GC: Why aren't trans men allowed to have their own spaces?

Genderbender · 2021-02-04T15:16:13+00:00

They are men. GCs always talk about the need for female only spaces, so why don't they understand that trans men also need their own spaces.

Genderbender · 2021-02-04T02:44:46+00:00

They are not cis men, but the want to go topless like the other men, not like women.

Genderbender · 2021-02-03T23:13:36+00:00

I don’t define myself by my biology either but I know I have one. Being an adult human female is just a fact, nothing else.

Many of us have gender identities beyond our biology. I was born female, but even if I wasn't, I would still identify as a woman. Even now I identify as a woman based on my gender identity, not my biology.

The nipples of female trans people are not targeted more than the nipples of other female people so there is no need for a conversation just about about the nipples of female trans people when all female people have the same problem. TikTok is not a trans exclusive space either.

Those men were speaking for themselves as trans men, not as females. GCs always talk about the need for female only spaces, so I don't understand why they don't understand that trans men also need their own spaces.

Anyone experiencing a period is by definition not a man so no.

Not true. Women, men and enbies get periods.

Periods not inducing manly feelings is pretty common overall and not limited to trans people. Women rather wanting to be men is not that unusual either.

Trans men are men, and they have male gender identities. Of course it's distressing to them when they feel like less of men. But to be clear, everyone's trans experience is different and periods don't do induce these feelings for all trans men. Also, I never wanted to be a man.

Periods are physically a nuisance but it’s not the reason I hate it, my first period was traumatic as it made me aware of having a female reproductive system and I hated knowing that.

So it's wrong of me to hate my period?

It seems you think a trans person’s emotional experience is always entirely different from a the experience of a non-trans person.

Not always though. But a trans persons experience is a trans person's experience. A cis person's experience is a cis person's experience.

Aren’t you doing the same thing then? You complain about GCs talking over female trans people despite you not being a female trans person yourself. So either it’s okay to complain about how other groups treat female trans people despite not being a female trans person (including GC) or it’s not okay for anyone (including you).

I read articles by trans men, subs for trans men, watch video's by trans men about being trans, etc. At least when I listen to trans men's words, I work on myself on being a better ally. When GCs read trans men's words, they instantly call trans men selfish and narcissistic. Just here and here, they complain when celebrities come out as trans. GCs don't have any intention of becoming allies to trans men, yet complain when trans women aren't the perfect allies.

I bet male trans people did a thread celebrating the ban too.

Sure, but the point is GCs act like they are supportive of trans men but actual trans men say they aren't.

You seem to think I would find that surprising. I am not GC because I think female trans people support GC, I don't really care if they support GC or not. I'm GC because I am critical of gender. I am GC because I don't think sex can be changed and it goes against my moral principles to lie about trans people being the opposite sex.

OK, but I believe GCs need to stop complaining about how trans women mistreat trans men. On r/FTM, trans men themselves made numerous posts complaining about gender critical, and there are very few posts complaining about trans women. I might as well do a poll asking r/FTM if they would choose GC or the trans community to be their allies. I will bet all of my life savings most (if not all) will pick the trans community.

Genderbender · 2021-02-01T19:48:45+00:00

This is a debate sub. I don't post on exclusively GC subs.

Genderbender · 2021-02-01T04:05:54+00:00

On the contrary, I would say virtually all women that you consider 'cis' understand that menstruating makes them 'less of ' (read: not at all) a man.

Because cis women are not men. Trans men are men.

You say most people don't define themselves by their biology, but when it comes to classifying oneself into the categories of man or women, virtually all of us do make this classification on the basis of biology: women understand that they are by definition not men (adult human males, as per every English language dictionary), because of the reality of their biology, which includes the potential of menstruation.

Well trans people exist and so does the concept of gender identity, so not everyone defines themselves by biology.

Genderbender · 2021-02-01T01:48:26+00:00

A man is an adult human male, that’s biological, not social. Having different social categories for men and women is what we call sexism, something I am against.

Most of us don't define ourselves by our biology.

If you have a gender identity we are not speaking for you, we are speaking for people who don’t have gender identities and therefor don’t want to be labeled with false cisgender gender identities.

Fair point.

We are not cisgender. I don’t mind you having a gender identity, your mind, your business, but we speak for our own minds and we don’t have gender identities. Regarding freeing the nipple, female nipples being seen as indecent is the business of every female person, not just the business of female trans people so every female person should be able to speak about it.

This was about trans men being allowed to show their nipple, not women. Women can speak about their oppression in different spaces.

Men are adult human males and never experience periods so no.

Some men experience periods.

People are individuals so there are billions of different of emotions people can have regarding their periods so every individual’s experience with periods will be unique. The way female trans people talk about their experience with periods is relatable to me though. I don’t know your experience with periods but as you talked about periods being emotionally uncomfortable for trans people as a supposed difference between them and people with cisgender gender identities like yourself it seems you don’t find your own period uncomfortable so I would probably relate to your experience much less.

I hate my period. I wish it didn't exist. I take birth control to stop my period. However, I'm not going to claim my experience is necessarily the same as trans men's. For instance, a trans man wrote an article about how getting his period made him feel like less of a man. I don't know any (cis) women who say getting their period makes them feel like less of a man. For instance in this thread, a trans man was devastated that he got his period. I know about this thread because Ovarit made a thread mocking him. I always dreaded my period, but I was never devastated and distraught over this.

You made a specific claim that we would accuse male trans people for being evil if they were for freeing the nipple, and I said I wouldn’t call anyone evil for wanting to free the nipple. Now you are talking about something else and about people I’m not.

My problem is GCs constantly complain about trans women talking over trans men but talk over trans men themselves. I know my OP is not the examples, so I'll use another. On Reddit, a trans man made a thread about how some trans women talk over trans men, but emphasized not all trans women do this. GC in the old sub made a thread responding to the post. They said in the title the trans women are over sexualized, even though trans men never accused trans women of being oversexualized in that thread. They talk about how trans women are narcissistic and don't care about these poor trans men who should return to their sisters who love them. Yet GCs talk over trans men themselves. For instance, when they insist trans men transition due to misogyny or being lesbians in denial, even when actual trans men say that's not the case. Heck, when r/GenderCritical was banned, r/FTM made a thread about how happy they were that the sub was banned. There are a few other threads talking about how much they hated gender critical and "TERFs", how GC folks make them uncomfortable. From my research of that sub alone, there are more threads complaining about GCs than threads complaining about trans women. Yet when trans men ask women not to speak over them, GCs insult them. What is the difference between trans women speaking over trans men and cis/natal women speaking over trans men? Both groups are speaking over trans men.

Genderbender · 2021-01-31T15:29:30+00:00

They are female. I don't care if they acknowledge it or not as it doesn't change that they remain female. I am not going to lie for anyone, including these adult human females.

Biologically, yes. But socially they are men. For instance, I am a cis woman and so are most GC people (although they don't use the term cis). Although we are both biologically female I don't agree with many of the things they say about trans women. I don't feel trans women are oppressing me. But I don't go on Ovarit and other GC spaces telling GCs they aren't oppressed by trans women. It's their spaces. They can speak about the oppression they face as GC women, as long as they don't speak for me and cis women who don't want to be spoken for. Trans men should be able to discuss their oppression without cis women interfering.

They experience it as female people as female people are the only one who can menstruate. Had they been men they would never have menstruated even once in their life as men never menstruate.

They experience periods as men.

Me hating getting periods has an emotional layer to it too as I hate knowing I can get pregnant. Female people can have all sorts of feelings (including wanting to be a man), and it doesn't make anyone a man.

A trans person's experience with periods and a cis person's experience with periods are entirely different.

I wouldn't. Many adult human males who want to women are AGP though but that's just a fact, just like many adult human females who want to be men are AAP. I am not going to ignore facts just because it hurt their feelings.

Many would though. For example, there is a thread on Ovarit titled TIFs need to notice how little TIMs actually care about them.... They literally discuss how trans men only ever complain about trans women harassing them and not trans men and when they point it out they are silenced. GC has numerous times made posts about trans women talking over trans men, even on the old GC sub. Yet somehow its OK for cis women to talk over trans men, and when trans men point it out, they are called misogynists. It's a double standard. If you support trans men calling people out, you can't decide which groups they are allowed to call out and which groups they aren't allowed to call out.

