/s/AltRight_Memes has banned me, without explanation. Read on..

submitted by JasonCarswell from self.censorship

/s/AltRight_Memes has banned me, without explanation.

I suspect it's for not thinking as they do and challenging them on their biases and hypocrisy in their group-think freak-bashing in this post: /s/AltRight_Memes/comments/23sz/societal_decay/

I am no longer free to counter whatever tripe they've said or may yet state.

On the plus side, at least I got a notice (unlike /s/Incels) that I was banned, even if without explanation.

If they don't want public comments on their sub via https://saidit.net/s/all they are free to retract into their own bubble. In my opinion, for the most part, bubbles on SaidIt should be frowned upon for the greater good of the site-wide community.

I grant you I was pushing the envelope with humour, sarcasm, and the bounds of good taste, in what was a tasteless meme, in part to counter their nasty vibe, in part to stretch their imagination, and in part to defend tolerance within reason (not with SJW absurdity).

Is this just more debatable drama nonsense or is it worth calling out unfair banishments? (I'm still unfairly banished from /s/Incels and insist that be resolved, simply on principle.) I bring this up not to bog SaidIt down with more mindless drama, but in hopes of learning how to better deal with narrow-minded hecklers, and perhaps to set some SaidIt precedents. Or maybe to learn I'm way out of line.

I'd post this in /s/SaidItDrama or /s/SaidItPublicForum if there were such a central place to hash out silly shit like this.

I'd like your thoughts on banning me, my cohesive community idea, whether I was pushing the envelop too hard (or not enough), and/or whether it's all just moot nonsense.

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EDIT : I've been restored, thanks to magnora7. Details follow...

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[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    Easy for you to say Froglich, aka Tom's backup harasser alias, with barely a difference between them.

    [–]Froglich 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    We're old friends. ;-)

    [–]TheJamesRocket 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    JasonCarswell. I argue with leftists and SJWs on Reddit every day. I come on Saidit to get away from that bullshit. AltRightMemes is a place where I castigate these people and blow off steam. I'm not interested in having more arguments with SJWs. Such debates are pointless, in any case. I never change their minds, and they never change my mind.

    I don't know why you people feel the need to infiltrate every single forum and pollute it with your politically correct talking points. There are literally a million different places where you can talk about LGBT with other leftists, and get showered with upvotes and praise. But instead, you decide to come to one of the very few forums where people are opposed to LGBT and try to derail the conversation.

    Take a hint: I'm not interested in arguing with you. I do that all the time on Reddit. If I have to come here and deal with more leftists, then that defeats the purpose for me. Coming on to Saidit to fight with SJWs is absurd. The fact that I am forced to deal with you is a tiresome burden.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I'm not defending the SJWs, nor leftists. The SJWs are absurd. Leftists is too broad a category to comment on.

    I'm opposing judgmental-ism and making fun of freaks or different people. Call that politically correct if you want. I call it civil, compassionate, and common decency.

    " _Take a hint: I'm not interested in arguing with you. _ "

    Yet you talk at me. You can't have both. If you don't want a discussion, don't talk. SaidIt is NOT about left and right - it's about anti-extremes. That post was clearly about taking it to absurd extremes.

    Just because I'm not in favour of your position doesn't mean I stand in the one the powers that be prescribe as the "opposing position". Besides being to the left of you, there is up, down, front, back, and even to the right of you that can have different opinions - and that's just a 3D metaphor.

    " The fact that I am forced to deal with you is a tiresome burden. "

    So too, the fact that I am forced to see the negative memes in my daily feed is a fucking tiresome burden.

    [–]xigoi 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    So there are only two kinds of people, extreme rightists and SJWs? Now you're thinking the same way as SJWs.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    That's not what he said.

    But you are correct in the "us vs them" tribalism, and much like SJWs, means that centrists, liberals, conservatives, libertarians, progressives, anarchists, totalitarians, truthers, fakenewsers, etc are also "them" to his tribe, whatever he defines it as.

    [–]sproketboy 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Crybaby.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    I know you are but what am I.

    [–]Chipit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    Isn't barging in to other people's platforms to harass them called harassment?

    When you've got nothing to offer but deliberately provoking a disgust reaction, who does that reflect negatively on?

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    When I see antagonistic memes polluting https://saidit.net/s/all and I care about SaidIt, I have every right to chime in to contribute to the shape of the community at large. If I can stir up some discussion and make some people think for a minute before they sling poop, then great. If they resort to flinging poop, I can play that game too, and better. I don't start with the poop.

    [–]Froglich 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    Isn't barging in to other people's platforms to harass them called harassment?

    When you've got nothing to offer but deliberately provoking a disgust reaction, who does that reflect negatively on?

    This is bad comedy.

    REMINDER: Chipit is a confirmed shill, and is the same character as "SNOW".

