GC: Can you explain why a neopenis/phalloplasty is not a penis? If a man is something with a penis, then if a man removes all of his genitals in surgery, why will he still remain a man after surgery?

DistantGlimmer · 2020-07-18T04:13:22+00:00

, can you explain why a neopenis/phalloplasty is not a penis? P

Counter-question can you explain what a penis does? What it's function is biologically? I believe that will answer your question why a neophallus is not a penis.

so that the trans man can feel things like how a non-trans man feels things through his penis.

Can they use their neo-penis to ejaculate sperm? [Disclaimer: I don't reallly care if transmen want to pretend they have a penis and call it a penis and it makes them feel good to have it but definitionally it is not a penis.]

A man is not "something with a penis" [fucking ewww at that dehumanizing definition, not sure where you got it] Men are adult human males usually with XY chromosomes and who have usually at least at one time in our lives had the ability to produce sperm. Obviously removing genitals does not make a man not a man or a woman not a woman. I really don't know anyone who believes different. Even trans people will usually talk about their social transition and not just that they're a woman because they got their penis and testicles removed.

worried19 · 2020-07-18T04:02:15+00:00

The way I see it, sex is biological. Doctors creating a penis-like appendage on a female person is possible, but it's not actually a penis. A penis is an organic male body part.

I really don't wade into discussions about sex reassignment surgery because it makes me uncomfortable to think about what it entails, but I have no problem with what people call their genitals, natal or otherwise, as long as they respect others' sexual orientation and don't try to force their language on the rest of society.

SnowAssMan · 2020-07-18T10:57:38+00:00

Is a lego piano a piano, or is it lego made to resemble a piano? Say you could make it play music, is it lego shaped like a piano that plays music, or is it literally a piano? The latter would require two jumps in logic. You started out with 'lego' & 'resemblance', then you completely got rid of both of these, now the lego no longer exists & neither does any concept of resemblance. Then, in the second jump you materialised a piano where there is none. The lego didn't disappear & the piano didn't appear. Those two things never happened.

If you're wearing camouflage, are you the jungle? Same logic applies to the restructuring of genitalia.

'Phallus' is the umbrella term for clitoris & penis, so just use that to describe trans-men's genitals, no one else is (I'm not talking about post-surgery genitals here).

Who said a man is "something with a penis"? Gonads & gametes are the point of sex differentiation, everything else is secondary. A man sans genitals is a man sans genitals. You're still a biped after losing a leg. You're just a biped who has lost their leg.

sensusquaeram · 2020-07-18T06:27:16+00:00

Not a penis. Forearm skin/leg skin have different levels of tactile innervation than penile skin. On the Hopkins site they talk about the sensation of nerve tissue regenerating and signaling -- that's called paresthesia, and it usually happens for the opposite reason (nerve endings dying or nerves unmyelinating). So -- major invasive surgery, but not to construct an actual histological penis or vagina -- they're best skillful approximations.

uwubunny · 2020-07-18T17:20:38+00:00

It isn't a penis because it doesn't satisfy the basic notion of what a penis is: a male organ, which like all organs developed, well, organically, which has the function of penetrating and inseminating the female with sperm. A neophallus is a surgically constructed fake penis attached to a human female who wants to resemble a human male. A neophallus is a surgical construction which is created to look like the penis. If you define a neophallus as a penis, then it has no sensible definition any more, since there's no answer to what it emulates, just as if you define a transman as a man, then transman has no sensible definition any more, because there's no answer to what a transman is trying to emulate.

Can you explain why a prosthetic leg is not a leg?

If a man is something with a penis, then if a man removes all of his genitals in surgery, why will he still remain a man after surgery?

If a car is something that can drive, then if my car breaks down, why is it still a car?

weirdthorn · 2020-07-18T07:30:23+00:00

If I lose an arm do I become less human?

Phalloplasty, which is the construction of a penis, was originally created for men that weren't even "trans", why weren't their neopenises as real as any other man's penis?

No, they are still reconstructions, but they at least have the right hook-ups for a better result than cross-sex-neoconstruction. For instance you can do an uterus-transplant with women, but not with men (transplant rejection issues because of wrong sex aside), because women have the underlying structures for it.

FTM at least have the benefit that they get to keep their clit/erogenous tissues unlike MTF where most of it is discarded with creation of a neo-vagina (just a bit of glans and the prostate remain).

DogeWalker · 2020-07-18T15:49:21+00:00

Hypothetically, let's say I lost an eyeball in a tragic basketweaving accident.

Doctors offer to create a replacement eyeball for me, using soft tissue from my forearm.

My replacement eyeball is literally an eyeball. Do you agree, u/GarageCar ?

JollyPurple · 2020-07-20T16:52:36+00:00

And if a man is something with a penis, then imagine that a man removes all of his genitals in surgery, why will he still remain a man after surgery?

Our whole bodies are male or female. There isn't a default human body with just male or female sex organs thrown into them. That's why if a man removes his sex organs he's still male. It's the reason why medical research on male people only doesn't work for female humans.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/24/why-does-medicine-treat-women-like-men?CMP=share_btn_tw

theblackfleet · 2020-07-18T20:15:37+00:00

My questions are, can you explain why a neopenis/phalloplasty is not a penis? Phalloplasty, which is the construction of a penis, was originally created for men that weren't even "trans", why weren't their neopenises as real as any other man's penis?

Only males are born with penises, whether they are damaged or function or not. Females aren't born with penises (although it may 'appear' like one in some intersex DSD's.

