all 35 comments

[–]teelo 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

And then theres people coming here just so they can make a community and ban others.

Edit: Case in point. Whatever you commented here, the moderators removed it: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/53op/parallels_black_lives_matter_feminism/j5ay

You've escaped censorship to arrive onto another platform of censorship.

[–]SavvyDiogenes 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

  1. A debate sub for GC will be made soon. Discussions should go there.
  2. This isn't even the official GC sub. The old mods are planning something else.

[–]teelo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

And the relevance of your comment is...?

[–]SavvyDiogenes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Because you literally mentioned the GC sub? Did you read your own comment?

[–]teelo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

I did. But did you?

[–]SavvyDiogenes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The people being banned from GC are either trolls or there to start up debate, when the sub is clearly, as stated in the sidebar, not a debate oriented sub. A debate sub will come soon.

You mentioned GC banning users, and I explained why.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

The people being banned from GC are either trolls or there to start up debate

I disagree. There was content removed for ideological reasons, like people being able to complain about "antisemitism" but content pointing out abuse of the term "antisemitism" was removed. Similarly there was a great deal of censorship of non-hateful content to keep content in line with LGB dogma.

Here are some comments about things that were removed.

All I am asking is that GC is transparent about and follows its own rules regarding censorship. The same thing GC was disappointed in reddit for not doing.

[–]SavvyDiogenes 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Had antisemitic comments or anti-LGB comments been allowed to stay we would've been terminated 1 week after the sub's creation. And antisemitism and anti-LGB is off topic for GC, as it is a radfem sub - and off topic discussions, as per GC's rules both on saidit and the rules we had on reddit, are banned.

For example, we only bring up LGB in 3 occasions - when talking about the cotton ceiling or boxer ceiling (cotton ceiling = trans women complaining that lesbains won't sleep with them because lesbians don't like dick. Boxer ceiling is the same but for gay men and trans men), when talking about harassment lesbians(=women) may face, and yes - talking about women is on topic for a radfem sub, and when pointing out that gay men are not exempt from misogyny.

And I do not see how antisemitism could be brought up in a discussion about radfeminism. As for complaints about antisemitism - as all complaints towards the "GC community" from other GC members were allowed to stay, so were these posts. As for the complaints in the post linked - I'm sure that was just the mods trying to save their asses and the sub - the mods always tried to respect reddit's sitewide rules, and that would include removing and maybe banning those sort of opinions, regardless of the existence or lackthereof of proof.

And I saw your comment in the post - do you really think that saying that homosexuality isn't real on radfem subs (that btw, also have lesbians in them, surprise surprise) wouldn't get you banned? If I saw that comment in the wild I'd think you were just a troll. I've seen multiple comments that criticised GC posters for using right wing platforms, and I not only joined in the discussion, agreeing with them, but also reported any right wing source I've found. I wasn't banned though - I obviously would not agree with that ban. As for radfems writing articles on right wing subs - it's either no platform or a bad platform. While I can't deny that there is a certain pragmatism in choosing a platform instead of having none, I still don't agree with that approach.

And define "LGB dogma"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The people being banned from GC are either trolls or there to start up debate

There's a lot here I could talk about, but I'd like to go back to this which was what I was really trying to say.

I don't think "claims of anti-semitism are used to silence legitimate criticism of some Jewish groups" in response to someone mentioning "anti-semitism" is the same sort of thing as trying to kill or deport a lot of Jewish people. (Just like it's not "transphobic" to say "I don't think male transgenderists are really female" and it's not "islamophobic" to say "Islamic sects usually treat women badly.") If talking about anti-semitism isn't off-topic to radical feminism, then how is the criticism of how "anti-semitism" is used off-topic? That's not right. That's using the platform to push an ideological position. The fact that this kind of one-sided censorship was occurring was not disclosed.

