Both: What if we reframed the issue as "AFAB rights", "AFAB spaces", etc?

submitted by luckystar from self.GCdebatesQT

So obviously the term "women only" annoys QT because their definition of "woman" is much broader than the GC one-- "trans women are women". However, they seem to use "AFAB" to mean the exact same thing GC mean when they say "women".

If GC started framing the discussion as the need for "AFAB spaces", "AFAB specific health issues", would it get anywhere? Most QT are okay with concepts like "black only spaces" or "indigenous only spaces" or what have you. I get that GC doesn't favor the term, but I think the fight over the semantics of the word "woman" is only so useful. AFAB is a useful term because they couldn't use the "you're alienating trans men/enbies" argument -- trans men are AFAB. By explicitly including transmen using terms they prefer (so not "female" or "women" or whatever) it becomes more clear that it really is about biological sex and not "transphobia".

Thoughts?

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[–]DistantGlimmer 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

It definitely wouldn't work with AGPs as they fetishize womanhood so they will just demand entrance to "AFAB spaces". A woman was banned from Twitter recently for telling a non-binary female person that "only females get cervical cancer" when feminists protested this a bunch of transmen started shrieking about how they are actually male not female and hearing that only females have cervixes invalidates them so I can't even really say it's just transwomen who are unreasonable here and It's hard to believe the transmen would have magically accepted "Only AFAB people get cervical cancer". Besides, AFAB is actually terminology that is actually accurate for some intersex people. I don't think we should take it from them just because some trans people cannot handle the reality of their biological sex.

[–]worried19 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

when feminists protested this a bunch of transmen started shrieking about how they are actually male not female

Good grief. How old were the people in question? I can't imagine adults acting like this. Even if these people transitioned as teenagers, they know full well that they were born female and raised as girls.

[–]questioningtw 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Honestly...I am deeply worried that it is becoming the norm to completely deny reality. Look at all these people that think 5 G causes cancer or that Covid is a hoax. There is nothing transphobic about acknowledging biological reality.

[–]worried19 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It can't last. This is an untenable position for the long term. I think we just happen to be in the middle of a bizarre moment in history. The pendulum has to swing back eventually. Hopefully not too far, though. I don't want the legitimate progress trans people have made to be erased.

[–]questioningtw 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I sure hope so. I think though what scares me the most though is climate change and how fast it is accelerating. It is like, instead of being obsessed with gender identity can we focus on actual existential crisises'? Because the pendulum will swing to the right hard if people see leftists as not caring at all about the enviroment, economy, actual human rights and justice.

[–]littlerbear 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I mentioned this on FB a few days ago. Lefties are standing around arguing about pronouns as the world burns, hollering about men getting cervical cancer as we get ready to sacrifice 15K kids and teachers to covid to shore up the economy, canceling people for talking about biological reality while in the US 5 million people are on the verge of losing their health insurance. So, yeah, the left has really lost the plot.

[–]questioningtw 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was reading this book about Leni Reifensthal who was Hitler's filmmaker basically. Pre War Germany was actually extremely liberal, but the liberalism was starting to morph into hedonism and people started seeing the left as amoral and not caring about workers. This along, with the Wiemar Republics very weak laws that could have prevented extremism is what lead to Nazi Germany. Now that is an extreme simplification of a complicated event, but it is scary seeing this happen in real time. Oh and we have climate change on top of everything.

[–]tamingthemindradfem (GC) 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said. Meghan Murphy recently did an interview with Elias Williams and they touched on this.

[–]DistantGlimmer 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's unbelievable. I've been reading Twitter more since all the shit on Reddit went down but the TRAs there are a special bunch. They say that no one denies biological sex but then call people Nazis and shit if they call a female person female and we can't even correct or argue with them about it or we get banned despite the fact that calling someone female is not misgendering. sigh.

It does feel like bratty kids have just been given control of these internet platforms.

[–]questioningtw 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is definitely a hard core bunch that are trying to act like sex is a complete social construct and irrelevent and you don't even need to transition to be non binary are trans and they are very loud. In fact they actually harass trans people like Buck Angel and Natalie Wynn for having the sheer audacity to say errrrrrrr yeah I was a woman/man before I transitioned. I like they think harassing people is perfectly acceptable if they don't like what you say.

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Once they succeed in driving us off the circular firing squad will definitely be out in full force and I must say I will be reaching for the popcorn with the likes of Contrappoints although Buck Angel seems like a genuinely good person so it's sad when people like that who are just minding their own business get targetted.

