-fits-all policy that works best for all trans children and that you know better than doctors what that policy is.

I get the feeling you know someone who is trans, who has already committed to medical intervention, and now you have a mental block that will not allow you to accept that it was a huge mistake.

I know a few trans people, but they're adults and everyone broadly agrees they can do whatever they want to their own bodies.

I don't know any trans children. I'm just aware that "lifelong gender dysphoria" and "playing around with gender as a tween" are two things that both exist, and I stand by my claim that a reasonable person who hasn't been blinded by ideology can tell the difference.

[–]Canbot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Sure, because you're speaking ideologically.

Not a singe argument I have made is ideological.

You're claiming that there's a one-size-fits-all policy that works best for all trans children

Wrong. The evidence shows that the vast majority of trans kids can be cured by allowing normal puberty and aiding with non affirming therapy. That is not my argument, that is the evidence. 90 fucking percent can be cured that way. My argument is that the only moral and intelligent approach is to give everyone the treatment that works for 90% because there is no valid way to know which are the 10% of children for whom it will not work. If anyone ever finds a valid, scientifically provable way to do that then those 10% should not be treated the same way. But to treat all of them as if they are the 10% is reprehensible and does incredible harm to the 90% who could have been cured.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Let me make an analogy for you.

I'm pretty sure we can agree on these two facts:

  1. The vast majority of people arrested and brought to trial are guilty of the crime they're accused of.

  2. There is no objective, 100% reliable way for a jury to know with certainty whether a defendant is guilty or not.

With that in mind, do you think jurors should just go ahead and rule "guilty"? Without even bothering to hear the facts of the particular case?

[–]Canbot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do you think everyone should just be acquitted without trial because there is no reliable way to never convict an innocent person?

Which tactic will be right a majority of the time?

The vast majority of kids put through the trans system as is are experiencing horrific medical malpractice. The cure is being denied them.

If there is some trial that can identify the 10% for whom the system works I have no problem keeping them in he current system. But pulling the baseless claim out of your ass that "you can just tell" is not even close to good enough.

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

True, but as you said, "adolescence is confusing." What makes it even more confusing is activists, politicians, corporations and media telling you you need to make that life-altering choice IMMEDIATELY! Letting biology run its course and allowing children the space to figure out who they are without rushing is the key. Sure, there will still be trans people, they've been around for thousands of years, but people can wait until the dust of childhood/adolescence settles to resort to drastic measures.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

Activists should be aiming for the message that the life-altering choice should be allowed if the child, parents, and doctor are all certain it's the right call.

But, yeah, sometimes they overshoot. Sometimes their message more closely resembles "trans is virtue, cis is bigotry, and doctors are standing by to help you make your choice."

I do not believe the government should ban gender-affirming care for children. It's government overreach. Politicians shouldn't be practicing medicine. Sure, doctors get it wrong sometimes, but politicians get it wrong way more often.

[–]Barcodetilter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

A child can’t possibly be certain that it’s the right call.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I disagree. I think sometimes children can be completely certain about what they want.

Our culture is weird. It says "Children have undeveloped brains so they can't make meaningful decisions. All decisions should be made by their parents. So, kid, what do you want to be when you grow up? And by the way, if you stab someone we'll decide you're adult enough to go to prison."

Anyway, yeah, kids' brains aren't fully developed, but they still know all kinds of stuff, often including their own physiological and psychological needs.

[–]Canbot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think sometimes children can be completely certain about what they want.

Every single one of the children with gender dysphoria is certain, even the 90% who change their mind after puberty.

[–]Canbot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

if the child, parents, and doctor are all certain it's the right call.

No one can be certain that it is the right call because no one can distinguish the 90% of children who grow out of it from the 10% who don't. What is certain is that there is a 90% chance to be right if you choose to allow normal development and non affirming therapy.

Anyone opting for the 10% chance to be right clearly has an agenda that is not in the interest of the child.

[–]Hematomato 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

No one can be certain that it is the right call because no one can distinguish the 90% of children who grow out of it from the 10% who don't.

Of course you can, if you use your own mind instead of relying on your partisan ideology.

If your kid spontaneously says "I'm a girl, not a boy" at age three and consistently believes that for seven straight years, and breaks into tears when people call them a boy, medical intervention is probably warranted.

If your kid comes home and says "My friend Missive is an enby and I think they're so cool and I think I want to be non-binary too and I want to take hormones," you say "How about you just express yourself with fashion until you're eighteen."

I mean, come on. A little critical thinking here.

[–]Canbot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

and breaks into tears when people call them a boy,

There is absolutely zero evidence that this is how it works. There is absolutely zero evidence that the 90% of kids who grow out of it are less sure, or less emotional about it. This is something you pulled out of your ass to desperately cling to your ideology. This is not critical thinking, it is pulling excuses out of your ass.