I did not say this to troll hoping to get a reaction. I did not say this because I wanted to debate the basic tenants of radical feminism or because I wanted to hurt Jewish readers or Jewish people in general. I simply wanted to participate in the conversation like anyone else. Believing that "anti-semitism" is never used inappropriately is not a tenant of radical feminism and was not stated on any sub rules as a requirement for participation.

I posted the about LGBT on /r/actualwomen, which claimed to be a place open to all women regardless of ideology. I did not say anything saying that anything bad should happen to anyone. I did make a post arguing that "homosexuality" is an ideology, not biology. Which again, is not anymore homophobic than "I don't think transgenderism is real biology" is transphobic. This was contrary to the rules stated on /r/actualwomen.

I would consider "LGB dogma" to be things like the existence of a biological trait called homo/bi/heterosexuality that is always the result of healthy, normal biology and never anything else. The idea that questioning that is something called "homophobia" and makes you a really bad person who, for the safety of others, must be marginalized away from polite society regardless of personal material consequences. Things like that. I think there was a time when all of this was all much less dogmatic and it was normal for people to speculate and explore these topics freely, as one might discuss any other non-politicized topic.

I mainly wanted to reply, though, to correct the idea that it was only "trolls" or "people looking to debate the fundamental tenants of radical feminism" who were banned or censored. I see this claim a lot, and I think it's not true. There are other examples in my comment -- a self-described third world woman whose argument against any collaboration with right-wing anything was censored without disclosure. A woman who was censored when trying to name the groups involved in the UK grooming gangs. These were not "trolls" and they were not looking to debate the fundamental tenants of radical feminism, yet they were censored too. I want people to be aware that this was happening. It wasn't just trolls or people looking to debate basic radical feminist principles.

[–]SavvyDiogenes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think "claims of anti-semitism are used to silence legitimate criticism of some Jewish groups" in response to someone mentioning "anti-semitism" is the same sort of thing as trying to kill or deport a lot of Jewish people. (Just like it's not "transphobic" to say "I don't think male transgenderists are really female" and it's not "islamophobic" to say "Islamic sects usually treat women badly.")

True, that was an instance of mods trying to avoid a "hate speech" takedown, I think.

There are other examples in my comment -- a self-described third world woman whose argument against any collaboration with right-wing anything was censored without disclosure.

I read that, I agree with her and I have also said numerous times that we shouldn't collaborate with the right wing.

A woman who was censored when trying to name the groups involved in the UK grooming gangs.

Saw that too, it's probably the same thing as what the gc mods did - trying to avoid giving the AHS types a reason to shut down the sub.

I would consider "LGB dogma" to be things like the existence of a biological trait called homo/bi/heterosexuality that is always the result of healthy, normal biology and never anything else.

  1. Why should whether homo/bisexuality is a result of "healthy normal biology" even matter? Women are critical of TRAs because they are a risk to women's rights. What rights do LGB people infringe upon?

  2. Saying that homosexuality is an ideology puts lesbian women at risk - this sort of argument is what causes both the cotton ceiling and corrective rape. So yes, I could see how arguing for a belief that has caused on multiple occasions literal rape would get you banned off of a sub full of women.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I am completely on board with you. I might have misunderstood some other comments, but if that is your position, I agree.

I believe that I made such a comment (see above) that was factual. It's also too easy to accuse someone of trolling, simply because you think what they are saying is silly or you disagree with it. I have also already been called "hateful", just as any SJW would have done to silence their opposition. One of their arguments started with "Who sent you?" as if I am some kind of mafia agent for expecting to be able to have open debate on a platform that fashions itself as a free speech platform. That loon must have mixed up their meds for the week.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can look at the modlog and the sidebar for /s/Gender_Critical. I've tried to be clear about the rules on the sub and to enforce them evenly and fairly (and so far nobody has enjoyed it when the rules have been enforced... makes me wonder if we can't improve the way the moderation system works)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Somebody with an account old enough should just create an uncensored version of Gender_Critical. My suspicion is that it will have more users than the original one in a short amount of time, and that would be a very satisfying thing to see.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I could think of a few ways to improve it. Most of them involve a trash can.

