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[–]rearden-steel 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

The purpose of socialism is irrelevant. It's effect in practice has always been, always will be, and can only be, violence and degradation.

[–]UnexpectedTransmissi 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)


[–]Rationalmind 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Communism and socialism are different. The problem is that some people who identify as socialists are actually communists. So that compounds the problem.

[–]jamesK_3rd 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

They are analogous to HIV and AIDS. the ultimate state of those with HIV, will be do suffer from AIDS (medical prophylactic not withstanding).

Likewise, socialist and socialism are only a vector to arrive at the end state of communism, per Marx himself.

You might want to believe that Magic doesn't have HIV, just like you might not want to believe your beloved democratic socialism or whatever it's being referred to now, will not lead to statism and communism.

Both ideas are Very unintelligent

[–]Rationalmind 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Fair enough. I’ll concede the point. I think we need some socialist policies though. Like Medicare for All.

[–]Chipit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Biden said even if the Senate and Congress passes Medicare for All, he will veto it.

[–]Rationalmind 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Did he really? More reason not to vote for him.

[–]Intuit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The purpose of the continued beatings is to improve morale. Their effect is to degrade morale.

[–]Questionable 6 insightful - 9 fun6 insightful - 8 fun7 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

The real purpose of sex is procreation. Now go fuck yourself.

[–]soundsalad 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (89 children)

And how will you enforce socialism with people who don't want it?


[–]Questionable 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Don't worry, it will be slow, gradual and honest. First thing is to set up social security for all the people. And then gradually over the course of the next 70 years, they will rob us blind, murdering billions with drugs, viruses and illegal wars. Eventually turning to pure debauchery and hedonism, raping and murdering children, while smoking rock cocaine, drenched in the blood of the innocent in the basement of a pizzeria.

Hmm.. Something about that doesn't seem right, starting immediately after that whole safety net for the people thing. Though I can't quite put my finger on it.

[–]TheAmeliaMay 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (87 children)

I don't believe that forcing a system onto someone with violence is a bad thing. For example, we must force people to not kill each other, and use violence to do so.

The problem with Socialism is not that it's forced upon people, every system is, but rather that the system does not serve the People. It strips us of our freedoms, rights, and prosperity in the name of equality of outcome. This goal is never achieved, however, since in every instance Socialism has led to a small elite living in luxury while the rest of the population starves.

But you can't pretend like this doesn't happen in Capitalism. It does, just instead of bureaucracy and written rules it's adhocracy and unwritten rules. The only benefit of Capitalism is that it's harder to develop from an oligarchy into a monarchy — and inherently oligarchies are more free since each oligarch can balance-out the opinions of the rest. It's still not a Democracy, however.

When people care more about material wealth than each other, society will inevitably suffer. That is why Capitalism and Socialism always fail. What we need is not Materialism, but Populism.

[–]UnexpectedTransmissi 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

For example, we must force people to not kill each other, and use violence to do so.

Nobody is forcing me to not kill anyone. If there were no police I would not go on a rampage.

[–]TheAmeliaMay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just because you don't do something doesn't mean nobody else will.

[–]soundsalad 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

No, you don't have to force most people to not kill. Mutual cooperation is human nature, not irrational mass murdering rampages.

[–]TheAmeliaMay 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just because you don't have to force most people to not kill, doesn't mean that you don't have to force anyone to not kill. You're assuming that because most people aren't criminals, that criminals don't exist, which is entirely wrong.

[–]Intuit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't believe that forcing a system onto someone with violence is a bad thing. For example, we must force people to not kill each other, and use violence to do so.

The only justified force is self-defense. The aggressor can be met with potentially lethal force if he threatens you with serious harm. They are not at all the same thing, even though both involve deadly force.

[–]TheAmeliaMay 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're still violently enforcing self-defense.

[–]Intuit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OK, I take it you're using violence in a neutral sense to describe force directed at causing bodily injury or death. Absolutely, self-defense is violence. If someone else has decided that it's either you or them, rather than peacefully solving whatever dispute they have, then they're basically asking you if you consider your values of non-aggression more worthy than theirs of aggression, your life over theirs.

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (78 children)

So what if it happens in Capitalism?

[–]DoubleReverse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (65 children)

Corporations make you work away your life under terrible conditions in exchange for barely enough money to stay alive. Remind you of anything?

[–]Chipit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

Actually corporate workers are rather well paid. Far better paid than under socialism.

[–]DoubleReverse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

I'm sure the almost half of all employed Americans who make less than living wage will be thrilled to know that they're actually rather well paid. Thank you for being the one who has the heart to stand up for the wealthy elite, downtrodden as they are.

[–]Chipit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Those aren't corporate workers. Corporate jobs are white collar jobs.