If you can design a study and prove that you can consistently identify the 10% then I will agree that those 10% should be allowed medical intervention. But not on the basis that you pulled some scenario out of your ass and insist it is true because you are just oh so smart and everyone else is a biased dumb dumb.

Until there is a real way to distinguish the only moral course of action is provide non affirming therapy and allow natural puberty.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There is absolutely zero evidence that this is how it works.

Of course there is. There are plenty of case studies on children with lifelong gender dysphoria, and there's plenty of evidence of tweens being influenced by their friends to gender-bend.

And a reasonable, non-partisan person can tell the difference.

Only one of us is "desperately clinging to ideology" by insisting on an absolutist policy that doesn't take circumstance or context into account. And it isn't me.

[–]Canbot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There are plenty of case studies on children with lifelong gender dysphoria,

Your claim is that you can distinguish which kids will grow out of gender dysphoria and which won't by how emotional they are about being "misgendered". There are no studies about that. You are lying. There is not even a valid way to objectively measure how "sure" someone is or how emotional they are.

You can't just make up any claim that you want and then pretend there is evidence for your bullshit claim because "trans studied exist". That is fucking nuts.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There are case studies on people with lifelong gender dysphoria, which show how some people are certain of their transgender status from pretty much the time they can form words..

I'm getting the sense that what you're really trying to say is "there is no objective, one-hundred percent reliable assay for whether someone will grow out of childhood gender dysphoria."

That, of course, is true. But the perfect is the enemy of the good. The "always assume they'll grow out of it" policy is going to do harm to 10% of patients.

I am quite sure we can do better than that by simply allowing parents and doctors to use their discretion.

[–]Canbot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"there is no objective, one-hundred percent reliable assay

There is nothing with any efficacy. Your claim that you can tell is bullshit. You can't. No one can. None of the studies shows that you can.

If you or anyone had anything like that with any efficacy at all it would be getting used. Instead you are making baseless claims that you can tell with zero evidence, trying to pass of "hur dur trans exist" as evidence. It is not.

allowing parents and doctors to use their discretion.

They can't tell and if they could they would be treating 90% of their patients with non affirming therapy and advising them not to do anything until after puberty. That is not what is happening.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If your kid spontaneously says "I'm a girl, not a boy" at age three

My kid announced that he's a Tyrannosaurus Rex so now I'm looking for a doctor to cut off his arms and implant a tail.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not 100% convinced than any sort of so-called "sex reassignment" is genuinely the best treatment even for severe gender dysphoria, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for adults. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if doctors in the future look back at sex reassignment with the same horror we look at Victorian-era doctors who removed the clitorises of young girls and women to stop them masturbating.

People don't always have a privileged understanding of their own mental state. We all know people who are desperately unhappy, and they think they know why they are unhappy but they are always wrong. I'll be happy if only I change my job. I'll be happy if only I get a boy/girl friend or get married. I'll be happy once I have kids. Or grandkids. I'll be happy if I move to another city. I'll be happy if I could only afford that car. I'll be happy if only ... if only ... if only ...

This is probably why, even before the massive escalation of "transgender" since the mid 2010s, the effectiveness of sex reassignment for ending the depression and suicidal ideation related to sex dysphoria was not great. Sometimes it helps, but often not.

[–]ID10T 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lobotomy should be allowed if the child, parents, and doctor are all certain it's the right call.

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

It's never the right call to interfere with nature unless it's a life-saving measure. Simply delaying these drastic measures until a child is 18 and can make that decision themselves is not life-threatening. I don't care what TRAs say, it's far better to wait until a person has had the opportunity for their body to mature to adulthood for this kind of thing.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Oh, I definitely disagree with that. Nature made me nearsighted. I interfered with it by having eye surgery. It wasn't a life-saving measure. But now I can see fine.

I'm confident that was the right call.

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

What's the risk if you do correct your eyesight? Barring a mistake by the doctor, worst case you have good/normal eyesight. Fucking with children's natural development to support a delusion or worse, a fad is higher stakes. Do kids even get Lasik eye surgery?

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

So it seems that we can agree that "it's never the right call to interfere with nature unless it's a life-saving measure" isn't the real principle here. It's something else.

I agree that it's important not to give children hormones in service of a fad.

I do think it's possible to distinguish between "this child was obviously born trans" and "this child got interested in trans culture during middle school."

