Interesting piece: Will Turkey be America's new point man in the middle east?

submitted by casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter from self.debatealtright

https://www.unz.com/article/america-chooses-a-new-mideast-policeman/

The idea is that the US can no longer afford to waste time in the middle east and needs to pivot to East Asia to face China. There is some evidence to this end, the US avoiding direct conflicts in the middle east and Obama's Iran deal to secure peace in the middle east.

Turkey on the other hand is playing a very clever game of pivoting from US to Russia to US again. The Turkish military is the second strongest in NATO, since Western Europeans refuse to maintain a serious force anymore.

I could see a huge friction in the future. The US could lure Turkey into a war with Iran which descends into a continental conflict. The Turks could easily crush Syria if they wanted, but the question is whether Russia would allow it and whether Turkey could maintain internal stability long enough.

Turks are becoming a minority in Turkey due to high Kurdish birth rates and the state could dissolve in the near future. Turkey is the single biggest threat to Europe now as shown by the refugee crisis. The US could also pressure EU to accept Turkey into the union.

This could be the catalyst that splits the EU and US for good. Already the EU is slightly pivoting towards the Russia-China axis. This could be the final straw.

Something big is coming goys

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

I live in the region. I mean this respectfully but almost everything you posted here is wrong other than this:

the state could dissolve in the near future.

Russia doesn't GAF about Turkey, only the Bosporus. And frankly, the Bosporus is a very different place than the rest of the country. When another coup happens, they will likely want independence as will the Kurds, Armenians, and possibly Cappadocia (Anatolian 'Greeks' are a mixed bag here, they are fairly Turkified).

But back to Russia, they are actually very angry at Ankara and want to flatten Erdogan's fucking palace and have been sowing dissent among Turkish politics in retaliation because they can't lay a finger on a NATO member. Turkey's incursion into Syria has cost many Russian mercenaries their lives not to mention Turkish forces firing on Russian bombers/fighters.

The Turkish military has actually suffered very embarrassing losses against the rag-tag SAA and have destroyed their reputations among Kurds and Syrians with brutal campaigns and borderline ethnic cleansing in the case of the Kurds. Their incursions into Libya is really not noteworthy as Libya isn't a stable state that can fend anyone off. Their support of the Azeris is angering Armenia, Iran, and other states in CSTO.

Also worth noting is Erdogan's purges of the Turkish military in the wake of the coup attempt. The Air Force in particular got gutted.

The basic problem I have with posts like this is that it assigns a lot of undeserved credit to Turkey who are political amateurs. This is the same country that took in millions of refugees voluntarily in hopes that the EU would cough up a lot of money and bow to the will of Erdogan. That never happened and the Greeks/Balkans beefed up their borders instead leaving Turkey deep in the red trying to pay for 4 million displaced civilians. Couple this with a failing economy, political unrest, picking fights with all of their neighbors, and antagonizing Russia and you have a recipe for disaster.

Frankly, the Kurds deserve a nation and the Armenians deserve Lake Van, Ararat, and Western Armenia back. And Istanbul should be it's own secular city state. Anatolia does not deserve to be under the rule of the Seljuks anymore; they usurped an ancient region full of culture and civilization and attempted to commandeer it poorly. I think that experiment needs to end.

[–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Well i'm not very well versed on Turkey, so I'll take your word for it. Can you link me info that Russia is destabilizing Turkish politics? Russia generally sucks at soft power and subversion, that's the domain for the UK-US-Israeli axis who have been perfecting the art for centuries.

As for the Turkish military, they have the second largest military in NATO. The Turkish army has 2000+ tanks and many more APCs and IFVs. I think they can field 15-20 combat brigades in the field. The air force is impressive as well, with 4th and 4++ generation fighters like the F-16 and F-15. All their equipment is Western made.

The Turks wasted the Syrian army recently, killing as many as 2000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks, trucks and artillery. So I don't know where you get the info about them being humiliated by Syria. This analysis shows that if all powers remained neutral, Iran could not stop Turkey from conquering Syria.

That said, Turkey is in dire demographics straits. Turks despite the name are not really Turkic. They're mostly Greeks and Armenians mixed in with a lot of Slavic blood due to slavery. The Turkish upper castes were practically white due to breeding with slavic slave girls. Sultan Suleman had red hair and blue eyes.