    He's a self-hating incel, who is here to disrupt. Chipit is a hypocrite with zero credibility.

    [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    It's hilarious to watch you people witch-hunt. You seriously can't tell the difference between ESL and native speakers?

    [–]bhrbherwRhbe 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Interesting post, insightful to learn about.

    Filter bubbles are such a strange social phenomenon. It doesn't seem to be a conspiracy or intentional plan of any groups, but rather a natural tendency that arises in a wide variety of styles of social network. On Reddit, for example, one could argue they were created to expand the range of discussion, to counter the original "reddit hivemind" where all discussions had a single upvoted viewpoint. As subreddits became moderated towards more narrow focus, they split and segregated, but now more total viewpoints can be discussed. However, what is lost is a place for these viewpoints to be opposed.

    Perhaps it plays an allegory to how the value of diversity comes not from how we are similar, but how the differences allow us to see more total perspectives than we could access alone.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Also very insightful.

    " However, what is lost is a place for these viewpoints to be opposed. "
    Do you mean on Reddit? I would hope all viewpoints can be discussed and even opposed on SaidIt.

    " Perhaps it plays an allegory to how the value of diversity comes not from how we are similar, but how the differences allow us to see more total perspectives than we could access alone. "
    Sounds like a quote from some epic historical figure.

    [–]bald-janitor 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    Boohoo

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Deep, as per usual.

    [–]useless_aether 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    i use reddit as a punch bag, so i can be nice to people here :-)

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    LOL. I don't use Reddit. You get the best and cursed of me.

    Might be a good informal policy though, for those who swing.

    [–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

    Pretty sure that hamster thumbnail is actually a squirrel.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    I hadn't noticed the file name. I just linked to it. Gopher, badger, beaver, hamster, squirreler - it was just the best "Nooooo!" image handy.

    [–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    The Saidit community will hold you fully responsible for... for any blowback.

    You don't fuck with squirrels.

    [–]bobbobbybob 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (17 children)

    you set up a straw man then ranted about your goat fucking proclivities.

    drama queen

    [–]bald-janitor 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    He is our next snow with gooder grammar

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

    And I won. Check mate.

    [–]magnora7 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (12 children)

    Don't be like this.

    Remember when we had that big argument that almost ended in you getting banned several months ago? I haven't forgotten... you're still on thin ice and I don't like to see you stirring drama like you are. You still have 2 strikes from before.

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't like to see you stirring drama like you are.

    But bbbbbobo's actual harassment sub is just fine and dandy?

    https://saidit.net/s/retards/

    The absolute state of hypocrisy of the saidit admins smh

    /u/d3rr

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

    I was/am in the right.

    But you are correct, it doesn't behoove me to gloat or respond to idiocy, so I will stop responding to most of them. For the record, I didn't intend to stir drama. I commented, and they reciprocated, and before you know it there's a cyclical whirlwind of tit for tats. (Meanwhile no one gets censored for name calling. Meh.)

    2 strikes? Where is the second one from? And I still think the summer threat was very unfair. I'm far from the only one who thinks so. I'm willing to have a public review and discord about it all, now that it's been unblocked, but I don't think either of us really wants that. I guess my hopes of a long anticipated apology just evaporated.

    [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

    I didn't intend to stir drama

    Then why did you make this big dramatic public post, instead of simply contacting the admins when you were banned?

    If only your actions lined up with your intent.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    I simply hadn't considered just contacting you alone. It's that simple.

    I'm still unjustly banned from /s/Incels after mentioning it MANY times, to no avail. Further, you're simply not approachable. I've asked you many things and been ignored or been unsatisfactorily responded to. I'm totally okay with that, as I know you have a tremendous amount on your plate with mammoth responsibilities and better things to do. But it's not all about you or me, and that's also why I opened it up for community discussion and awareness. Sure, yours is the ultimate opinion on this site, but others have valuable insights too, and where you might be absent (and I can't read minds), maybe others might be able to weigh in and fill me in on things I may not have considered, especially when occasionally playing around and pushing a few buttons in a seemingly unbridled sea of name calling and shit posting (which you'll have a hard time finding from me).

    Getting constructive criticism rarely comes without the excessive drama, something you'd think I'd have learned by now. That's why my intentions and actions aren't perfectly aligned on target.

    If I'm banned from anywhere else I'd like to know about it, not because I plan to post there, but for the principle of freedom against unjust bans. Maybe I might even deserve it on a sub one day, and I can handle that, if I were to break their stated rules.

    It's this principle that made me think it was worth posting and sharing. And you even came up with an interesting new policy (potentially) that IMO might help SaidIt tremendously. That didn't come from nowhere.

    As far as all this attention goes, it was not my goal for it to explode. I expected this to be ignored as much as the dozens of far more important or entertaining things I've posted with more effort put into them. Had they been noticed, perhaps I wouldn't have employed all the click-baitery (ie. the squirrel).