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I still don't see what the rush it to make those decisions until they're 18 or older. Is there a way to tell if a child is "obviously born trans?" I'm not talking about intersex, I'm talking about a child who is biologically one sex or the other, but decides they need to transition. There is no good reason to treat that child before they are done physically developing. I'm sorry, just "i feel like boy/girl" is not a compelling reason.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

There are rare, but documented, cases where a child insists they're in the wrong body from about the first moment they can form that sentence, and never wavers from that.

In a case like that, hormones before puberty are almost certainly necessary for that child to live a happy life.

When kids first start questioning their gender during middle school... there's a very strong chance we're just looking at kids responding to culture. And medical treatment is very likely to do harm.

Ultimately, parents and doctors - not politicians - should be able to tell the difference.

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Funny, while we're having this conversation, someone posted this article in the Atlantic about this very topic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/cass-report-youth-gender-medicine/678031/?gift=SKtFP-7gCBnFn1bNJdqPMjMKWqn37bwn6gvlA8nlBfg&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

TL/DR - it states there no evidence either way that puberty blockers accomplish this. I still lean toward letting nature take its course. If my child still felt the same way after their body fully developed, I'd 100% support them (love isn't even in question here; don't care what gender they are). It does make a valid argument not to interfere.

Another pov: I saw this documentary from years ago about parents who had an intersex child (not hermaphrodite, but truly intersex). They raised "her" as a girl from birth. Before puberty (realize this is in the 60s or 70s), doctors advised them to basically flip a coin - boy or girl, and they opted for girl because she had been living that way up until this point in time. Later, after she'd become an adult, physically, she never felt right as a woman. She transitioned to he, and resented their parents for making that call. I didn't care for that part, as a parent, I feel for them especially given the time period where trans wasn't talked about and people just went with doctor's advice with little to no question. He ultimately reconciled with them.

Now in that scenario, the parents interfered with this person's development and it was detrimental. Is that any different than parents entertaining puberty blockers, hormones, or (heaven forbid) surgery for a child who feels they're trans? I don't see a difference and I would opt for waiting until they had naturally developed before I was onboard with anything more drastic than socially transitioning (obviously they'd do what the want when they were 18).

Kids questioning everything is universal. Kids wanting agency over their lives while they're figuring out who they are? Also universal. We don't let them drive before at least 16, drink til 21, vote til 18, or do any number of lessor things adults take for granted either. Why would we just throw that out the window when they can socially transition until they're done developing naturally.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Less comfortable with their gender" does not mean transgender, or to give it the older name, transsexual. Who hasn't been somewhat uncomfortable with their sex at least occasionally? Women have monthly periods, and that's a massive PITA. Guys suffer from fears that they will never be "manly" enough, that their cock is too small, that they won't be able to get it up or last long enough. Everyone wants to break out of social expectations for their sex at least sometimes.

  • Am I too short for a man?
  • Am I too tall for a girl?
  • Why is it us men that are conscripted and sent to die in foreign wars?
  • As a woman, I'm always surrounded by bigger, stronger men who can commit violence to me. I have to always be on my guard.
  • As a man, if I get fat and grow man-boobs, I'll be a laughing stock.
  • As a woman, if I'm too flat-chested, people will think less of me. And if my breasts are too big, they'll think I'm a bimbo.
  • I'm a teenaged boy and I get erections in public and that's embarrassing.
  • I'm a teenaged girl and my breasts are growing and now adult men are looking at me in a scary way.

If you're not sometimes "less comfortable" with your sex, you haven't been paying attention.

There is a psychiatric issue "gender dysphoria" where the person suffers a severe and overwhelmingly level of distress about their sex, and allegedly so-called "sex reassignment" is the most effective treatment for this. Well, maybe so, but it seems strange that gender dysphoria isn't treated like any other form of body dysmorphia (a mismatch between your actual body and your mental sense of how your body should be). The fact that it is even given a distinct name, dysphoria instead of dysmorphia, is a bit weird. But whatever... I'm willing to give doctors the benefit of the doubt that for these severe cases of gender dysphoria in adults maybe sex reassignment is justified.

The problem is that the medical industry sees the $$$$ available and are pushing people to use sex reassignment for ever milder cases of, not dysphoria, but just basic, normal levels of discomfort.

And then there is the elephant in the room. See also https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209

[–]Titanic 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

At least there is a rational reason to want to be taller as a man or prettier as a girl (beauty is good and would make you better off!)

There is ZERO good reason to want to be the other sex, considering both sexes are equal in goodness.

[–]hfxB0oyA 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And the ones without shit parents only have an embarrassing story they'd rather forget.

[–]CivilWarrior 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Millions of humans like millions of cars produced some come out with issues, however this latest gender fad is bullshit lol.

[–]carn0ld03 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If they don't kill themselves.

[–]Karce33 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah duhhhhhhhhh