The Western Turks in my estimation are relatively high IQ(perhaps 92-94ish) but are dragged down by inbred and semitic Kurds. Kurds are 20-25% of the population and have a TFR of 3-4 while Turks have 1.5. The country might not last long.

However I wouldn't underestimate them. Their whiteness means that they're more effective Islamic supremacists. But except the Kurds, are there any real secessionist movement in Turkey? The country's economic straits are dire with the Lira collapsing but the country is still holding together

[–]TheJamesRocket 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Turks despite the name are not really Turkic. They're mostly Greeks and Armenians mixed in with a lot of Slavic blood due to slavery. The Turkish upper castes were practically white due to breeding with slavic slave girls. Sultan Suleman had red hair and blue eyes.

Thats true of some Turks, but certainly not all. Their ethnicity has changed somewhat over the course of the centurys, due to their disgusting habit of acquiring sex slaves from the Balkans and Crimea. Miscegenation doesn't make them white, though, despite what you claim. Beneath all the miscegenation, Turks are still the same as their filthy ancestors.

[–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

This disgusting habit is nothing unique to them. The mongols did it, as did the Aryans. The Aryans upon conquering a land would essentially takeover the women there. This happened in Brazil, India, Iran and many other places.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Through sex slavery?

[–]TheJamesRocket 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Recently, I've been doing alot of reading about the history of the Balkans during the Middle Ages. I am aghast at the things that happened there, and how little they are talked about. The Ottoman occupation was one of the greatest crimes in the history of mankind. It was even worse than what Genghis Kahn or Tamerlane did.

I feel very sorry for what the Greeks, Romanians, and Slavs had to endure.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I can imagine. Do you have any specifics in mind?

Anatolia used to be Greek.

[–]TheJamesRocket 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I just find it astounding that the Eastern Europeans were doing all the fighting against the Ottomans, while the Western Europeans sat on the sidelines and did jack shit (except for the battle of Vienna). And that very little attention is paid to this whole episode. This was an islamic caliphate that menaced Europe for centurys, and most Westerners have no idea.

I do have a question for you, though. Do you know about the battle of Ankara, when Tamerlane captured Bayezid and defeated the Ottomans? And how he proceeded to slaughter the Turks en masse, causing them to evacuate Anatolia? This was the lowest point ever for the Ottomans; a revolt in occupied Bulgaria and Serbia could have destroyed them for good. Why did the Slavs not seize the opportunity to rise up and overthrow the Ottomans?

[–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The Austrians did a lot of fighting. From 13-16th century, Hungary was the bulwark against Turkey. From 16th to 18th century, Austria held the main line of defense. From the 18th century afterwards, Russia led the charge and practically destroyed the Ottoman Empire single handedly.

Ottoman decline was so rapid that Britain actually intervened to keep it alive and even fought Russia in the Crimean war to save the Turks. The British PM at the time was Disraeli, a '''catholic'''.

Not only did the West not help Austria in its dark times, France actually invaded Germany during the Great Turkish war, at the time the Germans and Poles were beating back the Turks. The Austrians had inflicted several crushing defeats and liberated all of Hungary. Had France not stabbed them in the back, its possible that Serbia and Romania would've been liberated a century ahead of time.

Its always Germans and Slavs saving Europe.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I never heard of that and I'm very happy to learn about it. I know about the siege of baghdad.

[–]TheJamesRocket 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Tamerlane was one of the great conquerors of history, ranking right up there with Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great. He was a nomadic Asian warlord who carved out a vast empire over the course of his military career. Tamerlane got into a dispute with Bayezid, the Ottoman sultan. This eventually lead to them going to war. The Timurids annihilated the Ottomans at the battle of Ankara, and they spread across Anatolia killing Turks for fun. Tamerlane built a pyramid out of their skulls, and put Bayezid in a cage until he died.

I have always wondered what might have happened, if the Bulgarians and Serbs had revolted against the Ottomans at this time. They would have been very hard pressed to keep in control of the situation. It was a missed opportunity, in my opinion.