[–]teelo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Its like you didn't even click the linked comment.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I am more and more feeling as if I do not really care what these clowns are planning, as if we needed their permission to speak or have a GenderCritical sub, like it's some trademark they own. There will be a free speech alternative of that sub and none of the mods who supported any of those idiotic rules will be present, as mods. They can join the sub, but by then they might prefer to stay in their hug box. Their hug box will die, the free speech version will thrive. Their censored version will be devoid of intelligent input, the free speech version will have insightful debate.

You cannot have a community of women. Every attempt to try to divine who is female or not will need to be based on the positions they hold. So you are not enforcing rules on gender, you are inevitably enforcing rules based on opinion. Any of those opinions could also be held by a woman, or you think that women are incapable of holding certain opinions or thinking a certain way.

You are a bunch of hypocrites. Come out and say you are enforcing a party line. At least then you are honest. All these rationales you present -- absolute bullshit, euphemism, sleight of hand. What the fuck does it mean for an opinion to be "high on the pyramid of debate"? As if that is going to be an objective criterion. No, you will censor people who disagree with you, you will kick out people you do not like. It's bad enough that you want to do this on one of the few free speech platforms out there right now, but at least stop your fucking lies, you god damn hypocrites.

What is a "SavvyDiogenes", by the way? Is that some form of narcissism, the way you with the trans people you criticize? You do not sound savvy at all and your takes are absolutely moronic. You are everything wrong with the people you criticize. But you're so full of shit that you can't see yourself in the mirror. What a philosopher you are, truly.

Man, I have so much contempt for people like those, but at least here I can freely say that.

[–]SavvyDiogenes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Their hug box will die, the free speech version will thrive.

If you really think that the "free speech" version on an obscure reddit clone will survive, then you're delusional, end of. You're here to yell in the void, like the rest of us. That's why free speech is even possible here in the first place - because this site holds no potential of having an impact. Is that sad? Absolutely, but it's true - let's not delude ourselves here.

You cannot have a community of women. Every attempt to try to divine who is female or not will need to be based on the positions they hold.

It's fucking rich that you even think you can speak about Gender Critical when you seem to miss the literal main point of it all - there is no way to be a woman except being of the female sex, and an adult. There is no behaviour, no opinion, no nothing that makes you female except being born female. And that is why gender in itself is bullshit. There is no way to "divine the female" - it is a biological category.

What the fuck does it mean for an opinion to be "high on the pyramid of debate"?

It's the literal rules of saidit, idiot. You keep parroting about how great this site is for free speech when you seem to not have even read the rules. This pyramid of debate thing isn't our invention, you genius - take that to magnora if you don't like the rule.

What is a "SavvyDiogenes", by the way? Is that some form of narcissism, the way you with the trans people you criticize? You do not sound savvy at all and your takes are absolutely moronic. You are everything wrong with the people you criticize. But you're so full of shit that you can't see yourself in the mirror. What a philosopher you are, truly.

If you don't see the point in choosing the name of someone who is considered the father of cynicism for an alt, the same person who'd hold a lamp in broad daylight on the streets of Athens to look for an honest man, then you're hopeless. It's not some attempt at self-aggrandizing, it's a tongue-in-cheek name meant to be over the top and ridiculous, and hinting towards cynicism (oh as if i could have made that any more obvious). But it seems like you can only see things literally, with no regards to nuance - no wonder you literally named yourself Screwtape. Should I take that name literally, too?

You are a bunch of hypocrites. Come out and say you are enforcing a party line. At least then you are honest.

What party line? Elaborate - what, you think we are in bed with the ultra leftist marxists that would love to swing bats in our faces, or with the right wing nationalists that would enjoy locking the whole female sex in the kitchen and taking away any bodily autonomy we have left? Come on, I'm curious as to what ridiculous bullshit you'll pull out of your mouth this time.

[–]Jesus-Christ 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

Yea, they complain about being censored, just so that they can find a new platform to censor. "Safety spaces" do nothing for anyone, it's a shame society values safetyism over anything else.