Genderbender · 2021-01-31T06:18:11+00:00

Trans men are not female and that is the point. There is a thread on Reddit titled Trans men of reddit, what problems do you deal with that people of other identities don't know or think about?. Here is a quote from a comment:

One final thing I'd like to say has to do with what I call benevolent transphobia, which is when people believe that we are men, sort of, but more like men-lite or "good" men who have been socialized as women, which lends us all of our positive characteristics that they value, and which off-set our negative man qualities. An example of this is when people say that trans men are better than cis men because we understand what it's like to be women - no, honestly, I do not. I only know what it's like to be dysphoric in a woman's body.

Yes there are some experiences exclusive to people AFAB, like periods. But when trans men experience periods, they experience it as trans men and may be different from what cis women experience. For example in this article, a trans man wrote:

A period in and of itself can be uncomfortable for any individual, and being transgender adds another emotional layer to that.

The reason I brought up trans women is because if trans women started replying about not being allowed to show their breasts and trans men called them out, GC would make a post about how trans women are evil, narcissistic, AGP, etc. Yet when cis women do the same thing they get upset when trans men call it out.

This is why I can't stand when GC complains trans women talk over trans men. I mean, if one group is talking over the other it should be pointed out, but when trans men point out GC talking over them, GCs get upset or don't use the criticism to change their ways. Like, don't criticize people for something you do yourself.

I edited my post to finish the sentence that somehow wasn't typed. Thank you for pointing it out.

Genderbender · 2021-01-29T07:40:11+00:00

I mean I can't force you to recognize or accept someone's identity, but if you're intentionally going to dead name and use the wrong pronoun for somebody, I won't take whatever you have to say seriously and I won't be your friend.

Genderbender · 2021-01-13T22:48:16+00:00

I've been using both men's and unisex restrooms without a problem.

Genderbender · 2021-01-13T22:47:41+00:00

Bathrooms are separated by stalls. I think we should eliminate gaps in the stalls but that's another issue. But it shouldn't matter who is in the next stall, as long as they are minding their own business. But segregated spaces is not the answer.

Genderbender · 2021-01-13T03:26:52+00:00

Girls in africa miss school because they are humiliated for having a period, and there is lack of access to menstrual products like pads or cups or even a lack of bathrooms. One 14 year old girl took her own life after being humiliated by a teacher after having her period and staining her uniform.

Kenyan schoolgirl takes her own life after 'period shaming'

Globally, periods are causing girls to be absent from school

Why Periods Are Keeping Girls Out of School & How You Can Help

This has nothing to do with unisex bathrooms, which I have been using for years without a problem. If someone is harassing someone else, it's their behavior that is a problem, not their presence. Though I do recall an incident in high school where I was harassed by fellow cis girls in the locker room. That's OK apparently, because we're all females.

Genderbender · 2021-01-12T05:51:40+00:00

If neither side can be proven, people shouldn’t be fired or ostracized for believing and stating one over the other

Than find a company that welcomes your transphobia.

There’s ample proof that transwomen are men and transmen are women. Biology. Reproduction. Chromosomes. And so much more. Like... there’s just so much that disproves the idea that TWAW/TMAM

But most of us don't define ourselves by our biology and many external sex characteristics like genitalia or appearance can be modified.

Google is your friend and it’s free, but if you’d like to exchange links, you can link me proof that transwomen are women and I’ll send you just a few of the several links that back up the statement that narcissism is common if not rampant in the trans community.

You're the one that claimed that there are multiple studies that trans people are narcissists.

Sex is not a mental state. if what you’re saying is true, they’d literally be identifying with typical sexual function, or bodies they don’t have, not gendered stereotypes, you haven’t really made a good case for them not being delusional. It’s not mentally sound to identify with a vagina or a penis or with fat distribution, or a set of chromosomes, and since you’ve said they identify with the opposite sex, that’s what you’re saying here. Maybe delusional isn’t the proper word- mental illness of some type surely is.

Gender identity is a mental state. Most of us define ourselves by our gender identity. If I was born male, I would feel uncomfortable and want to transition. The only reason I don't is because I was born in the correct body. That doesn't make me delusional.

Lesbians? Or straight females who think they’re men and want homosexual men to be with them? I’ll have to look it up because it’s still not too clear to me

Trans men aren't lesbians. They aren't female either.

But you will take away a female’s ability to class herself separate from males?

I have no issues with GC females classifying themselves as a separate sex.

You’ll take away her safe spaces to give them to men who think they’re women?

Trans women are women, not men who think they're women. Though to answer your question, yes.

Will you make a female play sports with males because the males claim to be women/girls?

I think sports is the only thing that should be sex segregated.

Would you give a scholarship intended for females to a male if he identifies as a woman?

Yes.

Will you send male rapists to female prisons because of their sense of identity?

I would treat male rapists the same as female rapists. Though to be honest I think our prisons need more oversight and there should be stricter security for violent offenders.

Will you vote for a transwomen to be a political representative for females?

That’s you supporting males over females.

Passing trans women are not treated as male and go through the same things cis women go through.

Instead, you throw us all under and tell yourself it’s okay because a loud minority of females think like you and will back you up, and the men you support over females show you gratitude.

If we are a loud minority, why are you complaining about being fired and silenced for expressing GC views? Most women secretly agree with you. Though anyway, women are more likely to be QT than men.

Genderbender · 2021-01-11T22:47:00+00:00

The issue was that bathrooms and locker rooms were male only, so women demanded their own separate facilities. I have no issue with desegregating facilities.

Genderbender · 2021-01-11T22:45:15+00:00

People are getting fired for saying trans women are men”

Because it upsets trans people. There’s nothing to prove that transwomen aren’t men. Or that they are women.

“trans men are women,”

Because it upsets trans people. There’s nothing that proves that transmen aren’t women, or that they are men.

There is nothing to prove trans women are men and trams men are women.

There’s actual studies that show that narcissism is commonly found in trans people,

Link to them.

thinking you are something you literally are not is delusional

Being transgender is essentially being mentally a different sex. If you're a trans man, you're a man in a women's body, but you're still a man. That's not delusional.

idk what a fujoshi is

It's a slur GC uses for gay trans men.

You can support the oppression of females but not of Jewish people or the disabled...

I do not support the oppression of females. I have been discriminated for being female and Jewish, just not as much as I was discriminated for being disabled. But you will never hear me say women should not be allowed to enter certain professions, or women should be paid less than men, or women should be sexually harassed. I even voted for female presidential candidates.

Genderbender · 2021-01-10T22:39:41+00:00

I am all for all placee being unisex (except sports) but I'm not opposed to females creating their own spaces. Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding. By the way, I'm not trans. I'm a cis woman.

Genderbender · 2021-01-10T00:27:03+00:00

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Genderbender · 2021-01-10T00:25:33+00:00

Sorry for the late reply. I had a sore throat.

Transphobia does not mean whatever upsets trans people. People are getting fired for saying trans women are men, trans men are women, calling trans people narcissists, delusional, fetishists, fujoshis, etc.
Most of us recognize that gender is different from biological sex. We just don't believe people should be defined by their biology and biology is irrelevant outside of a medical context.
Sex is assigned on our birth certificates based on observations.
I fully understand I can't get the world to behave how I want.
Please don't tell me I'm supporting my own oppression. You don't even get to decide how I'm opposed as a female. I have multiple marginalized identities. Not only am I female, I am Jewish and learning disabled. In my life, I was discriminated more due to being learning disabled than I was due to being female and Jewish combined. I know oppression. You don't get to tell me I'm supporting my own oppression.

Genderbender · 2021-01-05T17:17:01+00:00

Where did I say being homosexual is hate speech?

Genderbender · 2021-01-05T01:38:01+00:00

I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.
Employers are allowed to fire you for posting racist, sexist and homophobic speech on your social media. Why is transphobia the exception? If this is an issue for you, go speak to your politicians. Then it will be illegal for employers to fire you based on racist, sexist, ableist, anti-Semitic, homophobic and transphobic speech you post on social media.