    I am guilty of this: I am naive and foolish to not realize by now that people, including SaidIt, will glom on to the most salacious and controversial tidbit and steer it into the side of a mountain of crap to mud-wrestle until distracted by the next feeding frenzy.

    [–]magnora7 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

    will glom on to the most salacious and controversial tidbit and steer it into the side of a mountain of crap to mud-wrestle until distracted by the next feeding frenzy.

    Yeah you're the one doing this the most out of anyone on this entire website, hence the strikes. This is the entire reason we have the pyramid of debate.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    What do you propose I do?

    [–]FormosaOolong 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    Though you didn't ask me, may I suggest you take responsibility for your part in all these blow-ups? By responsibility I do not mean "blame"--I mean take a look at the way you are going into peoples' houses and telling them how much you don't like their house or the way they keep it.

    Free speech means you are not persecuted for your views; it doesn't mean saying what you want whenever you want with no regard for the circumstance. When you start shaking the wasp's nest, expect to get stung.

    It might be a good idea to simply lick your wounds and go play in the sunnier spots of this bright atmosphere.

    [–]magnora7 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    Stop creating drama? Stop antagonizing other people? Stop posting gross non-sequiturs? Follow the pyramid of debate?

    Those would be great starting points.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    It would be nice if the pyramid of debate applied universally. Every "downward" response I gave wasn't invented from nowhere.

    Looking back it's extremely easy to say, "Oh, I should have stopped there and been the bigger person," to the many who felt they needed to pile on.

    In the moment I'm just replying in kind, sometimes in defense, occasionally to challenge their stances, and often to try to help them rethink things if they're capable. I wasn't thinking about accumulating drama - which is never done alone. But I can make an effort to consider the grander scheme.

    I didn't start antagonizing people. The opposite. I don't know what you mean by gross non-sequiturs.

    As far as "creating drama", that's a broad concept. I was unbanned. Many folks learned more about the mod rules and other SaidIt norms. And a new policy is under consideration. Some good things have happened here. Drama happens. It's seeded, and sometimes nurtured, but not really created. I certainly don't do this every day, every week, or every month, so it's hardly a habit much less strategy. If I could predict it I could certainly try to stop it.

    I do abide the pyramid. And I'll try to keep your points in mind.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [removed]

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (72 children)

      I'd like your thoughts on banning me, my cohesive community idea, whether I was pushing the envelop too hard (or not enough), and/or whether it's all just moot nonsense.

      I would especially like /u/magnora7 and /u/d3rr to chime in.

      [–]magnora7 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (66 children)

      He got a strike for banning you and another user, and you've been unbanned.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (36 children)

      Thanks.

      And /s/Incels (plural)?

      I don't want for anyone to be punished with a strike. I just want 1) to be free and 2) them to be wise mods or hands off.

      I also wonder if I pushed it too far, especially over something I care so little about. I just thought it was lively banter with hyper-conservative types. Generally that's a sport I abstain from, but now and then I get irked with all the judgmental negativity.

      I know I'm a hypocrite for judging their flood of negative judgmental content polluting up #all. Divisive judgmentalism. Doing nothing seems like a condoning pass, while an occasional discussion seems like a reasonable effort to throttle it. What do you think?

      [–]Tom_Bombadil 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

      I don't want for anyone to be punished with a strike. I just want 1) to be free and 2) them to be wise mods or hands off.

      Ha! Jason simply wants to be free; to poop in other people's intellectual pools.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

      I don't intend to poop unless the post is already flinging poop, and when I do, it's to fertilize their minds for a more beautiful pool. There's more than enough I don't even bother with.

      No one's poop smells like roses, but I try to keep it to a minimum with a modicum of decorum. It would be so easy to go dark and/or for the jugular, intellectually, creatively, or otherwise - but I don't.

      [–]bobbobbybob 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

      fuck off with your superior bullshit. You are slinging poop. by your own admission. A mindless chimp, out of his depth and making dumb noises and throwing shit whilst shagging other chimps and thinking your a nobel laureate.

      Decorum is a word you don't understand, and could never embody. I'd love to see you try to 'go for the jugular'. I doubt you even know where it is.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

      I didn't say I wasn't slinging poop. No less with bobbobbybob, the self appointed king of the poop slinger apes who grunts the most, the purest embodiment of decorum.

      I went for your jugular but you turned quickly and gave me a deep French kiss, our tongues entwined and I realized I'd never played tonsil hockey with such a rugged macho brute before as you pulled me closer in your embrace out pitched tents collided in a swashbuckling frenzy...

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Like you didn't just sling shit in my thread for no reason when I asked for a simple movie or show recommendation?

      [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      I didn't 'sling shit' at all. I responded for your request for recommendations by giving you two:

      Don't watch Netflix, for their mindfuckery is subtle and If you find a good show based on reviews, pirate it.