[–]RecordStory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Censorship to conservatives is "i should be able to call my neighbor the N word, but you're censoring me if you say that's bad"

[–]Jesus-Christ 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Ok? ..and censorship to liberals is, "I should be able to remove comments that I disagree with because I'm right and that makes them literal Nazis, and if I can't then it's bad."

Class conversation.

[–]RecordStory 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Run from this cult.

[–]Jesus-Christ 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Shut the fuck up.

[–]RecordStory 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

run from this cult. You can't make me to shut up Reddit can sure tell make you shut up, send you off to shitholes like this. But I'm sure you're used to people not liking you.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's bullshit. A pretty broad brush and bullshit. What is happening with allegations of being "hateful" is that every disagreement becomes a form of hate. How can you be this disingenuous?

Once you have a way to shut somebody down because you can project into their minds, as if you are some kind of psychic, you can just stretch that term as far as you like. If you haven't comprehended that this is what is going on on social media right now you must have been living under a rock.

I probably hate your opinion and you hate mine. If being "hateful" was the standard for debate, probably neither of us could speak.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting. Thank you for pointing out that removal.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Those people are absolute hypocrites. I have just been banned from that sub. I made a post about it here:

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/5cb2/gendercritical_does_not_belong_on_saidit_the/kg8k

I think saidit needs to think hard about how it wants to deal with censorship, or it will just become another censored social media site. I need to think more about the consistent, logical thing to do, but maybe we must allow GenderCritical to ban and censor. The alternative is for people to be able to form mobs against subs and mods into whom to ban or not ban. If saidit allows people to ban, then it must also leave it to them how to make those decisions. So, as hypocritical as it is, the best thing might mean that GenderCritical can port over their censorship from Reddit, even if that sounds paradoxical.

The important piece is that mods of subs should never, ever have the power to impact user's experience across the site, which is an important pattern on Reddit. As long as that is the case, people who are banned in one place can always create their own sub on the same site. I have lost the ability to approve some of my own posts after mods had reported me for side-wide rule violations and alleged harassment. I think echo chambers are stupid, that GenderCritical cannot tell who is male or female, only their opinions on a subject, and if you enforce a set of opinions on a subject, then you might as well stop debating it. That sub becomes useless and their sub will die sooner or later.

What I will do, though, is to relentlessly point out the hypocrisy of those people and I should remain free to do so on saidit. Eventually, I think everybody knows what will happen here, which is the same thing that happens everywhere else. These people will get upset that they are being lambasted, buddy up with site admins, and have their critics silenced. That must not happen on saidit.

People on /s/GenderCritical are identitarian clowns and I have little more than contempt for them. They brought over the same kind of hug box they complained about on Reddit. I think they should remain on saidit and will inevitably become a case study and a reminder how censorious groups fall apart and descend into authoritarian bitch fests and power struggles. I am looking forward to it and this will be my post I will reference when I can say "Told you so."

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Please consider correcting your post, your ban was from /s/Gender_Critical (with an underscore), not /s/GenderCritical (no underscore, no affiliation).

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Oh, shit! I am so sorry. I did not see the difference. I will correct it. No wonder I got so confused by the inconsistency of the positions.

Edit: Wait, hold on ... so the one I have been banned from was already the alternative one? Was it supposed to have less censorship or more?

It says there, on /s/GenderCritical (no underscore):

Mods will remove opposing opinions that are high on the pyramid of debate in accordance of rule 4b. Such comments may result in a ban. Notes on conduct: no slurs, that includes the T-slur. Acceptable terms are: Trans-identified Male (TiM), transwomen/woman, Trans-identified Female (TiF), transmen/man. Misogynistic slurs like c*nt will be removed regardless of context.

So it's the same nonsense, isn't it? Okay, I don't care who moderates what specifically. It's about the censorship of it and coming to a free speech alternative to Reddit just to be as censorious, or more.