Also, as a cis woman (not that the cis part matters to us), pronouns are not feeding misogyny.

I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.
Sex is assigned.
Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want.
To us, we are banning hate speech.

Genderbender · 2021-01-03T20:06:12+00:00

You can always find another social circle.

Genderbender · 2021-01-03T16:02:19+00:00

But the point is, it's become culturally unacceptable to not use the pronouns asked of you. It's become dangerous to careers, family relationships, general social standing. You are labeled a "bigot" and equated to someone who commits hate crimes and does not accept homosexuality or people of other races.

First people are entitled to their opinions and if they feel you're a bigot, that is their right. You are more than welcome to find friends who agree with you. There are sites and apps specifically to meet people who share your interests.

But isn't this forcing someone to use pronouns?

It's not. She has every right not to use Riley's preferred pronouns. I have every right not to listen to her. It goes both ways.

Genderbender · 2021-01-02T23:00:04+00:00

I asked people on the internet if all bathrooms should be gender neutral. Most said yes.
You still have the right not to use someone's pronouns. No one can force you. I have the right to call you a TERF and dismiss your opinions.
You're welcome to work in a private school or another school district. The point is, sometimes your work may require you to go against your beliefs. For instance a catholic teacher who refuses to teach evolution.
Most QTs believe you can refuse to date anyone for any reason.
Yes our side considers the other side transphobic bigots. We have the right to our opinions, GCs have the right to theirs.
I was assigned female based on observation.
There are plenty of other bookshops you can shop.
Threats are not OK.
Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want. If you don't like the rules, you can sell your stuff elsewhere. You can boycott Etsy if you want.
If you create gender critical only spaces, no one will invade them as they will have a reputation for being transphobic and bigoted.
To us GC speech is hate speech. So we see this as banning hate speech.
I read Ovarit and have to see QTs troll Ovarit. I do remember QTs trolling r/gendercritical though.

Genderbender · 2021-01-02T05:31:00+00:00

I guess I get the “it’s a fact of life” thing, but it would also be a fact of life that what’s fact for qt is not fact for a large majority of the population.

Most of society has accepted trans women are women and trans men are men. Otherwise GC wouldn't complain about being cancelled or silenced and most platforms wouldn't ban GC views.

I understand that if I had preferred pronouns I’d request that others use them. but to me, if others decline, I can’t do anything but not engage with them and engage with those that call me what I wish to be called.

That's what most people do. Generally, I correct people, call them a TERF and I don't take whatever they have to say seriously. But I still can't force you to use someone's preferred pronouns.

I don’t think the staff should have to potentially compromise their beliefs either- nobody should be compelled to speak in a way that’s contrary to their beliefs. Nobody.

Than find another job. You are welcome not to work in the public schools.

I hear people say that most tras agree that we can’t control attraction etc- but I always wonder why they aren’t clarifying and speaking out over the small (they always say it’s a small amount of tras/trans people) amount who push homophobic or whatever the “heterophobic” equivalent would be narrative. I can almost accept that it’s a small percentage of tras/trans people who are extremists- but the silence of the majority is starting to feel like they’re complicit.

That's like saying Muslims are obligated to speak out against terrorism.

That’s the thing- I don’t think it’s bigotry to say a male is not a woman or a female is not a man. That’s not rooted in hatred or disdain- it comes entirely from a different understanding of sex and biology.

Most of us think that is bigotry. Most of us don’t define ourselves by our biology. While I was assigned female at birth, when I say I'm female I'm referring to my gender identity.

Agreed. But books shouldn’t be banned and lies about her shouldn’t have been spread, she shouldn’t have received death and rape threats- and allies shouldn’t have defended the sending of those threats.

Who is banning her books? This is the US, and we have free speech.

Etsy shops and such shouldn’t be shut down for being gc.

You're always welcome to find another platform to sell your stuff. You are also welcome to boycott Etsy if you don’t agree with this.

I agree- which is why enforcing pronouns and forcing females to share spaces with males is unfair to me.

You're always welcome to create your own spaces. You can open up gender critical gyms and keep people assigned male at birth out of women’s locker rooms. You can open up GC schools. Just mainstream society is OK with gender neutral bathrooms and you're welcome not to use mainstream facilities.

as far as I know, Reddit is not an lgbt site. Reddit should have remained neutral also-

Reddit is neutral. Them banning all the gender critical subs doesn't mean they aren't neutral.

Trans people troll ovarit, trolled the gc subs,

GC people also troll trans subs. Here is one example.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/ftm/comments/ggbus3/sex_party_dysphoria_nsfw/

Genderbender · 2021-01-02T00:42:16+00:00

To us the trans movement is not an ideology, it's a fact of life. If you identify as a man, you're a man. If you identify as a woman, you're a woman. By the way, the pronoun rule applies to staff, not students and I have no issue with it. Though even in high school I used she for a trans girl.

Riley is an incel. She made a video about how dating preferences are discriminatory. It wasn't about just refusing to date trans people. It was also about refusing to date people who are black, fat or disabled. That is wrong. You can refuse to date anyone for any reason. Though the video Magdalen was responding to was about "TERFs".

We can't control who we are attracted to and we can refuse to date or sleep with whoever we want. I myself have rejected some cis men because they were ugly and I just wasn't attracted to them, even though they found me hot. That's just part of live. I think most TRAs agree with this. Riley apparently doesn't.

I absolutely feel people shouldn't be threatened for stating their opinions, even if they are bigoted. but I also feel people should have the right to dismiss your opinions if they dont agree, the right to boycott your products (like Harry Potter books) or refuse to eat at your restaurant. Also if you don't like sites banning your content you can create your own site, like GC did with Ovarit. That's actually more advantageous because they don't have to follow Reddit's rules.

Genderbender · 2021-01-01T06:46:31+00:00

In most cases no one can force you to use someone's preferred pronouns. There are exceptions. Where I live the student bill of rights for public says students have the right to be addressed by a pronoun consistent with their gender identity. I have no problem with this. It's not hard to say she. I always use people's preferred pronouns. Though I do consider misgendering rude and I wont take you seriously if you misgender someone. Magdalen Berns did a video responding to a video by Riley Dennis and she kept referring to Riley as he. Because of that I automatically dismissed her arguments. She's entitled to speak her mind, I'm entitled not to take her seriously.

I don’t really think we can tell someone “you’re belief is wrong so stop believing it.”

Do you think TRAs have the power to compel you to think a certain way?

Genderbender · 2020-12-07T18:28:21+00:00

On the Elliot Page thread on Ovarit, one user said "Gender dysphoria my whole ass."

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/10255/ellen-page-comes-out-as-trans-cant-have-any-good-lesbian-rep-anymore/6975ab33-9106-42e9-873e-3fd0095de8ca#comment-6975ab33-9106-42e9-873e-3fd0095de8ca

In the video Radical Feminist Reacts to "How to know if you're Non Binary", at 7:50, a trans masculine person named Moe says they were happy people weren't seeing them as a woman. Vanessa Vokey then said "What she really means here she was happy people weren't viewing her as a sexual object." Maybe they don't want to be seen as a woman due to dysphoria? The trans enby previously said they realized they were trans when being seen as a dude felt better than being seen as a woman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpXKTgQV7RQ

The comments in that same video.

The "why?" is so important. Why would someone have gender dysphoria? It could be autism, not fitting in and wanting a community, being gender non conforming because of being gay, csa, being agp or being mentally ill.

And the idea of being cis is bizarre. What girl was comfortable with her body in puberty?

While as a fellow radical feminist I do agree with many of your points here I would not call her a "groomer" and would have a bit more of empathy toward a young woman who was groomed by genderism. She's a victim of patriarchy, how it pushes girls and women to hate ourselves, it is something to never forget when we are talking about this subject

Yup. No possible way she could actually have dysphoria

There is a thread on r/FTM on Reddit called "Sex party dysphoria NSFW" where a trans man goes into a gay sex party and the other men physically recoiled from him and he had a bad experience. You can view removed comments on Reddit by replacing reddit with removeddit in the URL.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/ftm/comments/ggbus3/sex_party_dysphoria_nsfw/

Here is one comment the mods removed.

Instead of being so distraught. Why not be happy as yourself and just be a gender non-conforming woman?