      Totally on topic and answering your question.

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      No, I asked for people to share their favorite series and movies that are on Netflix (as I don't own cable) with me as recommendations, and you said:

      "Delete Netflix.

      Your mind is not subtle enough to resist the constant attacks on it woven through their programming.

      If there is a movie or show that you want to watch after reading reviews - then pirate them

      asking on a free speech site for recommendations on what to headfuck yourself with will always get replies like mine."

      I didn't ask for your opinion on whether I should keep or delete Netflix (or your opinion on "head-fucking"), or for you to comment on my "mind and it's ability to resist programming". And pirating movies and shows has nothing to do with the topic either (it's actually illegal and against SaidIt's ToS), since I'm looking for recommendations on what shows/movies to watch since I know of none that are good at the moment.

      "fuck off with your superior bullshit."

      You can pretend, but that's exactly what you did in my thread; came in with your superior bullshit that was completely uncalled for. There's a difference between exercising free speech and being a dick for no reason.

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

      while an occasional discussion seems like a reasonable effort to throttle it

      That's what the strikes are

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

      Magnora, you know I've never had a problem with anyone here (or anyone here me, honestly.. I've only had positive interactions and conversations/debates in the last 4 months). But the negativity and shit-slinging really needs to stop.

      I don't know much about Jason or his views, but I do agree with him about this:

      "Yet you talk at me. You can't have both. If you don't want a discussion, don't talk. SaidIt is NOT about left and right - it's about anti-extremes. That post was clearly about taking it to absurd extremes."

      I've noticed more and more, people are no longer ignoring things they don't like/aren't interested in, and instead they're attacking and insulting.

      I've also noticed people are now discouraging discussion for petty one or two-liners. I really liked this site and thought it was a fit for me after years on Voat, but something is going wrong and the Pyramid of Debate is not being upheld imo :\ This whole thread is an example of that.

      [–]magnora7 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

      I want it to be lessened as well, but how? I guess I can become more hard-nosed about applying the pyramid of debate, but that's just going to result in many bans and a lot of angry users saying they were banned unjustly... the shit-slinging is a form of attack against saidit, and I recognize it as such, but the attack works because it's hard to differentiate destructive shit-slinging from a normal user having a bad day.

      If you were me, what would you do to resolve the negativity and shit-slinging? I'm open to hearing new tactics and ideas.

      Part of me just thinks that maybe it's impossible not to have when we're trying to have the full spectrum of ideas here, there will be disagreements. And that's fine. But it's just a decorum issue, and I don't know how to force people to have good decorum.

      I'm kind of thinking of maybe someday starting a second saidit-like website alongside saidit, but with very strict decorum rules. Like floor-of-the-senate levels of decorum. Similar to hackernews. Would there be interest in this? Then we can have the best of both worlds

      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

      Hey! Sorry to interject here in between conversations. But I was browsing around looking for meaning... or something. Surfing basically. And having played different roles around saidit, as a general gun-slinger, productive participant and an overall nuisance with numerous account deletions.

      I've gathered a bit of understanding from the issues here in maintaining etiquette, and wanted to throw out a quick tip if it could be of any benefit.

      Your best bet might be to start from the ground-up in working with these problems, probably in the form of Education and re-enforcement with behavior and maybe some structural changes for self-referencing options. But of-course, it will take time to develop that protocol in a way that works.

      Rather than getting ban heavy from the top down; which this place with mods and admins are not (thankfully!).

      The challenges that you face are somewhere along these lines:

      Factions that post extremist content, diverse audiences liable to get triggered upon extremist content, hence the muck-racking and people lapsing judgement due to a poor referencing for proper behavior.

      A decent way to fill the gap might be with an education protocol that is both intensive or intuitive. Referenced quickly and repetitively in/on the site itself. In the form of like a (ewww I can't believe I'm about to say this:) Nanny or something as a voice of conscience built in. Because people go blank and will often lose themselves in the virtual over issues and half of your users are probably teenagers. You've seen it already.

      How about an educational video that you have to watch pertaining to the pyramid of debate before receiving an account? Or include a creative test for it?

      Or Having real examples of valid and invalid content that are encouraged/discouraged.

      General tips of staying cool when in disagreement.

      Some changes to the back-ground design template with a visible pyramid of debate? Encouraging objectivity and civility.

      All that being said however, there still needs to be place for some humor- especially creative humor!

      Like Why is Donald trump trying to build a wall to keep the Mexicans out when Newer Mexicans will be born inside it everyday, anyway! Hugh?

      So overall, the site should seek to balance out extremes in posting, and in commenting through encouraged quick references on the site itself to maintain that order. Without compromises on liberty because abundance of self-resources is the key to freedom! Not the constraint of resources with defeated thinking.

      And there needs to be more room for creative humor!