Someone set up a free speech alternative to GenderCritical and drain its users. It will also be a place where people can point and laugh at the hypocrisy of GenderCritical (underscore or not) as it relates to censorship. If noone else will, I will, once I have the account age to do so. I will call it s/GenderCriticalUncensored if it's still available by then.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I will correct it.

Thank you! I (and presumably other readers) appreciate it.

I would really love to have an open sub to discuss these issues! I'd like to explain a bit about the history, if you don't mind, maybe it will help inform what you want to do if you decide to create a sub.

So, some history, here goes:

Once upon a time there were some feminist thinkers. They were thinking about feminist things, and thought that most gendered expectations of women in society were harmful to them. Things like extra expectations about appearance, or expectations to be deferential, or how the fields considered "women's work" were not as high-paying. They conceptualized this as "gender". To them, "gender" was something that was imposed on women by men so that men could have more control over women's reproductive capacity. This group is, afaik, sometimes known as "radical feminists." They were critical of gender, in this sense of gender.

Moving forward in time, there were some places on the internet women discussed these ideas. There were other feminist ideas at this time too though. Some women thought that feminism should include problems that sex-based expectations caused male people. They did not see "gender" as a harmful thing, but just a different thing. Some women thought doing "sex work" was a good thing for some women. Some women thought makeup could be a good thing for women. Some women thought that sometimes, some men could become women, or already were women, as understood through transgender ideology. The radical feminist thinkers from the tradition described above though, disagreed with a lot of this. Eventually, due to the increasing influence of transgender ideology, women who did not consider any men to be women were kicked out of these spaces. And this is how /r/GenderCritical was born.

It's important to note here that the "gender" in "gender critical" doesn't refer to transgender ideology, "there are only two genders," etc. Rather it comes from the older strain of gender criticism that existed in feminist thinking. To be "gender critical" in this sense is to be a radical feminist in this line of thought. Perhaps similar to how a Christian is someone who follows a certain line of thought coming from a different origin.

To continue the history: /r/GenderCritical increasingly gained a following among women who felt betrayed by the other increasingly transgenderist-controlled feminism. The transgenderists of course did not like it, and finally, recently, after having gained much of a following, it was banned from reddit.

During this time at reddit, however, I had been banned from GenderCritical for things I believed were wrong (you may have read some of my other comments explaining why). I was angry about it, and I wanted other participants there to know that I (and others) had been silently censored there, in ways that were not transparent based on the sub's rules. And in ways that implied the things I would have wanted to say were hateful, when they weren't.

So I said something about it here, when they arrived after the ban. And someone (a guy) made and offered me the /s/Gender_Critical sub to do with whatever I liked. After thinking over what I wanted to do, I decided I wanted it to be a place like GenderCritical -- for women to focus on women's issues, and on gender. But I wanted it to be a place that offered any woman an opportunity to speak, whatever her background. The name "/s/Gender_Critical" really does not fit the ethos of the sub, since it's not a sub about gender criticism in the tradition of radical feminism. But it's the name of the sub that was given to me, so I did with it what I did. I felt wrong opening the sub to men, as if I was betraying the name of GenderCritical, as if I was tricking a man into letting me undermine what it was supposed to be, a man who, despite his kindness in offering me the sub, might not have understood what GC was about, and may not have cared that much about the movement.

Several of the posters on /s/Gender_Critical expressed disappointment that I didn't open the sub to men as well. So there may be interest in it.

I don't really feel hypocritical about my decision to keep it women-only. My complaints were primarily about feeling like GenderCritical was not being transparent about what content it censored, not that there existed a space that censored some opinions. (As reddit has not been transparent about what "hateful" stuff means, imo). My approach to /s/Gender_Critical rectifies this problem by trying to be transparent about the rules. And it rectifies another thing I didn't like, which was feeling like I had to believe a certain ideology to participate in discussion. It's fair to have that, just like it's fair to have a sub for Christians to discuss Christianity together, but to me it feels like it puts limits to thinking and exploration that I don't like. And it keeps something I really liked, which was that it's women-centered (this time by making it women-only, rather than expecting women participants to have any certain ideology that tried to be women-centered).