[–]questioningtw 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is always the loudest that have to ruin it for everyone. over on Gender cyn they love to talk about what a horrible person Buck Angel is...but he seems like a good guy to me.

[–]luckystar[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It would be interesting if nothing else to see if the goalposts were moved to the point that trans women were calling themselves AFAB lol. "This IS a female birth certificate. Sure it says 'male' on it, but I am a woman, and therefore this birth certificate is that of a female."

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And let's not forget that now they can change their sex on birth certificates anyway.

[–]littlerbear 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah. I think I'm going to post 'only women get cervical cancer' on all my twitter posts at this point.

when feminists protested this a bunch of transmen started shrieking about how they are actually male not female and hearing that only females have cervixes invalidates them

These freakin' people. I'm seriously at the point where I can't care about people's genderfeelz any more. When it comes to health, especially life-threatening conditions like cervical cancer, it's time to put the gender BS aside and just deal with reality.

[–]DistantGlimmer 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Have to agree. I can accept that trans people are marginalized but that is no excuse for them to bully and silence women. I'm also just fed up with it.

[–]littlerbear 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They would be less marginalized if they stopped bullying women. And, if the lib fems would stop catering to them every second of the day. An FB friend of mine felt obligated to tell me how glad she is that a trans woman at her job has 'found her true self'. This is in response to my statement that only women get cervical cancer. WTF? It's like lib fems have Stockholm syndrome and defend trans people when they're not even the subject of the conversation.

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, when I was reading the responses to that "only females get cervical cancer" on Twitter there were a lot of libfems and woke men falling all over themselves to validate the poor trans people and calling GC people hateful for even suggesting that only females would get a disease which affects female anatomy. They know better It's all just such tiresome virtue signaling.

Latest thing tonight is there's a sex offender in Alberta that has a history of voyeurism and perving in female bathrooms so the cops issued a warning about him being released but they can't even say that this obvious trans male is male because our laws are so fucked up and misogynistic and of course no actual woman can make a fuss or tell this man to get the fuck out of a female bathroom because he is "legally female" in Canada. People need to stop enabling this shit.

[–]littlerbear 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I saw this. I couldn't read it because it was too infuriating.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

🤢

It makes me so crazy that legal sex change is giving protection to people like that.

[–]questioningtw 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So Richard Spencer ok. a woman telling another woman that only females get cervical cancer gets a bad. I wish more trans people would actually speak out about this kind of behavior, it is not acceptable.

[–]MatH0 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

'AFAB' means Assigned Female at Birth. I have some troubles with that definition, because your sex is observed and only intersex people can have an assigned sex. For me, 'female' doesn't exclude anyone. Because the definition of female it's just the sex that produces ova. Trans men, females NB and women have female biology. They still need female-specific healthcare.

[–]luckystar[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

While this is true, we have trans men and NB telling us repeatedly they don't like being called "female" or "women". If we're really going to be inclusive of them then using terms like "female" alone won't work (and it makes the TERF claim a bit closer to being accurate because then we ARE effectively making trans men feel excluded). What about "females and anyone AFAB"?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Transmen are included by radfem support for abortion access, birth control, affordable healthcare, condemnation of rape culture and rape apologists, and everything else aside from radfems pretending sex isn t real.

If transmen choose to remove themselves from feminism because it acknowledges where female oppression actually comes from, it’s not radfems being exclusive. It’s them being so distanced from reality that they cannot accept any support that uses the words woman or female. They exclude themselves.

Instead of bending over backwards with newspeak we need to stick to our guns and stop catering to the gender special crowd.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Preach. Before the sub went down, we had several threads about how trans natal females didn't feel included in our feminism because we don't cater to their identity. Nobody is forcing them to join us, if they don't like that we consider them women, they are free to look elsewhere: I am sure the inclusive feminism trans natal males created will be a welcoming space for them and their biological needs, especially given that it's not exactly an uncommon sentiment that trans natal females feel talked over by trans natal males. 🙄 I can't wait to see a trans natal female trying to talk about periods, pregnancy and abortion and have a trans natal male educating "him" on those topics.

My personal favorite thread on the inclusion of trans natal females in radical feminism, however, was by a poster who made a long speech about the ways in which we could be more inclusive of trans natal females. Except in every comment they wrote there was a TMAM dogma thrown in. Why the fuck would women who hate being women to the point that they call themselves men want to be included in a movement about women is beyond me.