Penises FUNCTION as part of a male system. Yes, some males penises are injured or don't function but the capacity to function properly is there.

Females who get phalloplasty do NOT get penises. They get a bunch of skin taken from other parts of the body to form a phallus shaped piece of skin that DOES NOT FUNCTION. IT is NOT a penis. It's just a bunch of phallus shaped skin. It doesn't have the proper urethra, it doesn't have the erectile tissue or blood vessels that are needed. It doesn't deliver sperm. It is not attached to testicles so there is no cum, no pre cum, no nothing.

The definition of man is adult human male. Females are not males. It really isn't complicated.

littlerbear · 2020-07-19T15:43:45+00:00

Men have penises because of their genetic composition. The penis is connected to sperm-producing testicles and acts as a conduit between the testicles and a woman's uterus. A phalloplasty is not connected to sperm-producing testicles, so it can't perform the task that a penis evolved to form. Women who get phalloplasties do not have the genetic blue-print to from a natural penis; they have the genetic blueprint to form a vagina, uterus, etc. They can't impregnate anyone with their pseudopenis. A phalloplasty doesn't function like a real penis either - men don't have man-made semi-rigid rods on either side of their penises.

divingrightintowork · 2020-07-18T19:41:06+00:00

If a man's dick rotted off or whatever and he got whatever FTMs get - he'd have exactly the same thing an FTM had and whatever it is called - but it isn't a penis/dick, any more than whatever an FTM gets. If I loose my arm and get a prosthetic arm it's just that, a prosthetic arm, not a human arm. And if you broke it down into its pieces, none of it's pieces would have any resemblance to the pieces of a human arm... because it's not.

Lapis_Lazuli · 2020-07-20T18:47:39+00:00

Wasn't this same question posted on the old debate sub?

A man is an adult human male. Most men have penises; a few rare exceptions do not.

Neophalluses are not penises for the same reason that glass eyes aren't eyes.

Seahorse · 2020-07-22T02:58:45+00:00

Because men that need reconstructive surgery presumably were born with a fully functional penis. They're still male, regardless.

Transmen aren't male, they are getting the same procedure but that's about where the similarity ends.

Also, the studies pull no punches and explain that the phallo will never be exactly the same as a regular penis. I'd gather that males that have had to have the surgery have a firm grasp on that compared to TRA who try to say that the phallo is exactly the same as a regular non surgical invention penis.

But TLDR transmen are female and not males like males that have had reconstructive surgery.

Yayme · 2020-07-19T23:00:55+00:00

My questions are, can you explain why a neopenis/phalloplasty is not a penis? Phalloplasty, which is the construction of a penis, was originally created for men that weren't even "trans", why weren't their neopenises as real as any other man's penis?

A man-made penis is not the same as a nature made penis. I would suspect that men, born as men, who needed a phalloplasty probably had some serious issues with it as well. I doubt they were like "oops, my dick got ripped off in a horse riding accident, but now I have the faux penis made out of arm skin, and it's literally the exact same thing, and I have zero mental issues or mental scars. I'm A-OK."

If the penis of a man that has erectile dysfunction and can not get hard on its own so it needs a device called a penile implant to make it go hard and can not release sperm is still a penis, then why is the neopenis which can not get hard on its own and needs a device called a penile implant to get hard and can not release sperm be a penis? Can you explain why?

Pretty much the same answer as above. You're talking about faux, or unusable penises. These are men who were in accidents, or men who have medical conditions. Medicine has looked for an answer to help them function as men, because they ARE men... but to act like it's the gold standard of a man is disingenuous. And I do feel bad for them, but it still doesn't change the fact that I am skeptical that they are going to through life with a non-functioning, faux penis and they have zero mental issues from that.

Men with micro-penises have serious mental issues from that too.

Basically what you're saying is, look at this group of men who were disfigured, or who have serious medical conditions. We still consider them men, so why don't we consider women who do this to themselves men as well. And honestly, at the end of the day, maybe these transmen are considered about the same class of men as the natal men who lost their penises in some freak accident.

And if a man is something with a penis, then imagine that a man removes all of his genitals in surgery, why will he still remain a man after surgery?

What do you mean by a "man?"

Do you mean these transmen should be housed in men's prisions if they commit a crime? Most of them don't really want that.

Do you mean they should be able to wear masculine clothes? They can.

Do you mean they should be able to compete in men's sports? They never seem to want to do that. Except the one wrestler Mack Beggs, who suddenly fell off the face of the Earth after highschool. I've been watching to see how well he competes against real men, but that doesn't seem like it's going to happen. That asshole ruining the wrestling experience for every woman in his district. Selfish cheater.

Or do you mean what I suspect you mean - which is that gay men should have sex with them.

I think most gay men are ALL about the penis. I would guess that even a natal man who had a faux penis that didn't function would have a hard time finding partners at a gay orgy.

So. To sum it up - Is it a penis? Again. A glass eye isn't an eye. Fake boobs, aren't the same either. A prosthetic leg isn't the same. Do they all function in a similar manner? Sure. But they're not the same as the natural thing they are made to mimic. I'll be honest, as a straight woman, I wouldn't want a fake penis made from leg skin that you have to pop up, or whatever. I just can't see it being sexy to look at, or interact with, or any of that stuff.

And I'm sorry if that's cold, but at least for me, it's honest. I'd stay WITH my husband if he lost his dick... but I doubt that I would have gotten with him in the first place if he had a faux dick.

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