All of that is meant to explain what "Gender Critical" means, and to explain how /s/GenderCritical and /s/Gender_Critical came into existence, and why they are the way they are.

I would suggest if you do make an open sub, rather than naming it after a specific feminist ideology that you and most other participants probably don't follow (/s/GenderCriticalUncensored would be the equivalent of /s/ChristiansUncensored, which still sounds like it only includes people who are actually gender critical / christian), a good name might be "/s/GenderDiscussion". That would be on a similar topic and would not have any specific ideological bent, and it would be something that could be open to anyone. Anyone could participate and have their say, whether transgenderist, GC, alt-right, blanchardian, or some totally new unaffiliated innovative idea.

I also think that for now, /s/feminism would work well to discuss similar topics, since it's already open to everyone.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The only thing at this point I can be appreciative about is that you do seem to actually feel that you are doing the right thing, perhaps, and are taking the time to explain, but I disagree fundamentally. You are on saidit and with a two week old account you had the choice to create whatever sub of your choosing. You were not locked into any of this. You have a choice in which communities you spend your energy on, so I am not buying any of this.

But I wanted it to be a place that offered any woman an opportunity to speak, whatever her background.

That is the sleight of hand I despise so much, this contortion of words. What does it mean to offer a woman "opportunity to speak"? It's not as if her speech disappears by what others says. She is a name on a screen and anyone can still read what she wrote, just not reply. There is always this implication that women are oppressed or cannot say what they think if they see someone else having a different opinion. Ironically, by making the sub only for women, the presumption that whoever speaks on the sub is a woman is much stronger.

And why do so many feminists complain about supposed online harassment against women, just to then disclose their gender online for no reason other than to signal they are women? It's complete GOTIS. It's so hypocritical, in so many ways, no matter what direction you look at it from. There is so much fake victimhood in those places. There is so much misandry, while accusing others of sexism. Apparently, there is also all this usual bullshit about the supposed sexism in society, based on disparity of outcome, when you complain about the unfairness of TiMs in the same breath. Do you not see the absolutely contradiction? Either disparity of outcome is a proof for sexism and genders are equal, or TiMs competing in women's sports is unfair. Your movement is confronted with their own contradictions and your predictable response is to shut out the obvious criticism. Are you people actually mentally ill? This does really border on mental illness, something borderline or histrionic, or you people could not be this full of shit.

As for making a sub women only, are you checking anyone's passport or their genitals? Again, you have no idea who is in your sub. The only thing you can police is opinions, so you might as well come out and say that. How does that not occur to your types of people?

I do not like the women getting hurt by the transgender movement, which is why I wanted to participate in that sub. I do not want any women get hurt, even if they have the IQ of a redfem, and I can see how it is in fact hurting women. But that in the process of that realization all of your other assumptions do not crumble as a consequence, that you are so desperately clinging onto a framework that is so filled with contradictions, that baffles me, and I am not at all surprised that it produces these staggering contradictions in that community's conduct, here as elsewhere.

I do not know who you are as a person. I do not claim to know jack shit about you, so I want to attack bad ideas, more than people, but this shit makes me angry. I hope that you can come around to getting more clarity on gender relationships. I could be wrong about all of this, too, I don't think I have all the answers, but this is where I am at. The ultimate arbiter of truth is always reality. I do not know how many doses of reality some people need until they can get themselves to take an honest look in the mirror.

I have many people in my life that are important to me, some men and some women. I do not want the women in my life to get hurt and I do not want the men in my life to face any of the abominations that some of the feminists have unleashed on society in the form of MeToo, family court, Title IX or similar. I despise what the transgender movement is doing and I despise what I understand radfems to believe. But the hipocrisy and lies of the transgender movement ironically really helped to shine a light on the bullshit that radfems appear to believe. For that I thank the transgender movement.

