all 46 comments

[–]platonic1 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

That’s because God is the Trinity, and angels do what God says so when an angel does something it’s technically God allowing it.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

No, demons and spirits and even human rulers are also called אלהים. And the trinity as you know it is a Catholic invention, as are the Bible, hell, physical heaven, the virgin birth, the pastoral epistles, church, the orthodoxy, and all the Roman cultural "morals" they imported.

[–]platonic1 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

What justification do you have for claiming this is true but Catholicism in false? Even these books would have no meaning if the Catholic Church did not canonize the Bible. What makes the Book of Enoch important in your opinion, other than it is related to the Old Testament, which is related to the New Testament, which the Catholic Church canonized?

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I don't think Enoch actually wrote the Book of Enoch, but it does reveal beliefs Jews potentially had at the time. But why do you say a book has no meaning unless the Catholic Church canonizes it? That didn't happen until 2.5 centuries after the last ones were finished, were they all worthless until then? Actually the whole canon idea was a ripoff of Marcion, the ultimate enemy of Catholicism because he caught them red-handed altering the books. But even he wasn't around until well into the second century. The original authors had no idea about a canon, and if that made their work worthless then why bother doing it at all? But no, a canon doesn't change anything. They wrote those things down so we wouldn't forget them over the centuries.

[–]platonic1 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The book of Enoch might as well be war and peace. The only reason it means anything is because Christianity exists. The only reason it’s not taken as the ramblings of some random guy is because the Catholic Church wrote the table of contents of the Bible, and Enoch is mentioned in the OT.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What about before the canonization? What about all the books that didn't make it in?

[–]platonic1 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Those books are not part of God’s Public Revelation. We only know what writings are part of God’s Public Revelation if it’s in the canon. There are tons of spurious writings like the Gospel of Thomas. By what criteria do we decide that something in inspired by God and something is just fanfiction?

My point is you say things like the Trinity is a false teaching, but at the same time care about writings like the Book of Enoch because some of the Bible references it. How do you know Catholic Teaching is false but still believe the Bible it canonized? If the people who wrote the table of contents of the Bible cannot be true, how can the very Bible they say is inspired be true? The Bible did not fall from the sky but someone had to sift through many writing and declare which are inspired, which is not possible unless the person who does it is inspired.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Or they just picked the ones they liked the most. I in fact listed the Bible as one of the Catholic inventions, because I don't believe it. But just because something ends up in it doesn't mean it's invalidated either, because it was originally separate. And all the writings are spurious, there are undeniably a metric fuck ton of edits and interpolations everywhere, especially in Paul's letters (which is why he talks in word salads and contradicts himself at every turn), and we don't know who the authors of any of the gospels are. John is no more likely to be written by John than Thomas is to have been written by Thomas. Actually Thomas is probably more likely, or at least part of it, because it's in such a primitive form (simply a list of quotes). I don't care about Enoch except what it can reveal about Jewish beliefs at the time, and in my example it shows that they thought גדר האל was a name for Satan.

[–]platonic1 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If Christianity is false, I don't care what Jews believed. Why should I?

Everything we have in Christianity came from the Catholic Church. Even Protestants have to confess this.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, there were Christians before the Catholic Church. But they were all heretics according to the Catholic Church.

[–]chottohen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Nobody says God like a Southern Baptist preacher: Gawd.

[–]Vulptex[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

And the SBC does basically nothing but complicate things and confuse their followers, while harassing everyone else which makes Jesus look bad.

[–]chottohen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I was thirteen, I told my mother that I'd had enough of the church and never went back. I did keep a personal kind of spirituality though.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

any god that requires anything of you to 'be happy' is a false god

God is all powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent .. God is all things

God literally is, the only is, we are whatever is dreamed up

anything that spawns from the dream can't encompass the dreamer, the real I

the 'god' of the old testament is obvious fraud, obvious not all powerful, obvious needy bitch

what God wants for you is what you want for you

in our ignorance we often choose poorly... and God gives you what you think you want, in the twisted way we ask (unless you've achieve clarity)

only two types that are live .. and evil .. the rest reside in ignorance, pinballs to their emotions, slave to their desires, ignorant of how to change a thing.