[–]TheJamesRocket 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Its not really the same thing. The Ottoman slave trade was unrivaled in its magnitude, longevitiy, and brutality. All non-muslims living inside the empire could be taken at will as slaves. The Ottomans occupied the Balkans and the Crimea for centurys, and sold slavic women abroad as sex slaves. This was the very definition of a rape culture.

What the Spanish did in South America isn't even in the same level. They practised polygamy with the native women, and took many wives. They never sold them abroad as sex slaves. (The Spanish did use the natives for forced labour, though, and they also enslaved blacks)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The SAA gets flattened without support from Russia but early after the Turkish push, the SAA was scoring bizarre victories on merit of Russia's assistance. This changed drastically with the introduction of Israeli Harpy drones, which suicide into radar and these drones were crippling Russian made AA systems giving the Turkish Army an advantage again. Russia is actually waaay more involved with Syria than most media lets on from my understanding. However, my source for this is twitter war correspondents- they all surmise that the Syrian Army is simply Russian cannon fodder.

Turkish military quality is a function of it's leadership which is fluid and has been mixed in effectiveness. It is true that they have the numbers and tech however. All merits of being in NATO.

Most of your facts are actually correct, I just don't agree with your optimism. One thing worth adding is that the Kurds really aren't native to Eastern Anatolia in the numbers that are present. They were purposely seeded to prevent Armenian reparation in the wake of the forced relocation/genocide. Armenia itself used to be almost all of Western Turkey and the landscape is still dotted with red castles/fortresses and ruined cities. A sad sight tbh. Same applies to Cappodocia and the Aegean Coastlines once having beautiful Greek cities now in ruins. I can't really speak for the Greeks, but the desire among Armenians to have their ancestral lands back is very real, especially their sacred mountain, Mount Ararat which is the symbol of Armenia. There will be a turf war with the Kurds for that land if Turkey as a country falls apart.

So that leads me to the X-factor here which is Turkification. Since Anatolia is comprised of so many fractured cultures and remnants of empires, it is dependent on its overarching nationalism to avoid disintegration. Social media and globalism have destroyed nationalism and religion in the Middle East and many countries are rapidly becoming irreligious and secular losing their cohesion. This is why the Turks push back hard against Armenian genocide narratives. Couple a dying culture with politcal instability and I just don't see them staying together long term. I had actually commented in the Hagia Sophia thread that this is the reason for Erdogan's re-christening of the Church to a Mosque, it was a desperate attempt to stir nationalism and Muslim identity.

I never new Turkey's TFR was 1.5 outside of the Eastern regions but that is another big issue so good catch.

[–]asterias 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Americans think that Turkey is their ally, while Turkey will side with anyone without second thoughts. That was the case during WWII, where the countries that fought along Allies were given the finger, and instead Turkey became West's favorite child. The French surrendered Alexandretta to Turks in order to encourage them to side with them, which didn't happen until the war was almost over, while the British led to the tragedy of Cyprus in order to appease Turkey.

All this is supposed to be because Turks accepted the Jews of Spain and the current Turkish state was created by donmeh cryptojews, so the West chose to ignore the genocides of the Christian populations during the 20th century (and completely forget the role of the Jews during the Ottoman occupation).

Now Kurds have become another USA's favorite, which in the future will bite USA in the ass. Americans have learnt nothing from their experiments in Afghanistan.

By the way, August 7, 1933 is the day of the final episode in the Assyrian genocide, when Kurds irregulars massacred the remaining Assyrians. August 7 is the day of commemoration of the Assyrian genocide.

[–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

donmeh cryptojews,

The Turkish islamic rightists for the longest time claimed that the religious rule in Turkey was overthrown by crypto Jews and Freemasons. Is this true? Was Ataturk a crypto?

And are the Assyrians Aryan?

[–]asterias 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Kemal was indeed a crypto, and the "Young Turks" consisted mainly of cryptos and freemasons. So the "Young Turks" were considered secular, while the "Old Turks" were considered similar to the Saudis in the religious sense. Both regimes were equally bloodthirsty, but kemalists are considered modernists.

You can see many photos here and here and maybe run the articles through an online translator from Greek to English, as they contain many details on the subject.

Concerning the Assyrians, I understand that "Aryan" is often given different meanings, but they are certainly not Arabs. They had been living in the area for thousands of years, as they were the original Babylonians and not some desert tribes.