GC: If female is the default sex and the default phenotype, and males start out as females as an embryo, then does that mean there is only 1 sex, all males are trans men (females who became males), and sex can actually change?

submitted by AllInOne from self.GCdebatesQT

I have been thinking about something and came up with questions. I thought it's best to ask GCs here. On google I find a lot of people saying things like "everyone starts out as female since female is the default sex and the default developed attribute. In the beginning both sexes are phenotypically females as embryos, because the female characteristics develop first. In makes this means that in early development the X chromosome is "dominant", but at a certain point the specific information carried in the Y chromosome activates, leading to male characteristics"

Take a look at this user's comments on Quora; https://www.quora.com/Why-is-female-the-Default-sex-of-humans/answer/Jamie-Kincaid-5

"I still think its true that humans develop as female initially in the womb, regardless of what anyone says. Males and female are more anatomically similar than most people like to think. Take it from me, I’m a transgender man and I’ve studied this stuff for years. I can’t think of any other reason I was born trans unless my gender was converted from female to male.. Why would I “choose” to be transgender? I can tell you now it is not a choice, and if it was, I would still be female. Anyhow, I don’t understand how people can say humans don’t start off as female, for me there is just too much evidence and hints. The testicles and ovaries are made from the same group of cells and tissue, they share the same properties, they are just developed differently."

And this comment; https://www.quora.com/Why-is-female-the-Default-sex-of-humans/answer/Jeff-Collins-6/comment/39448319

This other user on Quora too says all humans are females and there are no males; https://www.quora.com/Scientifically-are-humans-half-male-and-half-female/answer/Shuka-Brahma

"Actually, humans are all females, where the presence of the SRY gene initiates male development/differentiation, so that fetal gonads that normally turn into female ovaries turn into male testes instead. Furthermore, once testes are developed they must produce testosterone for male development to continue, otherwise female development continues.Due to this common origin, a number of features are homologous. = http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/14/24/3075.full"

They are saying male don't exist and everyone is actually female. Also anytime I search "is female the default sex" on google, here are the things I find;

"It may come as a surprise to some of our male readers, but you all actually started out as females - physically and phenotypically speaking.", link; https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-we-were-once-all-female

This video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Kdoja3hlk&feature=emb_title

"All humans begin life in the womb as females. If no Y chromosome is present in the foetus, then the embryo will continue to develop as and be born as a female. If there is a Y chromosome present in the embryo, the male sex hormone testosterone restricts the full development of breasts to just nipples, the labia fuse to become the scrotum and clitoris develops fully to become a penis.", link; https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-7531,00.html

Now here are my questions;

Q1) If all humans are female by default and there is no male, and males are actually females, then does that mean there is only 1 sex, not 2 sexes?

Q2) If female is the default sex of all humans and if female is the default phenotype of all humans and all males actually start out as females as embryos, then does that mean males are females that became males later when the SRY gene got activated ... so all males are trans men because they were once females in utero that became males after development and sex can change?

Why I'm asking these questions from GC is because the point of GC is 1) sex can not change, 2) there are 2 sexes. But a lot of people say "female is the default sex and the default phenotype and males start our as females as embryos", which completely contradicts those 2 points of GC, because 1) if males were once females in utero then that means all males are trans men (females who became males), 2) sex can change and 3) if all humans start out as female and if all humans are female then there is only 1 sex instead of 2 sexes

If someone here has more knowledge in science, can you tell me where these "female is the default sex and the default phenotype and males start out as females as embryos" arguments are wrong?

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Male embryos don't start out as females. The fact that female and male embryos are similar doesn't mean that male ones are actually female.

Embryos are clusters of cells in all mammals, that doesn't mean that we start as a standard creature and then develop into a different species. We already are that species the second the egg and the sperm fuse, same goes for male and female.

This idea that there is a standard sex and the other is a mutation of it needs to go, in both ways.

[–]Spikygrasspod 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No. Sperm contain the X or Y chromosome that determines a zygote's genetic sex, so, DSDs aside, there's no early stage at which a male foetus is "truly" female. There's only a stage at which genitals haven't developed yet. And a stage at which they begin to develop along different lines due to the presence or absence of androgens. Males are not actually females. They do not start as females. They start without their distinctive male characteristics, because they haven't developed them yet. But zygotes also start without eyes. Make of that what you will.

To say we're female by default is a figure of speech, or a way of conceptualising foetal development. That's all. It's not literally true.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Exactly. We could imagine fetal development and the divergence of female/male characteristics as a timeline. It isn't that male characteristics emerge from a female baseline. Rather, the SRY gene triggers male-specific embryonic changes, and the absence of SRY allows for the differential development of female-specific embryonic changes. Before that branching, though, the embryos are still female and male in potentia because of the chromosomes they carry.