Also, I just refuse to play semantic games to cater to gender specials at this point. A debate topic that I have seen often is that it's wrong to stop using preferred pronouns and labels for the ones who are bad: I completely agree, the concept is idiotic no matter what, so I refuse to pander to it for anyone. Why should we make an exception for trans natal females and prove that there are times in which language can be twisted? Calling them men is less dangerous than calling men women, but the idea behind both is the same, and accepting one automatically validates the other.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Oh man I think I remember that massive diatribe about including transmen by using the magic slogans every third sentence. She was always banging on about stupid stuff. Reminded me of cirlingmyownvoid or the special one who seriously went by xer. Maybe the same person?

It’s made clearer and clearer by tra that they don’t want acceptance, they want unquestioning acquiescence and obedience. Doesn’t matter if it hurts all women, these coddled babies have very important whims and zero ability to handle anything that isn’t immediate satisfaction.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

If it was the same person, then it was an alt-account. The one I am talking about was something like Charmandy or similar stuff. But frankly I do believe it was a genuine woman who just drowned in the kool-aid.

Mask/Void, for all the crap they say, never really called themselves a biological female (only female in the legal sense) and they didn't seem to give an actual shit about trans natal females anyway, I don't think they would have wasted time trying to teach us how to include them.

The one with the weird pronouns (I know who you are talking about, but I don't remember their username) would have never stooped so low and called themselves a boring "cis" woman.

As for the rest, yes! Apparently, delayed gratification, character growth and self-acceptance have been replaced by "I want it all, I want it now and you are going to give it to me".

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Thaaats the one! Charmondy! ~you can include transmen in radical feminism by not being a big bad terf and accepting gender as your lord and saviour :)~

Honestly it seems like every tra poster from the subreddit was an obvious troll. Like airlilyariel who was definitely getting donated ovaries implanted next year to have a baby.

Masks never claimed to be female but spent hours screeching that he’s not male and never was.

The same posters would ask twenty stupid, bad faith questions in a row like “why isn’t the penis female?” Then say everyone there was obsessed with hating transwomen and never even talk about gender when they got an answer. It’s weird looking back and realising that even the supposedly good faith qt posters were just..brimming with shit.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Like airlilyariel who was definitely getting donated ovaries implanted next year to have a baby.

Wait, what? How the fuck did I miss that? I have seen people claiming that trans natal males getting pregnant was something that was going to happen 5 years ahead tops, but I have never seen someone being so direct about it. I don't even recognize that username to be honest.

Masks never claimed to be female but spent hours screeching that he’s not male and never was.

I missed that, too, and I have spent an inordinate amount of time butting heads with them. They never said they weren't male to me, just that they hated males and didn't want to be associated with them in any way (which made them women). They also had very peculiar views on friendship (friends exist to lie to you to make you feel better) and on the fact that if you don't want to fuck trans people and they ask you directly why, you should lie or shut about it but never tell them the truth.

There were posters who weren't textbook TRAs: I still disagreed with them, but some of them didn't seem like they were from an alternative reality. Others... spoke like aliens.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Oh man it was a real treat. Ariel claimed he was biologically female, and had ovaries. Then went to he will be receiving a uterus and ovaries and be birthing happy little babies by 2022. They were like 19 and about as emotionally developed as a newborn. Absolutely insisted that hormones make SRY genes obsolete and cause males to have female genetics and everything. Absolutely amazing to read. Needs popcorn.

Masks insisted to me every time I spoke to him that he’s not male or a man because men and males are all evil monsters and he’s just the most delicate poor widdle lady being attacked by every man outside AND the evil cis women who totally wanted him murdered. Self pity stacked twelve feet high and nothing else was masks.

Transmaiden was the worst imo. Mods let them get away with a full year of admittedly shitposting and detailing for fun. It took multiple rape apologist posts for any trolls to be ousted.

I probably spoke to some sane tra posters but damned if I can remember them for all the absolute nutters.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Mask did use to say that they were a little flower so they must have been a woman in comparison to men, but it always seemed to me like they were saying it more as a wishful thinking kind of thing than because they actually believed it. Then again, they believed in other insane stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Transmaiden is the only poster I have ever blocked. Their "smart" rebuttals (such as "OK, boomer!") were irritating enough, but in one thread they posted messages like "Ah ah, I am seriously suicidal now!!!" and that was it for me.

I really have no clue about the first one you are talking about. Damn, I missed some quality tantrums!!!!

[–]littlerbear 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wasn't LilyAriel or whoever the one who said that he'd had part of his liver removed to make room for female reproductive organs?

Transmaiden was really a piece of work.

[–]littlerbear 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

brimming with shit.

Yes, Lord. The....peculiar manners of thinking are really quite challenging at times. Like in terms of keeping my temper and not going full 'what the fuck is wrong with you? How do you believe this bullshit?"