      Like where did the one-legged waitress who self-identified as an attack helicopter, finally get employment after months of looking for a job to sustain her two children- Apache and Raptor, after kicking her drug habit?

      Ihop.

      Welp, I tried round here.. I ain't tellin' ya what to do but keep your ground level so everyone can be on your platform. Good luck! And see you on a different account perhaps.

      Edit: Also, if none of that stuff works... fuck it, go hitler-stalin (Hitlin? Staler?) and ban everything or w/e. Pinging /u/d3rr in case he cares (Prolly not :P)

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Thanks for the thoughtful ideas! I think unfortunately the problem is not lack of awareness. Many people who act like that will do it even if they're perfectly aware they're doing it. Some (maybe even most) people do it with the intent of irritating others and upsetting the system. Most of the people we have problems with are like this, so programs that encourage awareness probably won't actually diminish the problem, and in fact might encourage more fighting as users will attempt to police each other's behavior more. So it's not a bad idea, but I think in a practice a different approach is needed.

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Hmm.. I've assumed hostilities to be more knee-jerk than pre-meditated. But it could be an underestimation.

      And from what I can assess, you eventually need better practices from users but I'll leave it to you to figure it out then. Good luck!

      [–]magnora7 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

      Hmm.. I've assumed hostilities to be more knee-jerk than pre-meditated. But it could be an underestimation.

      I had this same underestimation when I first came in to being a saidit admin.

      However an additional consideration is that even if it is knee-jerk, sometimes making them aware of it still doesn't help, because they're angry in that very moment. This is an instance where I think like a 72 hour ban might be a good thing to have. We don't have the functionality of timer bans, but that is something we could potentially build someday.

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

      I know, it's honestly a tough scenario.. I feel like if there isn't some form of password protection or secrecy, this is bound to happen on any discussion-based website that gains traction over time on the internet now. At first you mold the website, then the community it attracts molds it into what they want.

      If I were in your shoes, to be honest, I'd probably ban users who purposefully create conflict after a warning (which is why I'm not the owner of a website like this lol). But if you go on a banning tirade, you'd risk your reputation and your website's reputation. Building a second website alongside SaidIt could work, but would there be people who want to switch over? Use both? Would it be worth all the effort?

      In vein of that last idea you had, would it be possible to create something like Reddit's "Lounge"? Possibly a set of SubSaidIt's, protected under a "secret section" of the website that is only visible to certain accounts who have applied for/been given invites/access to it, or obtained a certain amount of karma (possibly a karma threshold for access to keep trolls/spammers out)? It could include maybe 5-10 SubSaidIt's modded by you and d3rr (the quality of users would be high, so drama would be low), the SubSaidIt's could be re-makes of the most popular SubSaidIt's on SaidIt's main-site (with the attractive point being, you get all of the same and potentially better content, minus the negativity and attacks), and included maybe a miscellaneous post section for discussing/sharing whatever? It's really the only thing I could think of, outside of your partner-website (which still, I'd be interested in).

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

      I'd probably ban users who purposefully create conflict after a warning

      Not a bad idea, but how do you define that exactly? What if two users are simply disagreeing over a political point? That's obviously not ban-worthy, but could be viewed as "creating conflict". You know what I mean? Is there a less subjective way to define what creating conflict means exactly? This is basically the intent of the pyramid of debate, to give us an objective metric to judge situations by. Maybe it's possible to create a "levels of causing conflict" which would be similar. Some types of causing conflict are more deliberate and harmful than others, and if there were some way of objectively evaluating that with a metric, then maybe this is a solvable problem.

      Building a second website alongside SaidIt could work, but would people want to switch over? Would it be worth all the effort?

      Well the beautiful thing is that it wouldn't be much extra effort at all. We already have all the machinery and know-how to make a second saidit in like 2 hours... no joke. And being admin for 2 sites is not that much different from being admin of 1 big site... Maybe I should do it. Some people might use both sites, who knows. Saidit wasn't much at first either, but now 2 years later...

      In vain of that last idea you had, would it be possible to create something like Reddit's "Lounge"? Possibly a set of SubSaidIt's, protected under a "secret section" of the website that is only visible to certain accounts who have applied for/been given invites to it, or obtained a certain amount of karma (possibly a karma threshold for access to keep trolls/spammers out)?

      Yeah that's not a bad idea, but honestly it might be easiest to have that on another website entirely rather than just one sub on this site. I'd rather it not be a "fringe" thing if possible, hidden in a private sub somewhere, I'd like it to be valued community that is front and center in its own domain.

      Unfortunately karma screening is not a great way to keep out trolls, many will slow-play accounts to get past karma thresholds, and then start trolling. Maybe the new partner website could be invite-only at first, for people who have proven they post quality things on saidit?

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      We already have all the machinery and know-how to make a second saidit in like 2 hours... no joke.