Why would someone whose dysphoria is severe enough they decided to transition accept themselves as their sex assigned at birth?

A user on this sub who doesn't believe I would transition if I was born male.

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/6xg9/gc_do_you_genuinely_desire_to_have_more_trans_men/qe47

So you're experiencing gender euphoria lol? I've got to be honest, I don't believe you when you say the thought of being male makes you physically recoil, or that you would transition if you were male. I've asked "cis" people if they would transition or just live with it, if they woke up one day as the opposite sex. They all said they'd make the best of it.

When GC says trans men transition due to misogyny or lesbophobia, they are denying these men have dysphoria. Actual trans men said they don't like this narrative.

Feminist Trans Men & the Narrative of Internalized Misogyny

I want to die... confused, scared, am I manipulating myself?

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

Genderbender · 2020-12-06T22:49:11+00:00

I understand the GC position because I read Ovarit, s/GenderCritical and have been reading r/GenderCritical and related subs for many years. I don't pull this stuff out of nowhere. I know GC is against trans women in women's bathrooms that they even said they are willing to harass cis women who appear masculine in the women's restroom. I'm serious. The OP of this thread said she is willing to taser and pepper spray anyone who appears masculine in the woman's room. Most people in that thread agreed with her.

Will we sometimes miss men who appear female? Probably. Will we end up accidentally bothering women who look masculine? Possibly. But no one is perfect. And we must remember where the blame lies with regard to unintended harassment of masculine women: It lies squarely with trans activists for handing men access to women’s spaces. If transgenderism were not being increasingly accepted, it would be assumed that masculine-looking women are female.

One of these women, who said she was often harassed as a man, absolutely refused to believe that TRAs could be at the root of why this was happening. Nope, angry and scared women vulnerable to harassment or assault who’ve finally had enough are the villains here.

Nope. TRAs are not the root. The root is you are harassing someone in the bathroom. Unless someone is harassing you or doing something to you in the bathroom, you have no right to harass them, including questioning their presence. Now if a person is harassing you, their behavior is a problem, not their presence. I'm not going to support an ideology where it's OK to harass people in public restrooms. If this person is seriously going to do this, I hope she is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

There are many other aspects of the GC ideology I don't agree with. Misgendering is one, as I always use people's preferred pronouns. I always assume pronouns based on presentation but if someone tells me they go by different pronouns I respect that. I also disagree with them calling every other trans person narcissistic. Google allows you to search specific websites, so if you search narcissism site:ovarit.com you will get a ton of results. The name calling is prevalent all over their website.

Can you explain how are trans rights eroding women's rights and promoting homophobia?

Genderbender · 2020-12-06T21:34:05+00:00

Because I support trans rights. Because I recognize even if we eliminated gender roles, people will still have dysphoria to the point where they feel they need to modify their sex characteristics and for now transition is the only cure. Because I don't like how GC calls every other trans person narcissistic, delusional, fetishistic, mental case, lesbophobic, misogynist, fujoshi, YAOI, "everyone wants to be oppressed", accusing trans people of manipulating suicide statistics in contradiction to actual studies, saying trans people threaten suicide for attention. Because I feel all spaces should be gender neutral, except sports and I disagree with harassing people in those spaces.

Genderbender · 2020-12-06T19:10:59+00:00

What do you mean by privileged? I technically have 3 marginalized identities. I am female, Ashkenazi Jewish and disabled. I'm not rich. Though yes in many ways I'm privileged. I'm white, straight, cis, middle class, speak unaccented English, am a citizen of the US whatever. I do support abolishing gender stereotypes completely. That doesn't mean there won't be people with gender dysphoria who want to transition. I do support finding a cure for dysphoria so people will be comfortable in the bodies they are born in without surgery.

Genderbender · 2020-12-05T19:09:59+00:00

try reading your own linked page next time.

I did. I said trans people are equally everywhere and span all socioeconomic backgrounds.

I've got to be honest, I don't believe you when you say the thought of being male makes you physically recoil, or that you would transition if you were male.

Than don't

I've asked "cis" people if they would transition or just live with it, if they woke up one day as the opposite sex. They all said they'd make the best of it.

That's them, not me.

Look up 'sexual identity crisis' again – those are Brandon's own words.

But Brandon Teena ultimately decided he was a trans man. These are his words, not mine. His friends said he planned to have SRS.

As long as the fact remains that Brandon's sexual orientation was lesbian/gynophile there will always be a strong possibility that it was just another case of GNC lesbianism.

GNC lesbians don't plan to have SRS. Trans men do. What if he was straight and transitioning to a gay man? Would there still be a possibility he wasn't trans?

Genderbender · 2020-12-05T19:02:37+00:00

To an extent I agree. Some people feel they are non-binary because they wear certain clothes or like certain things. I don't agree with this. You identifying as another sex shouldn't have anything to do with stereotypes or roles.

Genderbender · 2020-12-05T17:57:46+00:00

Women don't choose to be oppressed. But being oppressed has nothing to do with identifying as trans. Yes, there are certain careers I'm not allowed into since I'm female, like garbage collection. I'd also like it to be socially acceptable for women to go topless in public. However never in a million years would I identify as trans. I've also been discriminated far more due to a learning disability. I don't want to cure my disability. I want people to stop discriminating against us, like not segregate children in separate classrooms.

Genderbender · 2020-12-05T05:33:20+00:00

Shouldn't grown adults be allowed to medically transition if they desire?

Genderbender · 2020-12-05T05:31:36+00:00

mainly occurring somewhere & occurring everywhere is the same fucking thing, peabrain

I'm saying it's mainly occuring everywhere. There are roughly as many trans people in Kenya as there are in the US.

https://qz.com/africa/1184861/a-writers-account-of-transitioning-and-transcending-gender-shows-being-trans-is-not-un-african/

that's what gender is, ignoramus, so yeah – duh

That's not what gender is. Gender identity is a sense of your own gender. I am a woman who was born female. If I was born male, I would transition. The idea of being male recoils me. Even if I don't like stereotypically femininine things, I still want to be female.

Trans men can still wear dresses, cry, wear makeup, etc. Being transgender doesn't necessarily mean espousing stereotypes of the other sex.

You forgot to mention that she constantly gets misgendered, because what I said is true. Remember, I said 'we', not 'she'.

I've never in my life heard her get misgendered.

What a convenient assumption. Too bad the evidence is to the contrary.

He clearly identified as a trans man and wanted to live as a man.

What? Only trans people have dysphoria? Seeing as 80% of kids with dysphoria desist, "cis" people with dysphoria outnumber trans people with dysphoria.

Some people have dysphoria so severe it can only be alleviated by transition. These people are trans. Yes studies confirm in 80% of children, dysphoria does not persist past puberty. However, for 20% of children it does. There are children who are genuinely trans. I do oppose medically transitioning minors. I don't think kids should be allowed to start hormones until 16 and I think SRS should not be available to minors. However, I am fine with kids identifying as a different gender and going by different pronouns.

Genderbender · 2020-12-04T22:03:34+00:00

My high school had a pants protest in the 1940s. A girl was suspended for wearing pants to school where girls could only wear skirts, so a bunch of girls showed up to school wearing pants in protest.

None of those girls ever became men. They just wanted girls to be able to wear pants in school like boys can. People should only identify as trans if they have dysphoria, not because they don’t like gender norms. There are trans guys who wear dresses, like cis guys and that’s OK. Transgenderism shouldn’t be about gender roles.

Genderbender · 2020-12-04T21:55:52+00:00

Definition of delusion:

1

a

: something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated under the delusion that they will finish on schedule

delusions of grandeur

b

psychology : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary the delusion that someone was out to hurt him

also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

2

: the act of tricking or deceiving someone : the state of being deluded

… accused the Bohemian of having practised the most abominable arts of delusion among the younger brethren.

— Walter Scott

Genderbender · 2020-12-04T21:51:05+00:00

I said mainly only occurring in the West, among the middle-classes, not 100% of them, the existence of exceptions doesn't dispute this point.

It’s not mainly only occurring in the west. It’s occurring everywhere. That’s my point.