[–]DistantGlimmer 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

trans natal females anyway

I actually remember Masks saying once they liked transmen. I noted it to myself because they clearly hate women, men, other transwomen, themselves, seriously I don't think I've ever seen someone so full of hate for the vast majority of humanity so I was like "well that's one small group they don't hate at least".

NeverBeenStardust is the other one's name. Had many discussions with them where they'd come right to the edge of actually getting some GC point and then dance back from it. So annoying. I don't know if it was bad faith or simply someone young and not willing to really open their mind.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The only time I saw Mask talking about trans natal females was when someone asked them to rank the genders according to how they felt safe in their presence.

Trans natal females ranked higher than "cis" men, so the poster they were debating with wondered why, given that, I think, the entire argument came from the usual denial about sex and socialization being in any way important. So basically, trans men and men are absolutely the same level of man, but for some reasons they felt safer with trans men. I wonder why... 🙄

Yes, Stardust is exactly the one I was thinking of. I can't say I interacted with them that much, though.

[–]DistantGlimmer 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If I remember correctly it came up with me because they were going on with their usual over-the-top routine about how all masculinity is Satanic so I asked them if they hated people who literally opt-in to masculine gender roles (transmen) and they were like "no, I like transmen" which doesn't seem very consistent but I guess it is good there's one group they don't loathe.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Classic Mask!!!

It is indeed nice that at least there was someone they didn't loathe. Even though I think that one of them not being a doormat in Mask's presence would have probably changed their mind.

[–]littlerbear 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

would have never stooped so low and called themselves a boring "cis" woman.

I know who you're talking about. I always had weird interactions with this person. Kind of like "I never said I'm not female, I'm just not a woman. I'm a female man." I find this crap exhausting. A female man. Jesus wept.

[–]littlerbear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The whole thing about how trans men should be housed with men in prisons because...gender was something else, but not in a good way. You're right about how many trans people and their allies want capitulation, not acceptance.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh lawd the insistence that being misgendered is basically a war crime and everyone else in prison will respect their gender identity was something else.

[–]littlerbear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's almost like they've never met men. Men treat men like crap too. It's not like jail is some brotherhood of rebels. A lot of these people must be very young and sheltered.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not surprised. From what I’ve seen it is mostly an argument from teenagers. They’ve got no idea what the implications of their stance are.

[–]littlerbear 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That crazy nonsense! Right. Trans men aren't included in feminism because we don't acknowledge trans men as men and are therefore oppressed, so feminism should re-order itself to accommodate trans men's needs to be recognized as men, yet included in feminism.

[–]littlerbear 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Instead of bending over backwards with newspeak we need to stick to our guns and stop catering to the gender special crowd.

ALL OF THIS.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

First of all, AFAB is a term that is used in intersex communities: using it to describe non intersex women would be appropriation.

Secondly, whatever word you choose, it's not going to work anyway. Only in the past couple of days I have seen TRAs saying that terms like male and female are transphobic, not to mention that lots of trans people use biological terms like female, periods and vaginas to describe themselves and their bodies on a regular basis.

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to find a compromise, but they don't care how we call ourselves, they want to be included in that group no matter what.

[–]luckystar[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am really interested to hear what intersex people think about this whole AMAB/AFAB business. I didn't even know it came from them until I started reading GC stuff.

Yeah, I'm wondering if I want a compromise that doesn't exist...

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The compromise you are advocating for is not impossible... in theory.

The problem is that in order to have it, both sides would have to be willing to use it. The issue is that TRAs would refuse: anything less than complete capitulation is not acceptable.

As for us... there was a time in which it was probably possible from our point of view to accept something like you are describing. The problem is that we did accept it, and we got taken advantage of to the point that now we have men saying that they have periods because they get farty, moody and crave chocolate once in a while.

The past few years just erased any kind of fucks I was willing to give, and I know I am talking on behalf of many posters here. If we were in a world in which it was recognized that using feminine pronouns and labels for certain men was just a question of politeness, that they didn't actually believe they were women, and that they weren't trying to change legislation and us through that, then it would be a different question. But you know how things are now. There are people who genuinely believe that words make reality, and if we play along with that will just get worse.