be still and know i am God

i've heard you can allegorically understand the old testament as a mental map to navigate human emotions and understand human nature.

i've seen a number of works that make a good case for this being the case.

i believe/have seen that layers of truth always exist because we DO LIVE in a DIVINE WORLD of constant PERFECTION

[–]platonic1 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Evil is, unfortunately, not an illusion. Monism implies that good and evil are aspects of the same being.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're not. I suspect that the archons are merely people who run a simulation which is our world, and their world is also still a simulation. I say this because there are so many אלהים who act exactly like people running a simulation would. The only exceptions are יהוה aka יהושע\ישוע aka Jesus, who only does 110% good all the time and goes to the most extreme lengths to have mercy and save a bunch of people who don't deserve it; "The Father" who is so supreme that we've never seen or heard from him directly, but is apparently otherwise identical to יהוה; and Satan the sadist whose sole passion seems to be ruling everyone like a tyrant, and tormenting them and watching them go insane while laughing at them.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the world is an illusion. it appears true until you see thru it

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

i believe/have seen that layers of truth always exist because we DO LIVE in a DIVINE WORLD of constant PERFECTION

You call this awful prison perfection? I think you're in denial and fooled by the new-age toxic positivity movement that pretends everything is fine and shuts down anyone who points out a truth they don't like. But the truth is we're currently rotting in hell, with the archons using all the mistakes we made that they purposely influenced us to commit as an excuse to keep sending us back here all the time. And all they seem to care about is power, and at least one is such a sadist that it looks like even most of the other archons can't stand him. But they want you to love their slave simulation so you'll willingly go right back to it. That's why the whole world since the beginning of time has been propaganda touting this world and nature and society and idols and governments as good and divine and a gift and even perfect, ignoring all the atrocities they're really responsible for. And if you dare notice anything, you're instantly shut down for being a "pessimist" or called "ungrateful" for all the constant troubles life gives, even to some of the luckiest of us all. And you're supposed to believe that you're nothing but a piece of the supposedly magical collective, that society owns you, and in some cases even that everything is "collective consciousness", and you're supposed to like it. But I've had absolutely enough. I am not doing this EVER again knowing what I know now. It's all a lie, it's all a scam, but you're conditioned to not even question whether it's real or not, even when it's completely obvious that it's not and behaves exactly like a matrix or even a dream. Fuck this shit I'm out.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

what a steaming pile of mental garbage.

that you can mental misinterpret, and then from there spew retardation

perfection means the current state aligns with folks beliefs

we live in a dream, to each dreamer they are it and the world appears as their beliefs hold

perfection doesn't mean you are not an idiot .. it means life is working perfectly whether u get it or not

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm certainly not creating this experience for myself, and neither are you. But the archons want you to think that so you become attached to this awful place and will be subject to their vile torments for a very long time.

Avoid the light tunnel and anything or anyone greeting you after death, or anything you didn't place yourself. Avoid returning here at all costs.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

fear is for fools.

if you suffer it is your choice

and I get the impression ... Your idea you live in hell... Is why u suffer

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I didn't choose any of this. You're falling for archon deceptions.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

doesn't make sense. there is no deception, there is nothing else to be

you are wrapped up in your ego, and until you go beyond..

you will be worldly and think there is other that threatens you

seeing that it is all you, is the ultimate end.

see you when you get here.

there is no where else to go.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Only if you fall for the light tunnel trap or whatever others they set up. They are very convincing so don't trust anything!

But it is crazy to think that I am behind this. Because I can clearly see and know that I'm not causing any of it. It's being done to me, by something else.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's being done to me, by something else.

that someone else is your past self. it follows you.

life is recreated in every moment, your present self creates for your future self

it is perfectly fair, and perfectly fullfilling, as each is always getting exactly what they expect, no more, no less

divine perfection

when we realize we are doing this, we could choose differently.

you are correct in that your are 'prey' to the collective mentality, but if you separate from it the suffering there ceases as well

suffering can only be if you think we can lose, be lost, die, or otherwise powerless

all that would suck, and i was ready to end it

but i found God was with me, always, and it was I who had to open my eyes.