You're saying they were wrong back then, I'm saying they're wrong now. Nowadays even lesbians as feminine as Ellen Page question their gender.

So you have to be masculine to question your gender identity? So you have to espouse stereotypes of the other gender to question your gender?

When we see any deviation from the norm the assumption is transgenderism.

Not true. I know quite a few gender non-conforming women, including one who wears suits and ties and has short hair. She still identifies as a woman and goes by she/her.

In Brandon Teena's own words it's a 'sexual identity crisis' that we are dealing with – if you look that up you'll find a lot of results on homosexuality.

I’d assume that meant he was questioning whether he was a lesbian woman or a straight man. He ultimately decided he was a man.

Lesbians wanting to be boys is far too common to use it as a reference point for "trans-men are men".

If they have dysphoria of course they’re going to want to be boys. What? Only straight women have dysphoria?

Genderbender · 2020-12-04T04:49:24+00:00

You're describing a recent phenomenon

Trans men have existed since the beginning of time. Just for many years we haven't publically acknowledged trans people.

which is mainly only occurring in the West,

Trans men exist in 3rd world countries.

among the middle-classes.

Trans men come from all walks of life.

Why would you assume that trans-men will always think of themselves as men?

There is a movie from 1999 called Boys Don't Cry about a girl who wants to pass as a man (based on a real person). At the time she was a girl, nowadays we revise history to make her a he.

Even in the documentary, Brandon Teena openly identified as a man. It's just that back then, the media referred to trans people as "cross dressers". Nowadays the media acknowledges trans people but that only started fairly recently.

Genderbender · 2020-12-04T04:37:54+00:00

If you felt you were delusional when you were trans, that is your right and I respect your opinion. But don't imply all or most trans men are delusional.

Genderbender · 2020-12-03T13:13:17+00:00

But there are MANY examples of posts where GC outright says or implies dysphoria doesn't exist.

Genderbender · 2020-12-03T05:08:39+00:00

It's OK to be disappointed at losing a prominent lesbian role model. However, the Ovarit comments go beyond that. They are literally guilting her for being trans and many comments are openly transphobic. There are a few threads on Ovarit about Elliot Page. Let me give examples from this thread which has 385 comments.

This is literal conversion therapy.

I hate letting this stuff get to me in real life but this fucking stings. her talking about finding her "authentic self" while rejecting her womanhood and lesbianism and sending a harmful, incorrect message to young lesbians/gnc girls that you cannot just be gnc, you must be trans or nonbinary or just other - anything other than the shame of being a lesbian woman, let alone a gender nonconforming one. and still, despite this terrible message she's sending, i feel so sorry for her too for falling victim to this homophobic, misogynistic cult.

Oh look, another Hollywood narcissist advancing their career. What a good fit for the TRA narcissists. In fact, they’re perfect for each other. How stunning and brave™️

People know a stunt when they see one.

I’m cancelling Netflix.

It's distressing that someone so talented beautiful and successful can also be so obviously a mental case.

"Hate" here being a word describing sadness from women and mostly lesbians who are shattered by her deeply misogynistic and lesbophobic move.

People are dying around the world from COVID, infection and death rates are spiking in US, but let's worry about pronouns and your gender identity. Yep, priorities.

It's interesting all the way on the way bottom a user wrote "The response to this is making me sad and another time when I can see why people assume we’re all hateful bigots. I thought we acknowledged that gender disphoria is a real disorder that sometimes requires transition as treatment while maintaining that biological sex is a constant and sex-exclusive spaces should be respected." This person got downvoted and one user even replied "Gender dysphoria my whole ass."

Dysphoria is when your brain tells you you're meant to be another sex. I am a woman who was born female. The idea of me being mail recoils me. If I was born male, I would transition. That's the downside of being trans, extreme body modification. But I understand why people do it and I would do it to if I had dysphoria. I know GC says all women feel discomfort with their body. I did too at one point but I never had dysphoria. That's something totally different and currently the best treatment is transition. But most GCs don't believe in dysphoria, or gender identity so this might be a hard thing for many to understand.

Genderbender · 2020-12-03T01:31:14+00:00

Maybe she wasn't a proud lesbian? Maybe she always felt like a man internally and just came out? Maybe she will be happier as a man? Though to an extent the sadness is understandable since she was one of the few prominent lesbians. I hope there are more prominent gays, lesbians and trans men in the coming years.

Genderbender · 2020-12-02T22:51:57+00:00

That's never going to happen. There will always be trans men. They will accept themselves as men, not women.

Genderbender · 2020-12-02T22:45:48+00:00

Again, you don't understand why gender critical people are pointing out/criticising the dynamic between transmen and transwomen if this is your takeaway.

I do understand why GC is pointing out this dynamic. I just don't think it's GC's place to point out this dynamic because they themselves have a sentiment against trans men.

Genderbender · 2020-12-02T18:29:27+00:00

I didn't say GCs hate trans, I said GCs are anti-trans, meaning they espouse an anti-trans sentiment frequently seen in Ovarit and other GC communities. Being upset there are trans men celebrities is one example.

Genderbender · 2020-12-02T18:18:52+00:00

If gender identity doesn't matter to GC, then why not compare trans women and cis males to cis women? If the point is natal males have male privilege over natal females, then why not compare those groups regardless of gender identity? The highest paid teen actresses in the early decade were female (i.e. Miley Cyrus, Miranda Cosgrove, Demi Lovato, Selena Gomez). Does it matter if they're trans? If you're going to talk about trans men not being represented in the public sphere, then you should support trans men in these positions. Otherwise, leave trans men out of the conversation.

Genderbender · 2020-12-02T17:18:18+00:00

Than why refer to trans women as womxyn? Why not just refer to them as women? "Trans" is an adjective.

Genderbender · 2020-12-02T04:49:01+00:00

Because it's not about you. Their lifestyle, their bodies, their choice. Also, GC's tone sounds like they're trying to guilt trans men about transitioning. I don't know if that’s their intention, but that's how it comes across. My family was against me going on anti-depressants, and stated their feelings openly. While they were entitled to their feelings, that will not affect my medical decisions and if they continued to tell me they disapproved of my decision, I would have cut contact with them.

There is another interesting about GC. When trans women are celebrities, GC complains only trans women are getting attention over trans men, like in this thread. So you'd think they'd be happy "finally trans men are getting attention instead of trans women" but nope. To me it seems like when GC says trans men get more attention than trans women, they essentially are complaining males are getting all the attention (they view trans women as men). They are not saying this out of a genuine desire to have more trans men in public positions like acting and political roles. GC is anti-trans.

Genderbender · 2020-12-01T20:07:41+00:00

The 1st study said "There were 163 transgender prisoners in 2019" "129 prisoners reported their legal gender as male, 32 as female and 2 did not state their legal gender." What does legal gender mean? Gender assigned at birth? Also, "Prisoners who have already transitioned and have a full Gender Recognition Certificate are excluded from this dataset."
This study did say suicide and depression differences between males and females. Maybe they meant anyone who identifies as male/female.
I don't know that one. Certain races also have higher rates of HIV.
There is a thread on Ovarit called Non-Binary Wins Oklahoma Seat. An AFAB non-binary Muslim won an election. "It makes me sad she can't just be a black woman who is also a Muslim." It's much harder for a non-binary person to win an election than a binary person. When trans women win an election, GC complains it's all trans women winning the elections and not trans men. When trans men win an election, it's so sad they can't be female.
Males have more overall muscle mass and less body fat than females.

Genderbender · 2020-12-01T17:59:12+00:00

Do you refer to cis women as womxxn?

Genderbender · 2020-12-01T05:10:33+00:00

'Gender identity' was appropriated by the trans movement from sociology.

Proof?

Genderbender · 2020-12-01T05:09:27+00:00

What's a womxyn?

Genderbender · 2020-12-01T04:08:23+00:00

They're trying to make it look like most trans women (and in some cases, trans men) are perverted when most aren't.

Genderbender · 2020-11-11T03:27:35+00:00

Yes. Though I think pew research is better.