And come on, you're a socialist. Don't even pretend you give a shit about the working class! It's all about identity politics now. The old-fashioned "we're on the side of the working class" got shitcanned a long time ago.

The left's visceral hatred of the working class overflowed like a broken sewer when John McCain chose Sarah Palin as his vice presidential running mate in 2008. It would be impossible, and disturbing, to attempt to identify the single most offensive comment that leftists lobbed at Palin. One can report that attacks on Palin were so egregious that leftists themselves publicly begged that they cease; after all, they gave the left a bad name. The Reclusive Leftist wrote that it was a "major shock" to discover "the extent to which so many self-described liberals actually despise working people."

The cultural distance between far left and working class people is now vast and I see little reason why that should change. Here's a really good explanation of why this happened, the best I've ever seen. Please read it:

[–]DoubleReverse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Those aren't corporate workers. Corporate jobs are white collar jobs.

They still need a living wage.

[–]Chipit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Yeah, when you're making $75-150k, you got no problems.

I notice you didn't bother to address the working class issue, that one's a no-win for the left these days. Can't take back the years of ugly bigotry and punching down. Can't shake the devil's hand then say you're only kidding.

[–]DoubleReverse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Yeah, when you're making $75-150k, you got no problems.

The issue is that most people aren't making 75-150k$.

I notice you didn't bother to address the working class issue

I'm the one advocating for higher working class wages, you're clearly just trying to change the subject.

[–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

Americans are extremely well paid.

[–]DoubleReverse 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

The poverty is just our imagination?

[–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

There are about 7.8 billion, Americans are at the top.

[–]DoubleReverse 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

That's delightful, but our bosses should be paying us a living wage instead of maximizing their own personal profits.

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

How do the Corporations do that?

[–]DoubleReverse 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

By suppressing wages and pocketing the excess. By charging as much as they can for as little as possible. By running propaganda mills like the alt right to keep pro-corporate and anti-labor, anti-consumer conservatives in office.

[–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

What is stopping you/anyone else from outcompeting those corporations?

[–]DoubleReverse 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Easier said than done, but that's beside the point. All workers need a living wage, not just successful entrepreneurs.

[–]Druullus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

The point is that people who own/run corporations make to much money? What is stopping you/anyone else from outcompeting those corporations, while hiring the workers?

What is a living wage?

[–]DoubleReverse 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

The point is that they could afford not to underpay their employees, but they still do.

What is stopping you/anyone else from outcompeting those corporations, while hiring the workers?

I don't have the time, money, or risk capacity to start a business and even if I did I'd be outcompeted by giant corporations who have money, political influence, predatory business models, and a total lack of scruples. What's your point?

What is a living wage?

Enough to pay for your basic needs and still have enough left over for savings or discretionary.

[–]TheAmeliaMay 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

What is "it"?

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

But you can't pretend like this doesn't happen in Capitalism.

[–]TheAmeliaMay 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

This = force and violence.

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Private ownership, the price system, free trade, property rights, voluntary exchange and freedom of choice etc; is based on force and violence.

[–]TheAmeliaMay 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Yes. You cannot have anything without enforcing it through violence.

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Then it's not Capitalism!

[–]TheAmeliaMay 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Then Capitalism doesn't exist.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)


    [–]UnexpectedTransmissi 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    It's the prisoner's dilemma... it only works if we're all on board.

    [–]Intuit 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Still doesn't work. It can't solve the economic calculation problem.

    [–]UnexpectedTransmissi 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    God dammit I love saidit

    [–]Rah 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

    No surprise here. A plagiarist defending his tribe's ideas.

    [–]FediNetizen 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

    "his tribe's ideas"

    What nonsense is this?

    1. Jews are a bunch of bankers and moneylenders. They like capitalism because it keeps them at the top of the hierarchy
    2. Jews are socialists that want equity for everyone. They want to dismantle our wonderful capitalist system.

    You get to pick one.

    It's also pretty retarded to call him a plagiarist. No one could have told you how much light would curve around the sun before Albert Einstein presented his theory of relativity.

    [–]Rah 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

    Einstein was a jew. Only the exception of jews would condemn socialism, and that exception is highly schewed towards libertarians, who open the gates to socialists.

    If you think it is retarded to call a plagiarist a plagiarist, Nikola Tesla would like to have a word with you.

    [–]FediNetizen 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

    If you think it is retarded to call a plagiarist a plagiarist

    Nope, you don't get to beg the question here, particularly after dodging the question that you should have been able to answer if your plagiarism claim were actually true. I'll repeat it in case you missed it the first time: Who could have predicted the precise curvature value of light around the sun before Einstein?