God is/was/will be always

and that is the best thing to align with, that which is

and the love, the comfort possible, not possible with darkness, but only those two sides 'live' .. and 'evil' ..

.. Jesus was NOT surprised that he was crucified.. was he? a point was to be made, and it was thru his life

one of the few that truly lived

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

אלהים, Elohim, does not mean the same thing through time.

It starts as you have explained, referring to "godS", however this is like something saying "only the HEAVENS know what is going on". In early old testament is it the go to for all heavenly beings. God is mentioned personally and directly along side this.

Further on it is dragged through the canaanite language as a cognate and becomes a direct meaning for a single ruling deity. The way christians use the word god today, to refer to God.

This is basic etymology for this word. How did you miss this?

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

That doesn't work either. Human rulers are also called אלהים. The authentic writings are far more "gnostic" than you've been told.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Yes, that is because they were considered agents of god. Ruler ship of a nation was ordain by their god. This method of thinking is not just here, but across all of the various civilisations across the world, bar modern ones.

https://ehrmanblog.org/rulers-as-gods-the-context-of-ancient-religion/

David gets the drop of Saul, who has been trying to kill him for ages, but he doesn't kill him because he was chosen by God to be king: 1 Samuel 24 4 Then the men of David said to him, “This is the day of which the Lord said to you, ‘Behold, I will deliver your enemy into your hand, that you may do to him as it seems good to you.’ ” And David arose and secretly cut off a corner of Saul’s robe. 5 Now it happened afterward that David’s heart troubled him because he had cut Saul’s robe. 6 And he said to his men, “The Lord forbid that I should do this thing to my master, the Lord’s anointed, to stretch out my hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord.” 7 So David restrained his servants with these words, and did not allow them to rise against Saul. And Saul got up from the cave and went on his way.

However, I am interested to know where in the bible the un modified word of elohim refers to a non heavenly being. Show me. Because I think you fail to understand the basic premise of language.

If I say the word "park" outside of a sentence, what do you think I am referring to? You can not say. I could be referring to a kids park, an open green space, or the status of a car on the road. This also applies here:

bê·lō·hîm

hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

kê·lō·hîm

lā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

lê·lō·hîm

mê·hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

ū·mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm

ū·ḇê·lō·hê·hem

wə·hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm

ḇê·lō·hîm

Here is what I think is going on here. You have a vendetta against God and read in an article somewhere about this and did no further research.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

On a closer look the "human rulers" are actually still archons, but the translations obscured this fact as they do far too often. But that is beside the point, because it still shows that it does not refer to one god.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Show me where.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Let's break Psalm 82 down.

אֱלֹהִים - elohim

נִצָּב - stands

בַּעֲדַת־אֵל - in the congregation of el (the pantheon!)

בְּקֶרֶב - in the midst

אֱלֹהִים - of elohim

יִשְׁפֹּט - he will judge (or rule!)

Is he judging himself here?

עַד־מָתַי - until when (how long)

תִּשְׁפְּטוּ־עָוֶל - you will judge (or rule!) unjustly

וּפְנֵי - and faces of

רְשָׁעִים - wicked people

תִּשְׂאוּ - you will lift up (exalt, favor)

About life and earth he says:

לֹא - not

יָדְעוּ - they will know

וְלֹא - and not

יָבִינוּ - they will understand

בַּחֲשֵׁכָה - in darkness

יִתְהַלָּכוּ - they will walk

יִמּוֹטוּ - will shake

כָּל־מוֹסְדֵי - all foundations of

אָרֶץ - Earth

אֲנִי־אָמַרְתִּי - I said

אֱלֹהִים - elohim

אַתֶּם you (p) [are]

וּבְנֵי - and sons

עֶלְיוֹן - of the Most High

כֻּלְּכֶם - all of you [are]

אָכֵן - Surely

כְּאָדָם - like man

תְּמוּתוּן - you will die

וּכְאַחַד - and like one

הַשָּׂרִים - of the rulers

תִּפֹּלוּ - you will fall

קוּמָה - stand up

אֱלֹהִים - elohim

שָׁפְטָה - judge

הָאָרֶץ - the earth

כִּי־אַתָּה - because you

תִנְחַל - will inherit

בְּכָל־הַגּוֹיִם - in all the nations

This does not make any sense whatsoever if אלהים refers to a specific entity. Here we have elohim fighting with other elohim. Or is he fighting with himself?