Genderbender · 2020-11-02T18:42:49+00:00

I do not defend rape and incel speak. I will vote for politicians that create laws that prosecute rapists and hold police accountable for how they handle rape cases. Any rapist needs to be prosecuted and serve prison time. I did say even as TRAs we can still criticize the trans movement. It has it's problems like many other movements.
Simple, we turn all male's facilities into unisex facilities and built separate facilities for GC women. No one is going to go to a bathroom that is for …ahem…, TERFs. The negative will be outing yourself as GC by going into these bathrooms, but honestly it's only GC requesting sex segregated facilities. Most of us would have no problem with unisex bathrooms and locker rooms.
Over half of GC made that statement and I can provide you links where GC implies dysphoria doesn't exist.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/ftm/comments/ggbus3/_/fqi9wzm/

https://ovarit.com/o/WomensLiberation/1402/can-we-please-talk-about-cardi-b-s-wap

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/6840/do_most_tifs_detransition/

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/61ia/whats_the_deal_with_tifs/njgt

I can pull up more posts if you want.

Genderbender · 2020-10-31T17:47:38+00:00

The 1st statement isn't even true. There is an article on Everyday Feminism called 5 Ways Trans People Can Support Other Trans People and that article criticizes trans people. I am a TRA, and although I mostly support the trans movement, there are things I don't like about the movement. The Civil Rights Movement in the 60s was sexist, that doesn't mean I overall can't support the movement.
We'll make the men's room gender neutral and the women's room only for GC women.
Many times GC has made that statement, so I brought it up. Just like there are trans people who push others to sleep with them, even though that's not the stance of the trans movement as a whole.
To some people, Celia Cruz does sound like a man. Where I worked we hosted an event and played one of her songs. People had to be reminded it's a woman singing. Even when the Behr commercial played Color Is A Beautiful Thing by Nina Simone, I thought it was a man singing it until I went on the internet and looked up the song.
I know I can't consent for all women but I'm a majority rules person. If there was a national poll for cis women asking if trans women or males should be allowed to use the women's bathroom, or if all restrooms should be gender neutral, and 80% said yes, I will go with the 80%. If 80% of females feel uncomfortable with trans women not being allowed in women's restrooms, I will go with the 80% and not the 20%.

Genderbender · 2020-10-31T04:20:36+00:00

But that thread is full of comment's like:

Mutilating females like that should be illegal.

Again. Adults can do what they like with their bodies. There are sub comments, which talk about gender affirming surgeries being given to young children, which GC makes a good point. But adults can do what they want with their bodies.

The sweeping statements you are making here are based on a subset of young people with "gender dysphoria," namely those who developed GD in childhood and persist after puberty. These people are are and were almost exclusively male!

Ahh yes. Natal females never have gender dysphoria. And GC says they don't deny dysphoria.

Most people who have mental illnesses that emerge during or after puberty (ADHD, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, etc) don't grow out of it either. But we don't treat them by telling them to lean into their manic episodes, hallucinations, and suicidal thoughts.

Right now the only current treatment for severe dysphoria is transition. I have bipolar and ADHD and I will tell you it’s not the same.

You sound as if you're considering transition; I don't know how to put this any other way but please don't.

While I do think people who would like to go through extreme body modifications should be certain this right for them, I am sure most people are doing that, and the PP of that thread would do that if they are considering this.

I'm guessing that even the "older" women you mention who want to transition, are still young enough to have grown up in the post-Queer Theory, liberal feminism culture of violent porn, sexting, plastic surgery on demand, anal sex, hook up culture, BDSM - and they want none of it.

...

Extreme body modification as a result of not being able to cope with modern womanhood (and I don't blame you for that) is not the answer.

Dysphoria has NOTHING to do with modern womanhood or wanting to escape misogyny. Most trans men repeatedly stated they did not transition due to misogyny, yet GC continues to speak over trans men, replacing trans men's words with their own.

Accepting yourself, and the body that houses you, reaching out to other women, working with them to fight for respect and rights for women, will help you find happiness a thousand times more than undergoing dangerous, traumatic surgery to make yourself a facsimile of a man.

Many people with dysphoria won't be happy until they transition.

Genderbender · 2020-10-31T03:34:00+00:00

I understand some GC believe this, not all. But I've never heard anyone outside of GC say this So this is a GC specific stance. Anyway, what does this have to do with you being a WOC?
OK, we will stay out of your spaces. Even as a cis woman I will now exclusively use men's restrooms and locker rooms.
My comment was aimed at people who believe dysphoria doesn't exist. Many do, and I can link to posts that prove it.
One reason is if you don't fit someone else's idea on what it means to be a woman, you will be harassed. Look at this thread on GenCyn TERFs harass trans woman in the restroom. A user on the old GC sub started a thread about how she was in a bar bathroom and heard someone with a male voice. She questioned what is this person doing there from her stall and the person's friend was mad at her for misgendering the person. She assumed the person was male based on their voice. Celia Cruz sounds like a man, as well as a few other female singers.

I will say if I am in a public place I will be upset if a random person (except employees) questioned what am I doing in a public place. I have told people off who questioned why I'm in the men's room. It's interesting when GC says they're fine with trans men using women's facilities, yet this is what's going to happen when a passing trans men when they enter women's facilities, as long as people continue to question men in women's restrooms. Are you going to require people to show their IDs for using the bathroom?

Another thing is many women won't mind males in their restrooms and believe trans women should have the right to use the women's restroom. Truthfully, I don't care who’s in the stall next to me or who’s changing next to me, as long as they are minding their own business.

Genderbender · 2020-10-30T18:00:10+00:00

I have posted that because I have seen multiple posts by GC.
All we're asking you to do is to stop using trams men to insult trans women. Most of the mantra is based on gender stereotypes and can be easily disproven? Isn't GC against gender stereotypes, or natal sex stereotypes?
Some people say you don't to have dysphoria to be trans. That's different from saying dysphoria doesn't exist.
No one is required to justify why they feel unsafe.

Genderbender · 2020-10-30T15:30:05+00:00

Just look at this thread.

Doctor who chops off TiFs’ breasts calls herself “Tit Wizard” - where is the outrage?

Why should there be outrage? Adults can do what they want with their bodies.

Genderbender · 2020-10-30T15:24:39+00:00

Some GC understand people of all identities can support the trans movement, some don't. Anyway, how does GC know the demographics of GenCyn?
Many trans men are tired of being used to insult trans women. Look at these threads.

TERFs and trans masc/AFAB people

They really believe this - Trans men are perfect princesses, and trans women are rapists and murderers

The second thread is a screenshot of this conversation:

TIFs: Hello boys, can we go here?

Men: No.

TIFs: Oh bother. Thank you fellas anyway. Bye! (◕ᴗ◕✿)

TIMs: Hello girls, can we go here?

Women: No.

TIMs: rapemurderfuckyourapestabkillyoubitches foams at the mouth

Hmmm... I wonder what's different. Hmmm...

For one this isn't even true. There was a case where over 150 LGBT students were escorted out of Iowa state capitol after a group of trans kids refused to leave the men’s restroom and use gender-neutral restrooms. Trans men themselves say in those threads they don't ask cis men before using men's restrooms and locker rooms. I'm a cis woman, I have used the men's restroom a few times, and I don't care what men think. So clearly this rambling came out of nowhere except stereotypes. GC had numerous threads where they say trans men are nice and subservient while trans women are violent and threatening. Since r/gendercritical was banned and Ovarit and s/gendercritical are new, it will be hard for me to pull up threads.

In addition to gender stereotyping, these kind of statements assume that trans men are OK with the way GC treats trans women or that trans men will not stand up for themselves, neither which is the case. Trans men are fighting for the rights to use men's restrooms and locker rooms, be called with the correct pronoun, and they will stand up to transphobia as much as trans women will.

Cite a source where QT claimed dysphoria doesn't exist. I have been citing my sources.
Some females would feel unsafe not allowing trans women in their bathrooms, including me.
Most of my friends believe people should have a right to use the restroom that matches their gender identity and are against misgendering.