[–]Spikygrasspod 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nicely explained. I have a question. It seems gonads produce hormones and hormones cause the other sex traits to develop. Are gonads instructed directly by the chromosomes to develop, as it were?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is above my pay grade (any biologists in the house?), but I think the genetic signals precede the initial sex hormone signals -- when the two basic pelvic ductal tissue types begin to differentiate, the Y-chromosome's SRY gene produces Testis Determining Factor (a protein) to begin driving the development of the testes. Besides TDF, there may be more "protein switches" for this process (unknown at this time).

Deep dive here: https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php/Testis_Development

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wouldn’t all male embryos already have male DNA? Even if the embryo started phenotypically and physically female, wouldn’t having male DNA make it a male embryo? Maybe someone here is a biologist...

[–]DogeWalker 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Are children born with DNA? Or do we somehow lack genetic material in every cell until puberty?

It will help everyone to answer your questions if you can provide a response to that.

[–]AllInOne[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Of course they are born with DNA, the DNA doesn't just magically appear once someone turns 10 or 11 year old.

(Btw, hello again friend, I remember you from the GC saidit, also I think your name is familiar because I have seen it on the GC subreddits that unfortunately got banned. It's good to see familiar people)

[–]DogeWalker 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn't use this name on reddit, so it must be a coincidence. I don't recognize your handle from r/GCdebatesQT, did you ever participate there?

[–]AllInOne[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, I did participate in GCdebatesQT subs back when it wasn't banned, I think your name is very familiar which made me question if I saw you in the GC subreddits before. My handle is not the same as the name I had on reddit, mine was muffin_mysterious

Sorry for the delay in response, I went out and had to write my essays so I didn't come back to saidit for a few hours

[–]SnowAssMan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No. Scientists have made it confusing. It's not that 'female' is the default, necessarily. Scientists call organisms that reproduce asexually 'female' too. Often these organisms will be practically indistinguishable form females that require males to fertile their ova. The only difference is asexual organisms don't need male organisms to fertilise their eggs. Asexual, or "asexual "female"" is the "default" (because we all evolved from asexual organisms. A remnant from this ancestry is nipples in men).

Sex is defined based on reproductive function. The female of the species provides one reproductive function & the male the other. That's two sexes in humans.

[–]GaiusHelenMohiam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Those are called female because they are clonal lineages descended from females of sexual species. Asexual protists are not called female.

[–]levoyageur718293 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Q1) No, because we clearly need two somethings in order to get together and have a baby, and it seems reasonable to call those sexes. Q2) Even if microbiologists are working out some kind of chicanery about how embryos develop in the first hours or weeks after conception, it doesn't change the facts on the ground in the visible world. All males are males because of their visible sexual characteristics, laid down in stone at the time of their birth or perhaps some time before. If it turns out that all human beings spend a brief period of time in the embryonic stage as ambiguously sexed, then that's fascinating evidence about the march of medical science and biology - but surely any QT type will tell you (as Ana Mardoll tells us) that the key ingredient to being trans is that your gender identity is different from your sex. In short, "trans man" means "person of the 'male gender identity' who was born with female genitalia." If there's no transition, there's no trans.

[–]AllInOne[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Transition means change, what I meant by "trans man" in "if it were true that female is the default phenotype or the default sex then all males would be trans men" was that if it were true that all males started out as females during their embryonic development, then that means sex changed, females became males, and there was a transition from female to male in utero -- a change of sex from female to male for all males -- so all males would be trans men as in there was a literal change of sex happening in there for them. If sex can not change, then there is no such a thing as a "trans man" or a "trans woman", because one can not change from female to male or from male to female, but if males started out as females in utero, then that means all males transitioned/changed sex from female to male in utero and all males would be trans men

[–]levoyageur718293 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What that would mean, therefore, is that an ordinary man - a man with a penis, testicles, Adam's apple, healthy sperm, and multiple children he got from having sex with women - was just as much a "trans man" as Buck Angel. What's the point of counting things that way?

This isn't an argument you can solve with a dictionary or with these kinds of thought experiments.

[–]AllInOne[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The word trans comes from transition, which means change, what the word "trans man" means is "woman changed to man" or "female changed to male". Did Buck Angel change sex? Did Buck Angel go from female to male by taking hormones, etc? I would say no, so she can not be a "trans man". She's a female who thinks she's a man. But if all males started out as females in utero, that means all males changed sex from female to male during development, which would mean all males are "trans men". That would mean sex can change during development, but not after birth, so no matter what Buck Angel does, she can not go from female to male since that change can only happen before birth. All of these things depends on the statemtnt that "males start out as females, female is the default phenotype or sex", if that statement is wrong then everything shatters and sex can not change before birth either so males are not females that transitioned to male in utero, they would just be males from the beginning

[–]levoyageur718293 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then what do you want to call natal female people who call themselves "trans men?" I legit don't understand what you're getting at.

[–]AllInOne[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Natal female people who call themselves "trans men" are not "trans men", they are just deluded females who believe they are men, so they should be called female, just what they are. The point of GC is that there is no such thing as a "trans man" or a "trans woman" or a "trans" anything as sex can not change (sex can not change after birth at the very least if we go with the statement that males started out as females in utero)