    Spoiler alert: I already know you won't be able to come up with an answer to this question, because no one could before Einstein presented his theory of relativity. We did already know that light could bend in the presence of gravity, but the time dilation that comes from the presence of high gravity fields was something we didn't understand, and the answer a physicist would have given you before Einstein would have been off by a factor of 2. It's only with Einstein's relativity that you can come up with a precise value.

    [–]Rah 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

    I cannot predict or not what a scientist would think or not after his death. All i know is Einstein plagiarized most of the work of others to create his theory, while true geniuses had to sell their work for pennies to survive. You by standard do not get to choose who is worth or not of praise, since your own thoughts are already corrupted by what is worth or not.

    I get to beg the questions I want because I dont worship nor have feelings of praise for those that advocate for genocide through authoritarian measures disguised as good intentions.

    [–]FediNetizen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I cannot predict or not what a scientist would think or not after his death.

    That's nice, doesn't matter though. I'm asking you to prove you're not full of shit by naming a scientist who published works that we can use to predict the amount light curves when it passes close to the sun. You said Einstein was a plagiarist. Who did he plagiarize to come up with his formulas here?

    [–]Questionable 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    You said Einstein was a plagiarist. Who did he plagiarize to come up with his formulas here?

    That's nice. Next time just say that. Now to put an end to this nonsense. Scientists adding and expanding on other peoples work is not plagiarism.

    Now remind me, what was the topic again? Home repair? This is the DIY sub is it not?

    [–]Questionable 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Ah Hah! Yet I shall beg of thė an even more relevant and important question good sir!

    How many spoons did Albert Einstein Typically keep on hand for soups?

    Spoiler alert: WhAtThe̱̖̭̮ #Fu̯̭̱̞̙̗̔ͩ̾͊̊̿Cḵ̮̟̩͈̼̍ͮ̀͐ͮ̂ ̟͇̝̝̬͒ͫͬ̉̍A͈͙͖͍̮̩r̍ͨ̾̽̄̌ȅ͙̯͎ͣ͑ ̩̠Yͪ̿ͯ͆ő̺̰͔̰̼̜̞͋ͦͨͨ̌̑ú͈͇͓̽ͫ ė̷̢̦͈̬͈̤͊͘v̸̮͓̹̥̖͓̪̝͖̳̜͕͑͆̓͋̚͘ȩ̵̧͚̲͉̹̻̮̰̭̗͖̼̣̙̜̔̃̈Ń̶̖̖͒̓͛̐͘͘͝͝ ̶̡̯̘̥̠̳̦͇̰̥̰̜̯̘̗̹̀̌̿͊̏͝͝͝T̵͖̩͚̞̮̄̏̕̕A̷͓̱̣̬̜͗͘L̶̡͚̯̦̜̞̣̰̟͔͖͙͐̍͋̆͌̽̎̈́͊́̕k̴͕̖͙̘͖̣̎̌͒̋̾i̶̘͕̿̏n̸̨̡̠̩͖̣̣̱̜̹̹̘̞̦͖̓͌G̸̢̖̥̦̞̜̝̪̮̥̣̭͓̺͊̿͠ #ab̰͌O̝ͤU͖̜͇ͧ͛̔T̰̜̗ͭ̊̒!!!‼‽

    [–]EndlessSunflowers[S] 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

    I was thinking about this yesterday,
    everyone can pretty much agree that unity is better for us than division,
    but then someone will slap a loaded label on that situation, call it socialism, and people lose their shit, lol, easily manipulated minds

    [–]goobandit 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

    everyone can pretty much agree

    Yeah, I’m gonna have to stop you right there

    [–]rearden-steel 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I assure you it is not the label that makes people lose their shit about socialism. It is the track record.

    [–]soundsalad 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    It's not jut a label. Among other things, it's the collective ownership and sharing of the means of production. And what are those? Is my body a means of production? Very slippery slope.

    [–]Markimus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Is my body a means of production?

    No and socialists historically were against commodification of the body IE prostitution and such. Means of production are things (means) used in order to produce other things (production). Tools and the factory housing those tools, for example.

    [–]soundsalad 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Means of production are things (means) used in order to produce other things (production).

    You use your body to produce everything.

    [–]Markimus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    i hope to god youre actually stupid and not just making a fool of yourself intentionally

    [–]SaidOverRed 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    No dawg, the entire rise of the West was the triumph of the individual. Only then does society advance more rapidly than anyone could have guessed.

    [–]Druullus 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    isn't it predatory to rob Peter to pay Paul?

    [–]worstthanhipster2 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Fake soyence.

    [–]SaidOverRed 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    that man? Albert Einstein


    [–]poopdawg15 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    No evidence exists whatsoever that there can be a form of government other than the idle few living well at the expense of the laboring masses. The Iron Law of Oligarchy.