Maybe we can start to admit that men and women are not equal, on average, and that not every disparity in outcome is due to oppression and patriarchy. Maybe we can start to see that we can treat each other fairly despite our differences and that meritocracy, even if it does not work out to a perfect gender split, is the fairest way to treat people. Then you can get transgender people out of women's sports again. Then we can stop blaming men, many of whom have given their lives to protect women, for every problem women have.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There's a lot here. I appreciate your explaining your perspective.

Firstly, I'm not exactly a feminist (radical or otherwise) and I'm not exactly not. I've found a lot of things about radical feminism immensely valuable, and I also disagree a lot with some things.

A lot of the feminist ideas you're talking about here seem to come from a lot of different places. I think there's truth to some of them, but I don't agree with some of them.

As for making a sub women only, are you checking anyone's passport or their genitals? Again, you have no idea who is in your sub. The only thing you can police is opinions, so you might as well come out and say that. How does that not occur to your types of people?

I'm aware of this, that's why the rules were written the way they were, "known to be male". I had actually assumed you were female (because I had assumed goodwill, and I saw that you posted in /s/Gender_Critical, and I assumed that you had at least skimmed the rules which indicate that it's meant for women), until I saw you state that you were male. It was disappointing to find out you had just chosen not to listen to the rules, especially after choosing a screen name referencing a work on morality I personally have a fondness for.

I could be wrong about all of this, too, I don't think I have all the answers, but this is where I am at.

I agree that an open discussion sub about these issues might be really nice, for this reason! We're all just figuring it out. I don't like that a lot of the time we have to talk in these ideologically enforcing spaces. I made the decision I did regarding s/ G_C for the reasons I tried to describe, but that doesn't mean I don't also think an open discussion space is valuable. I really do think /s/feminism could work for right now on a lot of these topics, I was sincere in suggesting it. There's already been a lot of interesting interchange here on feminist topics. I learned stuff I didn't expect to.

Maybe we can start to admit that men and women are not equal, on average, and that not every disparity in outcome is due to oppression and patriarchy. Maybe we can start to see that we can treat each other fairly despite our differences and that meritocracy, even if it does not work out to a perfect gender split, is the fairest way to treat people. Then you can get transgender people out of women's sports again. Then we can stop blaming men, many of whom have given their lives to protect women, for every problem women have.

Yeah I think it's fine to discuss these ideas, and probably important as these are pretty powerful political movements right now.

I don't know why you're so interested in feminist stuff. But if it needs to be said: you're not a bad person for being male. If you think someone isn't treating you right, you don't have to listen. If you've treated someone wrong, you should clean up whatever problem you caused. If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't need to apologize or act like you've done something wrong when you haven't. Like anyone else, it's your personal actions that count, good or bad.

I have many people in my life that are important to me, some men and some women. I do not want the women in my life to get hurt and I do not want the men in my life to face any of the abominations that some of the feminists have unleashed on society in the form of MeToo, family court, Title IX or similar. I despise what the transgender movement is doing and I despise what I understand radfems to believe. But the hipocrisy and lies of the transgender movement ironically really helped to shine a light on the bullshit that radfems appear to believe. For that I thank the transgender movement.

It sounds like maybe you're looking for a place to discuss and maybe work towards fixing issues in transgender ideology and activism? A place that anyone could participate? And maybe a place to discuss fair policies for women and men (you mentioned metoo, family court, title ix).

Frankly I would love to see a positive space for all this that worked towards good solutions for everyone. We'd all have to actually listen to each other, which a lot of us aren't used to. But it could probably happen on SaidIt. These are the conversations it was designed to facilitate.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm aware of this, that's why the rules were written the way they were, "known to be male". I had actually assumed you were female (because I had assumed goodwill, and I saw that you posted in /s/Gender_Critical, and I assumed that you had at least skimmed the rules which indicate that it's meant for women), until I saw you state that you were male. It was disappointing to find out you had just chosen not to listen to the rules, especially after choosing a screen name referencing a work on morality I personally have a fondness for.