[–]littlerbear 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm not making concessions in my language to take care of some dude's genderfeels. Women are not 'assigned' at birth; sex is observed, gender is imposed. I have no interest in lying to myself and other people about the reality of sex and how it's determined to make some trans people happy. If they can't deal with reality, that's their issue. Maybe they should learn how not to harass, dox, assault, mantrum, etc when women talk about our bodies and our lives in accurate terms. As for trans men, people who begin life as female zygotes become female fetuses, those female fetuses become female children, who eventually grow into women. Trans men are adult human females since sex doesn't change. Again, maybe the people who have the issue with the way language has been used for millennia are the ones who need to male the adjustment.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Love that op comes up with the idea of us changing and redefining language for men’s comfort and absolutely nothing about the degenerate, emotionally stunted, screaming man children having to finally tolerate hearing ‘no’.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I respect OP for trying to find a compromise, but in light of recent events, it's been made pretty clear that one side is not interested in any type of middle ground. Speaking of the vocal activists. The ones who are moderate are drowned out and attacked themselves.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I appreciate the effort they’re making but I’m so damn tired of women being asked to change something or do something or speak differently every single time. No other group is asked to ~please please constantly moderate yourself according to these new nonsensical rules or we will be FORCED to say you have zero human decency~

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True. I've been "peaked" myself, I guess. I'm still moderate, but I acknowledge the loudest voices on the other side have no interest in moderation. We can grovel, we can beg, we can be kind, but unless we submit, we're considered the enemy. It's highly disappointing that the culture has come to this.

[–]luckystar[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am talking about including trans men who are biological females... this has nothing to do with bioolgical males' comfort

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And I pointed out all the ways radical feminism does support transmen. Giving in and accepting newspeak bullshit like afab is asking us to give up the language needed to discuss sex based oppression and shits all over intersex people just to cater to someone’s special internal sense of themself. It’s ridiculous. How much more do transmen want from us whilst they act like feminists do nothing.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

AFAB seem like such a misnomer because people aren’t assigned a sex (unless they are some small percentage of intersex people).

The only real advantage I could see is if a female trans person was so dysphoric or offended by the term woman or female that they wouldn’t get necessary medical care or screenings unless it was labeled some other way. I hope most trans people aren’t that reckless with their health, but I’m sure some are.

I’m not sure if it would work for spaces either because many male trans people would feel like it was invalidating and demand access. I feel like it would just escalate similar to how it moved from transwomen being women to transwomen being female (at least according to some).

[–]Spikygrasspod 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It would not work because from what I can tell, the point of the modern trans rights project is for trans women and women to be indistinguishable in law, speech, and society. Either people would start saying they were female at birth, or they'd start saying the phrase, and the associated demands, are transphobic. Women fought for women's rights using the word women. We're not going to make all those arguments again with new words just for someone to change the goalposts again.

[–]DogeWalker 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

it becomes more clear that it really is about biological sex and not "transphobia"

GC here. I wish something like this would work... but this logic simply won't compute with extreme TRA types. To them, being clear about biological sex is "transphobia."

[–]luckystar[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Maybe i'm just being too optimistic

[–]DogeWalker 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't be that hard on yourself... we have to keep coming up with new ideas, so optimism is required! (btw, I also did not realize the difference between AFAB and OFAB and how it makes a difference to the intersex community, until recently)

Also, despite the details about this one idea, I think there is something very important at its center... it seems obvious that there are two human sexes, but since sex is the basis for the large-scale oppression of women, we can't forget the key importance of that, and we can't concede that ground.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women arent afab. Why be dishonest about the issue and start COINing to soothe some male feelings?

OP, when do you believe sex gets assigned? Which authority assigned the babies? What are their assignments based on?

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It just wouldn't work, unfortunately. What these activists object to is the idea of having any distinction or separation at all, not the terminology.

[–]theblackfleet 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then men will claim they're AFAB. They're men who just want to colonize and you can change words and do whatever, but they'll still want in.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm going with a "hard no" on AFAB.

I'm also going to go a step beyond Meghan Murphy's "Sex isn't assigned, it's observed" and say "Sex isn't observed, it's encoded."

Intersex persons being the very rare exceptions, we are literally conceived female or male. Sex organs in an embryo begin to differentiate about eight weeks after conception, and those will grow into the "visible bits" that an ultrasound or a healthcare practitioner will observe to determine our sex. But we are literally encoded "female" and "male" at conception, and that never changes.

If we walk back that basic biological reality for someone's (anyone's) psychological comfort, we begin to gut science and replace it with illusion (or delusion). None of us can afford to do that.

[–]levoyageur718293 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That was the very first thing I said with this account back on the other site. My solution was "15ers" and "19ers" for men and women respectively. I never got a good consensus from QT on what "women" (as QT defines them) need as a group compared to what "19ers" (people who did or would have received the federal vote in the USA via the 19th amendment) obviously need.

[–]valleyoftherogue 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. No incorporating trans nonsense lingo.