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

You ask if he is judging himself, but you have completely missed what is going on in this psalm. It is even literally listed for you. "elohim stands in the congregation of el (the pantheon!)"

Yes, this fits perfectly in line with the reference to rulers being the ones with heavenly authority, as mentioned. The interesting thing about this is that this comes up a lot in the anti bible circles. Claiming things like "god said there was more than one god", but again, it refers to those in authority that are supposed to be acting on gods will. Either heavenly beings, or worldly leaders. In this case it is in reference to worldly leaders as heavenly hosts do not die. If you still have issue with this, it comes down then to your in ability to accept that words have multiple uses and are contextual. Also, nit picking.

nit picking: As a non native hebrew speaker, I would accept this summary:

Elohim is found 2,606 times in the King James Version. It is almost always translated as God or god(s) or some other divine being(s). There are 5 times the word is rendered as judge(s); 2 times as great; 2 times as mighty and once as exceedingly.

However to address your hebrew concern, I went further and broke up the direct ancient hebrew.

Base reference:

http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/psalms/82.html

For the first verse the god judging god is the same word and context. God judging god. Either this is the golden sample you can use to destroy the entire bible, or its just the actual etymology in play. As a I mentioned originally, the meaning is historically recorded as changing over time as a cognate. The same way gay used to mean happy, but now it means happy or youre a fag. So I can say, it's gay to be gay.

For 6 and 8 however. There are two different way the elohim has been used. There are distinct references to elohim as a plural and as a singular. God talking about other beings, using a similar word in a different context. For all intents and purposes, the direct letter for letter, yes, it's the same.

Interestingly though, this specific verse in the very way you are looking at it, is used against the jews by Jesus in the new testament.

He uses it as an example that the written law, when taken literally as it is written and out of context, is full of shit.

John 10, Jesus tells some jews that he is gods son and they take offence at that. Understanding that these jews are supposed to be teachers of the law.

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—

36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Essentially, in pslam 82, it is written as you are trying to explain it and Jesus says they're fools for trying to claim he can't be the son of God, because letter by letter, anyone teacher of the law could be God's out of context.

So. Which all of that, you being half right and half wrong, where to now?

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I never denied that etymology changes over time. The Hebrew Gospel of Matthew makes it clear that elohim meant God by the first century AD. However it was not so prior to that, when the Old Testmant was written. Therefore many instances of elohim are probably referring to archons rather than God.

[–]Anman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Many? As part of this little exercise I went through about a hundred or so of the 2000+ times the direct hebrew word elohim was used. once, it was used as for something other than God and the context was very clear on this. This sort of sits in line with the king james note:

Elohim is found 2,606 times in the King James Version. It is almost always translated as God or god(s) or some other divine being(s). There are 5 times the word is rendered as judge(s); 2 times as great; 2 times as mighty and once as exceedingly.

I would say your "many" is actually "effectively none". 0.38%. More people die from covid injections than this and every one still doesn't care.

I didn't mention it before because it was personal preference, but I'll just use this as a sort of cherry on my own cake. I never actually use the psalms or proverbs books for my studies. They are merely poems and songs by a man who was put into power by God. While they are God inspired, they have almost no value in history, prophecy or expectancy of God's followers. I only see them as encouragement.

[–]Vulptex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I don't see any book as inerrant, inspired means inspired, and never were any promises to preserve a written word made, much less a canon of holy books. People act like God just dropped the Bible out of the sky.

But because elohim's usage changed, so did its interpretation. The KJV was made in the 1600s, long after elohim meant "God". That does not mean it meant that when it was written. Another thing you have to remember is dishonest scribes removing what contradicted mainstream theology. We know of at least one such case, where a scribe changed elohim to Israel, making the passage nonsensical.