Genderbender · 2020-10-29T17:29:47+00:00

There are at least a few posts where GC says the trans movement is a white male or upper class movement.
In basic terms, don't use trans men to insult trans women. You can say trans women are narcissistic and AGP. You can't say trans women are silencing trans men, or trans men are nicer than trans women. When insulting trans women, don't mention trans men (unless you're insulting them too).
There are also many GC people that deny dysphoria exists, like this comment.
You do not get to decide what makes other females unsafe. I am a majority rules kind of person. If the majority of women are OK with males in women's bathrooms, so be it.
Most of my female friends support trans rights. We are OK with making all bathrooms gender neutral (with no gaps in the stalls).

Genderbender · 2020-10-29T03:36:30+00:00

GC literally said in the 1st thread that there is only one WOC on GenCyn and everyone else is a white male. In the 2nd thread, a teacher said trans kids only exist in wealthy white communities. She teaches in a poor inner city school and says there are no trans kids.
Because you're using trans men to insult trans women. If you want to insult trans women, call them narcissistic, AGP, go ahead. Just leave trans men out of it.
I have seen many deny dysphoria.
Not all of us would be safe and comfortable if GC had its way. We are also women and we know what is and isn't safe for us. We're tired of GC speaking for all women. They only speak for themselves.
Most of my friends are liberal, vote democrat and support social justice.

Genderbender · 2020-10-29T01:41:48+00:00

I have seen GC imply and openly state the trans movement is a white male movement, or an upper class movement and even cited a few sources.
You misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote don't use trans men to insult trans women. Please don't say things like "the TIMs are silencing the TIFs". If you want to insult trans women, leave trans men out of it. It's one thing to insult trans women, it's another low to use trans men to insult trans women when you insult trans men yourselves.
I have seen GC deny dysphoria exists, like the post above saying dysphoria is a 1st world problem. When GC people say trans men transition to escape misogyny, or because they are short little girls, they are denying dysphoria.
I'd like GC to stop pretending they speak for every women, especially when there are over 3 billion women in the world and many do not share GC views. I and my female friends are OK with any gender changing in our locker rooms. I know because we discuss these things. That said, I hang out in liberal circles.

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T18:09:43+00:00

A few things.

Remember trans people span across all races and social classes. For instance, in the thread The idiots at GenCyn finally discover Ovarit. GC brought up that a GenCyn user is an Iranian trans man. One user wrote:

She gets so much attention from gencyn cuz she's the one WoC they actually have in their midst of privileged, white males.

I read Gencyn for many years and participated there as a cis woman. Not everyone there is a privileged white males. Another thread is TIF was "found bleeding down there" and went to the hospital where the doctor be like "you are on your period" where one user said "“Dysphoria” is such a first world problem." Another thread from the old GC sub is Transgender student in a musical. This is an archived thread and the OP's mom is a teacher who has a trans (FTM) student in a musical. Unfortunately, not all the comments were saved. I do remember another person also claimed to be a teacher and said trans kids only exist in rich white communities, and in her poor inner city school district there are no trans kids, just GNC kids.

There are black trans people. There are brown trans people. There are poor trans people. There are trans people in 3rd world countries. There are trans people in Syria and North Korea. There are black and disabled trans people. There are black, disabled and poor trans people.

That said, QT should also stop using other marginalized people to compare it to trans oppression.

Please stop pretending to care about trans men. I understand GC will continue to claim they include trans men in their feminism, even though they don’t. But stop using trans men to insult trans women. For instance, on reddit a trans man started a thread on how some trans women talk over trans men. In response GC in the old sub created a thread titled "TIF’s discuss how badly they are treated by over-sexualized and narcissistic TIM’s". The thread unfortunately wasn't archived, but I did save a comment "TIW: men do not give a fuck about you. Please come back to your sisters who love you." Honestly GC silences trans men also, like saying dysphoria is a "first world problem", calling trans men narcissistic for wanting their pronouns respected, the same thing they are accusing trans women of doing. If GC genuinely cared about trans men they would uplift trans men's voices in response to this. No, they are just using trans men to prove trans women are narcissistic and fetishistic and then they will accuse trans men of the same things.

If you're going to insult trans women, fine. Just leave trans men out of it. This goes for any other marginalized group as well.

Acknowledge dysphoria exists. I am a cis woman. I am disgusted at the thought of me having a penis. If I was born male or woke up male the next day I would transition. The only reason I don't have dysphoria is because I was born in the correct body.

Also dysphoria affects people differently. Some trans men get pregnant because it’s the only way they can have a kid. Other trans men will have to be put on suicide watch. It's not a first world problem. It has nothing to do with socially imposed gender roles.

Stop acting like you speak for all women. I'm sure many GC women are afraid to speak out. But the majority of women are not GC and you need to accept that. Reddit didn't silence women, they silenced GC, which includes GC guys. It's GC women who are afraid of men in women's bathrooms, not women.

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T17:24:39+00:00

You say you don't think learning disabilities should be prevented or cured. What if someone with ADHD who views ADHD as a positive thing wanted the medication to banned, would you similarly agree that it should be banned?

If that's how the majority felt than yeah.

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T04:19:36+00:00

In what ways do GC people make it impossible for you to access care?

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T03:43:07+00:00

I'm saying learning disabilities shouldn't be cured or prevented. I won't speak to you about your autism but I will speak about learning disabilities.

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T03:29:36+00:00

I am asking QT posters, not GC. Anyway, this is a spin-off of this thread.

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T03:05:55+00:00

Do you have a learning disability? No. You do not get to speak for people with learning disabilities or explain my disability to me.

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T02:54:17+00:00

If someone doesn't want a cure for ADHD, that's fine. But I've never heard anyone wanting to cure their learning disabilities.

Genderbender · 2020-10-28T02:01:51+00:00

My learning disability never caused me hardship. Society caused me a lot more hardship.

Yes, I have limitations. I struggled with math a lot in school. But we all have limitations.

Genderbender · 2020-10-27T20:15:32+00:00

It's not the facts, it's the implication that there is something wrong with learning disabilities. Have you ever heard people use the phrase "risk of red hair" or "risk of blue eyes" as if there's something wrong with those characteristics. On NYC's [child & adolescent health examination form (pdf)](www.schools.nyc.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/ch205-child-adolescent-health-examination-form-english), they use the phrase developmental or learning problem as if there is something wrong with learning differences. There are tons of reasons to prevent lead poisoning. Learning differences is NOT one of them.

Genderbender · 2020-10-26T15:36:53+00:00

I personally feel insulted when people say stuff like "lead poisoning causes learning disabilities". Don't get me wrong, lead poisioning should be prevented, but no one says things like "lead poisoning causes red hair". This is because people think there is nothing wrong with red hair. The same way nothing is wrong with learning disabilities. It's just another human characteristic.

Your experiences and posts on ASD forums is still not actually a representative of the majority of people with ASDs regardless of what books you read. Do you truly believe that the majority of autistic people read those books or post on those forums?

Where can I find opinions that are representative of the majority of autistic people?

Genderbender · 2020-10-25T18:35:21+00:00

I'm not condemning neurotypical people. I'm saying there is nothing wrong with being neuro diverse. Temple Grandin said "the world needs all kinds of minds".

You are entitled to your opinion. I do realize I can't advocate for everyone. For instance at the Republican National Convention, a few black men said Trump isn't racist. However, most black and indigenous people including my own friends say he's racist, so I go with the majority opinion. Same with autism. Many autistic people dislike Autism Speaks. I know of 2 autistic people that are involved in the organization, Carly Fleischmann and Kerry Magro, but most autistic people don't like the organization.

Why Autism Speaks Doesn't Speak For Me

Why I am Against Autism Speaks (and you should be, too)

Responding to Autism Speaks

"I, Too": My Autism Speaks Story

A Roundup of Posts Against Autism Speaks

So as a result when I was in college I called them out for having Autism Speaks U, I refused to participate in fundraisers for Autism Speaks, and when a person asked me if I'm involved in Autism Speaks U, I politely explained most autistic people don't like that organization. I understand there will always be exceptions.

I once met an autistic activist who says she uses her autism to advocate for her low functioning brother. I told her many autistic people don't like functioning labels and she said she disagrees and uses functioning labels. She also wore a puzzle piece kippah and is aware of the puzzle piece controversy. I talked to her about ASAN and she said she was kicked out of ASAN because she didn't oppose residential treatment centers (she was in an RTC herself and said it helped her). While in general I like ASAN, they shouldn't have kicked her out for having the wrong opinion. She told me I should get involved in disability activism.