      In that case, I say go for it if you feel up to it! Like I said, I'd be interested, and if it doesn't take up too much time, it isn't really like you have much to lose.. I also get what you mean about wanting a valued, respected community over a fringe one.

      Maybe the new partner website could be invite-only at first, for people who have proven they post quality things on saidit?

      I like this idea a lot, it is a better idea than mine and I think if everything were to work out properly, be more rewarding.

      As for conflict, this, I consider conflict: https://saidit.net/s/whatever/comments/24sa/netflix_recommendations_please/

      I asked for any good recommendations in s/whatever for a movie or TV show, and that's the response I got. I will admit I made a 4th rude comment in return, but it was petty so I removed it along with the thread. But if you're opting to make an extension of SaidIt, or a partner site to it that takes conversation more seriously and isn't as negative, I'm all for it.

      I don't see any reason a person should be attacked for asking for media recommendations in an off-topic/whatever SubSaidIt.

      What if two users are simply disagreeing over a political point?

      Two users disagreeing and debating or having a discussion, is not creating conflict - that's communication, even if there's a disagreement, you don't have to resort to attacks as they never get your point across anyway, they're just petty. I'm all for healthy conversations, debates and disagreements. But random attacks, or attacking someone because you don't agree with them? You're better off moving on/ignoring them.

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Yeah I know what you mean. Maybe we'll give the new website a try someday soon. I need a good name, and a domain that's available for less than $20/yr though... let me know if you have any ideas.

      [–]Jesus-Christ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I asked for any good recommendations in s/whatever for a movie or TV show, and that's the response I got.

      This is honestly why I don't really bother asking those types of questions anymore, some users respond with shitty negative responses for the sake of being shitty and negative. I've tried creating similiar discussion in the past, but most people ignore it and the ones that don't are there purely to be dickheads about it which is just unnecessary .

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      The initial round of banning the shittiest users will be the worst. But if it's kept up, then that will surely change the character of SaidIt. If you ban the dynamic and interesting occasional offenders then you also risk neutering the character of SaidIt, possibly resulting in a bland site. However, if the worst are gone maybe the rest won't bother to stoop anymore.

      IMO, it's worth the risk to the reputation to shape up or ship out. Ideally done with an announcement and maybe clean slates for everyone. (An announcement section in the top right side bar would be a perfect place to link such an announcement post.)

      If there was a second site, then there's be no risk to reputation. Didn't know about the Reddit "Lounge" (not to be confused with the Chat Lounge).

      These VIP subs could have many pros but I can think of too many cons to bother listing.

      Another thing Enza, that you may or may not be aware of, is their efforts to decentralize SaidIt. Goldfish(sp) is working on it. If SaidIt were federated then many people could host their own, and join whatever instances they liked or were invited to. Beyond that maybe someone might figure out a way to host SaidIt instances for people who would want to cultivate their own communities, including cutting out those not wanted. This might develop into bubble culture for many, yet for many others they could still co-mingle, pick and chose who they hang with, view reputations and Venn diagrams, etc. Also, in this way the VIP could be selected, like Tilde does.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      However, if the worst are gone maybe the rest won't bother to stoop anymore.

      Dude, we're so pissed we're literally deleting our own accounts.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      LOL

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      If I were you, I'd ask the community at large for solutions on issues in a dedicated public forum sub. You can embrace, discard, or mull over all their suggestions on how to govern better. More brains is better. Doesn't mean you loose your clear vision.

      Initial topics could obviously be pyramid discipline, what defines decorum, what defines sliding, what defines shit-slinging/posting. Having solid examples will help clarify and sharpen the big grey line.

      Maybe like stepping in the gutter or grey line might happen on occasion, those who dwell there can be asked to leave. Again, defining "dwelling" should be discussed too.

      I like the elevated second SaidIt idea. A lot. Hopefully it would minimize memes and such. I wouldn't be tempted to engage or preach or sling, and would likely migrate most of my efforts there. But IMO, it would be starting with a couple disabilities unless 1) there were clearly defined rules 2) with a democratic forum to discuss the governing. That doesn't mean you'd lose your ultimate power veto, it just means things can be discussed with hopes for effective improvements and evolutions.

      Also, IMO, the subs should be voted upon - for their naming conventions, topic-worthiness, classifications, etc. to avoid repeats, unwise decisions, spontaneous impulses, and infinite empty or rarely used subs - if those are things to avoid.

      All this and more could/should be discussed in a next-level sub about the potential and development of a spin off. Your code and administration are great, but your community is your greatest asset and should be mined for their precious ideas that you can cultivate and steer.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      If I were you, I'd ask the community at large for solutions on issues in a dedicated public forum sub.

      Many people have for a long time proposed many things and been promptly shut down based on subjective and unevenly applied feels. A lot of people were directly invited here by magnora through other sites (myself from listening to him on a podcast) and feel tricked after spending some time on the site and seeing how he admins it.

      Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

      Initial topics could obviously be pyramid discipline, what defines decorum, what defines sliding, what defines shit-slinging/posting. Having solid examples will help clarify and sharpen the big grey line.

      "More rules won't work" -Pretty much /u/magnora7

      Unless he has changed his stance, a suggestion of a site governed by rules, evenly applied demands to behaviour and respectful debate is really shady.

      Is there any reason to believe such an action wouldn't be just a containment sub to keep people busy bitching in a single place that can be ignored?

      I like the elevated second SaidIt idea. A lot.

      That's probably the only time I've seen magnora come up with a suggestion that is based on evenly applied rules and that makes me very weary of it.

      But I'm not going to deny that the user revolt that's been going on for the last few weeks could have convinced him that people aren't naturally inclined to behave, and more rules than "be nice" is required

      Cautiously optimistic.

      Your code and administration are great,

      Code and customization of existing software solutions are top notch. Administration is more shit than a turd in a septic tank.

      your community is your greatest asset and should be mined for their precious ideas that you can cultivate and steer.

      Very well said!

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

      high opinion of your own puerile, low iq shite, my dear.

      YOU decided the content was negative and judgemental. YOU outed your own shadow, your hatred, your judgement. The rest of us just chuckled at the memes.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      At least I can admit it, hypocrite in kind.

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      admit what? That you are a pointless troll with no reason to exist but piss people off and claim the moral high ground?

      [–]shadow_wolf7 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

      so you punished a mod for banning someone from their own sub?

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

      Yes we have 4 mod rules that we enforce, in order to prevent the echo-chamber mod-fiefdom situation that occurred on reddit: https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/w6s/saidit_rules_for_moderators/

      The subs belong to the users, not to the mods. Letting mods go nuts with power is why reddit is now so broken.

      [–]TheJamesRocket 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

      Moderators should have the right to choose who participates on their forum. We shouldn't be forced by default to listen to the inane drivel of leftists. Their rhetoric has subsumed the entire internet and been enshrined. Why does it need to be given a place here on Saidit? Especially when SJWs are responsible for getting so many of us banned from other websites (thus necessitating the creation of Saidit in the first place)?

      This website is a bastion of free speech, true. But the only people who have been systematically denied that privilege has been conservatives. That is where Saidit draws its core audience from. We are being done a disservice by being forced to tolerate SJWs and their verbal diarrhea.

      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

      subs only have to tolerate it if it's on topic and in good faith. it seems that jason got banned after an on-topic good faith argument with a mod took a turn for the worse.

      if a sub really wants to keep out dissenting opinion, it needs to be clearly stated in the sub rules, like /s/incels does (rule 3)

      edit: imo. this is my interpretation on the existing policy, it's not up to me.

      [–]bobbobbybob 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

      he went off topic really fast, actually. regaling us with tales of his sexual perversions

      [–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      He also removed /u/newguy who was just arguing a point. The strike that mod got was not just all about Jason. Look at the modlog for that sub

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      so you support the trolling of a sub by a sexual deviant?

      Whatever, Magnora. JC deserved his ban, he's trash

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

      Actually, it was never off topic.

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

      your sexual activity is ALWAYS off topic

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      Actually, this sub is all about "censorship". I'm mod of /s/Sex. I'm always on topic. Ask me and I'll tell you all about it.

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

      if a sub really wants to keep out dissenting opinion, it needs to be clearly stated in the sub rules

      I agree with this, but then I think maybe the 'show on /all' box should then be unchecked for the sub, also similar to incels. Maybe we could make this official policy if you agree.

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      Fine with me, I donno what's best. This is the old "changing topics with sub rules" discussion from the mod rules launch.

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Alright we'll give it a try then. Maybe once we get the similar 'show on /new' sub checkbox, we can add it to that same rule

      [–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Here's the mod rule I just added. I changed 4 to 4a, and then added 4b:

      4a) Mods cannot remove user comments that are both in good faith and on-topic.

      4b) Mods CAN remove opposing opinions that are high on the pyramid of debate, and ban those users on that sub, if and only if the 2 following conditions are met: 1: The fact the sub removes opposing opinions is announced in the sub's sidebar. 2: The mods uncheck the sub setting "allow this sub to appear on /all"

      What do you think?

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      I'm still on the fence about requiring hiding from /s/all. The rule reads clearly though.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I like this idea, a lot. Makes all this hyperdrama almost worth it.

      [–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Moderators should have the right to choose who participates on their forum

      You can, as long as you follow the saidit mod rules. We want to avoid echo-chambers here, because that's what destroyed reddit. If your ideology is so weak it cannot tolerate any questioning or differing opinions, then it's not a very good ideology.

      But the only people who have been systematically denied that privilege has been conservatives.