Maybe that was immoral. I do not know. I assumed that saidit was a free speech platform and I had already been familiar with the GenderCritical group on Reddit, so I had assumed that it would be about the same topic, just minus the censorship or identitarianism, surely. That, I had thought would have been left on Reddit. I had also actually invested quite a bit of thought into the post, so I thought it would be a welcome contribution. That is a big part of why I am so mad about this. I did not think that I would have said anything in the post that would not be on topic, and therefor valid, or I would have read the rules more clearly, at the point when I was conducting myself in a manner that I would be unsure about, such as certain rules about how to post certain content or in which style to reference sources -- things that regulate formality. In a place of free speech, I always assume aspects of what is true to be beyond regulation. If I run afoul of any rules in that manner, by expressing what I think is true, I usually do not care enough about the rules of a space. My rationale is that this is automatically hypocritical and that such a space did not respect me, as a user, enough to be morally consistent. At that point, all bets are off for me about many aspects of moral conduct.

Truth, for me, except in limited circumstances such as privacy, is an absolute defense in speech. That I would not have input on a topic because of my assumed gender (I am still not sure if I disclosed it) is inherently repugnant to me, so I did not inform myself about such rules, as I would have had no respect for them. I would have probably intentionally violated them, in that case, and I am not at all certain that would have been immoral. If you wish to talk about morality, I think we have an obligation to resist both immoral laws and immoral rules. And identitarianism of this sort is immoral to me. I am glad I violated that rule and if moderators had continued to assume that I am female I might have never noticed.

But that is the thing about truth: eventually you run into all those inconsistencies, you are bound to, sooner or later. We two seem to have very different ideas about morals.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I assumed that saidit was a free speech platform and I had already been familiar with the GenderCritical group on Reddit, so I had assumed that it was about the same topic, just minus the censorship or identitarianism.

Ok, I guess that's understandable. That wasn't what was going on, and it was clearly stated on the sidebar, but I can see how someone might have that expectation. I've done things based on false expectations before. For example SaidIt was presented to me as a free speech platform, and I was unhappy about it when I found out it wasn't.

I had also actually invested quite a bit of thought into the post, so I thought it would be a welcome contribution. That is a big part of why I am so mad about this.

I really meant what I said about just crossposting it in /s/feminism... you could still do that you know. It might have generated the discussion you wanted. I said it because I thought it was the right solution. It think it really will pop up in an "other discussions" tab for anyone who wants to participate, so they can find it easily.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I will do that. It's not really my position. I do not even want to admins to step in on any of this, because that would make me a hypocrite. I do not want this to be resolved through the use of power and force. I want the better ideas to prevail. What I would like to happen is for Gender*Critical to remain as it is and for the quality of people's ideas to win out. As soon as I have the account age I will set up a free speech version, unless there already is one.

But that is not a contradiction with me attacking radfem ideas. Bring them here. I want to see them dismantled, just as any bad idea of the likes of flat Earthers or social constructionists.

Now I know what to expect. I won't invest effort in posting in those subs anymore. If you want to do something moral, state clearly what you are doing and let the world see it. Say which opinions are off limit, because you cannot police people's gender in the end. You can only police opinions. Even if I had outright said to be male, do you know if that's true? Maybe, if women are such victims online, I would have reason to pretend to be male. No? Seems like something that wouldn't be out of line with radfem beliefs: women pretending to be male online. But, instead, I see women disclosing their gender online more frequently. Seems like GOTIS. Seems like hypocrisy and it smells of bullshit.

Maybe what you have actually just done is excluded a woman who was seeking community online and pretended to be male for the safety against the dangers of said being woman in such misogynistic society. You keep running into contradictions with that belief system, it seems. If women really were the subjects of constant attack, why create a community online that explicitly exposes the gender of their members? If you say that you would not know, then you are proving the nonsense in your own rules. If you are saying that you could tell, then you are contradicting your ideology.