So at the end of the day I do realize I won't be able to please everyone with my advocacy and that's OK. It's rare to have a 100% consensus on anything. So I go with what the majority from a group say. I read books like The Reason I jump, and Carly's voice, I read blogs by autistic people, watch videos and documentaries that feature autistic voices. Not all the blogs I read are written by "high functioning" people. Most of the people in the blogs can't speak and require support, but use AAC.

And because I have a disability myself, I have personal experience with ableism and am fighting against it like everybody else. But I understand our disabilities vary and thus our experiences with ableism vary. While I was unlawfully segregated in a special ed class. I was always spoken to like other kids my age. Many autistic people who are non-verbal reported being spoken to like infants before they had the chance to communicate with AAC. Even "high functioning" autistic people reported being treated as incompetent. Heck, many visibly disabled adults still get spoken to like little kids, or others speak to the able-bodied person with them, and not the disabled person. That's why I always repeat "presume competence" and this is one of the few things there is a 100% consensus on in our community.

Genderbender · 2020-10-25T00:02:10+00:00

There is nothing wrong with not being neurotypical. I don't just read r/autism, I read wrong planet, ASAN and blogs by autistic people including rhemashope, faith hope and love with autism and ido in autismland. I also have autistic friends who told me they don't want a cure. When I am not part of a group I listen to the majority of people in the group, and the majority of autistic people support neurodiversity. After all, the movement was started by autistic people. As someone with a learning difference, which is also a neurodiverse condition, I 100% agree with this sentiment. I hate when people imply learning differences or disabilities need to be cured or prevented. They don't.

Genderbender · 2020-10-24T22:28:19+00:00

Trans men who are transitioning aren’t women.

Genderbender · 2020-10-24T22:27:53+00:00

A learning difference is not a beast.

I read r/autism on Reddit and some autistic people are offended by the term symptoms. They prefer the term characteristics. I share this sentiment and I am offended when people imply learning differences need to be cured or that they are a “problem”. I know most autistic people support the neurodiversity movement.

Genderbender · 2020-10-24T19:59:17+00:00

The term disorder implies something is abnormal. My learning difference is not abnormal, and in my life I was disabled more due to discrimination than due to my learning difference.

Genderbender · 2020-10-24T19:47:00+00:00

Im simply saying having boundaries doesn't give you the right to be discriminatory. That said, the dating world IS discriminatory. You can refuse to date and sleep with someone for ANY reason, weather it's because they're trans, they're too fat, their race, they have a birthmark, etc. Its fine to refuse to date and sleep with people solely because they're trans, or simply say you're not attracted to trans people. It's not fine to imply trans men are female, or exclude them from general gay spaces like a gay discussion forum or a gay meetup. If that sub was discriminatory towards gay Jews I would feel the same way that they should stop being anti-Semitic. I am Ashkenazi Jewish.

Genderbender · 2020-10-23T06:34:25+00:00

So gay people (both cis and trans) do not get to determine their own boundaries?

Genderbender · 2020-10-23T06:28:59+00:00

I have a learning disability, and as a result the ableist school system put me in a segregated class till high school. I do not consider it a disorder. My OCD, ADHD and depression are definitely disorders which thankfully are controlled with medication.

Genderbender · 2020-10-23T04:17:12+00:00

Autism is not a disease, unlike cancer.

Genderbender · 2020-10-23T03:03:12+00:00

Trans people are also homosexual and have the right to determine boundaries in homosexual spaces.

Genderbender · 2020-10-22T18:37:10+00:00

So gay men don't have the right to access gay spaces? We should memorialize this comment.

Genderbender · 2020-10-22T17:47:37+00:00

Majority of feminine gay men have dysphoria for at least few years, on my knowledge.

Study?

Genderbender · 2020-10-22T04:46:11+00:00

Just because it's in the DSM, doesn't mean it's a mental illness. Autism is in the DSM, but many autistic people don't want a cure.
Many people have an innate gender identity. I am a cis woman. I prefer being a woman. If I was born a man or woke up the next day as a man I would transition. I would feel distressed if I had a penis and a beard. I guess some would consider it a mental illness but in that case the only reason why I don't have a mental illness is because I was born in the "right" body.
There are currently no other treatment options for severe dysphoria other than to than transition. That's why people take hormones and have surgeries, because of severe dysphoria that causes distress with sex characteristics. If you can find a treatment that makes people content with their sex, that would be amazing. Right now this is all we have.
Starving yourself can lead to death. HRT can have unpleasant side effects, but it's not an immediate risk of death.

Genderbender · 2020-10-22T04:41:42+00:00

They are not, same as masculine women are not gay men.

Trans men are not masculine women. They are men. I know a few women who look butch but they are clearly distinguishable from passing trans men. None of these women have beards, whereas trans men on T have beards. Also a trans man's skin and voice is that of a man. Though voice isn't necessarily an indicator of gender. Celia Cruz sounds like a man. The transman I briefly dated passed well.

You do realize, that you are doing and saying absolutely the same that our homophobic government was doing to "fix" us? Either accept that "very masculine women are men too and unlearn your genital preferences", or go in jail.

I have said many times in this thread and other threads that no one should be compelled to have sex with anyone for any reason, even if that reason is that they're trans.

Genderbender · 2020-10-22T04:10:08+00:00

Trans gay men are gay men and all gay men, cis or trans, have the right to access gay men's spaces. Full stop.

Genderbender · 2020-10-22T00:02:16+00:00

It depends on the place and the extent of the trans man's transition. Though no one is obligated to date or have sex with anyone for any reason.

Genderbender · 2020-10-21T20:58:37+00:00

Nobody would really fucking care about using the right pronouns for kindness/politeness (a few amount of people really like conflit, most people just mind their own damn business)

GC 99% of the time purposely misgender trans people.

Trans people and people attracted by trans people needs their own spaces, end of the discussion. If LGB took the time to create their own space, it's because it was necessary.

Gay men (cis or trans) are a part of LGB and have every right to participate in the sub. I do acknowledge some spaces are acceptable depending on the point of transition, but this is a broad gay discussion forum and trans men at any point in transition have the right to post there.

But if that makes you feel alive (?) keep trying to force acceptance wich is A) not going to work B) going to have repercussions on LGB people and C) put real T people at risk and create for them ennemies where they had at first allies.

By the same turn gay men can loose allies for being transphobic. I support gay men and fight against homophobia, except transphobic gay men (once again, refusing to date or sleep with anyone for any reason does not count as transphobia).

That's a very dangerous game that scares most of us because we're going to be in the middle of this war, and we can't walk out of homosexuality/bisexuality or our sex by "stop identifying".

No one is saying you can stop identifying. Your gender identity is your gender identity and you can’t control that.

Genderbender · 2020-10-21T20:46:06+00:00

r/askgaybros is a broad gay discussion sub, so of course trans gay men should be allowed. I do agree that some gay spaces are acceptable depending on the point of transition. For example, in this thread Sex party dysphoria NSFW, a man pre op and 2 months into transition was at a gay sex party where the men turned away from him. A user replied:

You were never meant to be there at that point in your transition.

If he were post op and passed more it would be fine for him to be there. But a broad gay discussion forum? Trans gay men at any point of transition can be there.

Genderbender · 2020-10-21T16:51:08+00:00

LGB people should be able to have their own boundaries and not have to include opposite sex people in their communities regardless of gender identity.

I disagree.

Genderbender · 2020-10-21T04:48:10+00:00

Gay trans men are gay men and have every right to participate in that sub. The thread was calling out transphobia, while acknowledging you can sleep with whoever you want and your attractions are not transphobic. If cis gay men have a problem with it, they can create a sub on saidit or start their own website like Ovarit where they can ban whoever they want. Reddit doesn't welcome transphobia.

Genderbender · 2020-10-20T23:41:50+00:00

Most GC people have never been trans men, so why not ask trans men themselves what can you do to support their health?

Genderbender · 2020-10-20T22:34:24+00:00

I also don't believe in the corona virus. If people want to wear masks outside or in a store, fine. But the police will break up large gatherings. Why am I be compelled to practice this religion?

Genderbender