      False. And when you try and deny others their free speech based on your victimhood, you're no better than those you claim to despise.

      We have higher standards here on saidit for free speech and open debate, and we will not allow you to censor others simply because you got yourself in to a mod position. These are the rules. https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/w6s/saidit_rules_for_moderators/

      All you have to do, is tolerate dissenting opinions. Not asking a lot here.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I'm an admin on InfoGalactic.com, and mod of /s/InfoGalactic - the Vox Day owned site, author of "SJWs Always Lie", and a notable Alt-Right figure/"leader".

      If you look at my posts and comments you'll realize I'm hardly an SJW, nor am I Alt-Right. I'm more of a anti-authoritarian progressive centrist of the Anarcho-Marxist and Libertarian ilk. I suspect that is also the core audience of SaidIt, folks who aren't dogmatically attached to tribes.

      This website is a bastion of anti-extremism.

      There are several other sites for the alt-right. Voat, Poal, Phuks, Opie&Anthony, etc. And then of course, Vox Day has SocialGalactic and Unauthorized.TV in addition to InfoGalactic, among others in a sea of options.

      [–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      the sub needs rules on sexual exhibitionism

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      So post them in the sidebar.

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

      not my sub, but i sure hope the mod is listening.

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

      remind me to troll your posts with unwanted tales of my sexual adventures in the name of free speech

      [–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Better than creating alt-right echo chambers that ban anyone who says anything against the mod's wishes.

      It wasn't just about jason, that same mod also banned another user for basically disagreeing with the hivemind he apparently wants to build on the sub. It's not acceptable

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      sure, we have to prevent the echo chambers, but Jason set out to be a dick, sexualised a subject for no good reason and just shat all over the place. (by his own admission). His 'woe is me victim' post was obviously something he was aiming to be able to write.

      He's a fucking troll

      [–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Yes but again the mod banned another user at the same time too, so it's not just about jason

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      you were ranting on about how you liked to fuck freaks and goats. you were also constructing farcical straw men so you could accuse all alt-righters of being nazis.

      go suck yourself off (something you've also told us that you do)

      faggot

      You obviously only came to troll, then you reeeeeeee'd when you were called out.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      I never said I liked to fuck goats. And everyone knows punk chicks are the best in bed. I said absolutely nothing about Nazis or strawmen. Now you're just making shit up.

      I can't suck myself off anymore, and it was not comfortable when I could.

      I'm not a faggot, though you might think so because I was bi-curious for a while. The vast number of women I had kind makes that smaller number of men moot though.

      I never "reeeeeeee'd".

      I was never "called out".

      I was banned unjustly, and I was reinstated by the law of the land.

      [–]bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      "I'm not a faggot,"

      Except you'd happily have a threesome not caring about what sex the people are....

      nohomo, honest.

      [–]RuckFeddit 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

      You people are deranged, all of you that are taking part in this shitshow that has infested the internet like a cancer. Seek therapy.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

      "You people" who?

      [–]RuckFeddit 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

      This "alt-right" vs. "ultra left" nonsense. You look like morons.

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      They are alt-right. I'm neither, but label everyone not in their tribe as ultra-left. I was trying to bring it back to center. And failed evidently.

      [–]RuckFeddit 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

      If you're trying to bring it to the center by using media coined phrases like "alt-right" you're destined to fail. These supposed "political beliefs" were designed to split the left and right even further. What's the one thing that can unite both? contempt for government corruption, the Israeli government and the power AIPAC holds in the US along with their sway with the rest of the world. The alt-right was specifically painted as irrationally hating all foreign races for a reason, along with the left being presented as being psychotically obsessed with racial diversity. The left and right used to align on certain issues, such as Israel, but now they hate eachother so much, even more than their puppet masters, because of race politics being pushed HARD from 2012 or so onwards (cops shooting supposedly innocent black men etc.)

      Consequently Israel has vanished from the narrative now, closing potential discourse that could merge the bubbles people have been carefully split into.

      The left and the right both want one thing, to remove corruption, the current elite and to re-establish order.

      These groups (alt-right, ultra-left) are more often than not either controlled opposition, paid posters or ideologues. We should interact with neither and hopefully this fad will die because otherwise you're promoting the divide and conquer operation even more. The vast majority of natural people involved in political discourse (shitposting on facebook) now have only really been active in it since the race politics shit began again (2012/2013/2014), so their view is totally skewed. That goes for boomers, who were even later to the party and zoomers. They've never had their moments of clarity, never seen how they got caught up in an idea and refused to acknowledge facts. These people have to learn eventually, and even just some of them coming to the revelation that the entire system is designed to control and crush them could have a majorly positive influence on our future.

      Also a centrist btw.

      To add: I hate the boomer vs zoomer vs millenial nonsense, it wasn't meant in a derogatory way. Just an easy way to describe the voting groups.

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