all 12 comments

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Non-conforming women or women that were presenting themselves as men, were doing that in most cases (or maybe even always) only because women had no rights to work on those jobs, to study in universities, or to even publish their works. Especially in Europe and USA. Women had no rights to own a land as well. And some of claimed "transgenders", like James Barry (Marry-Ann Bulkley) would be put into prison for a life sentence if anyone would find that they are not a man and working as surgeon. And after her death, when people realized she is a woman - majority of positive changes in hospitals made by her were revoked, and her practice of caesarean section without killing mother was forgotten as well. So no wonder that she did not wanted that after death anyone would know that she was a woman. And similar to many other women, who were not rich or royal, - it was either be rightless, or present yourself as a man, or go into prison.

I am still can't believe that those people who are writing such articles are believing that women 200 years ago had same power, rights and privileges that white men have today in USA or Europe. This total ignorance of history is mind-blowing.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes it shows an extreme lack of regard for the context GNC women would operate under in these societies to reduce this to a lifestyle choice.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like there are major issues with females being labeled as trans because of sex-based oppression. There were so many incentives to try to pass for male because it was the only way to fully participate in society. It might be more reasonable for males who passed as females back then to be looked at as trans, but I don’t really know if that happened much or that those people would have been recorded by history.

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's fucking terrible. They're literally erasing gender nonconforming women from history. Any historical woman I might ever have looked up to as a role model, they're all being declared transgender because they chose to disguise themselves as men under patriarchy. Female soldiers, female doctors, female cowboys. This erases these women's bravery. It's saying they were masculine and lived in a male social role, so therefore they were not really women.

James Barry was a famous female doctor who they've claimed as trans. An author who wrote a novel about Barry acknowledging she was female was attacked and activists tried to get her book cancelled.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/15/the-pc-censor-target-a-lesbian-author

Then there's Jennie Hodgers, also known as Albert Cashier, a Civil War soldier. They are releasing a fucking picture book for tiny kids declaring that she was really a man.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It is very sexist as well, because it is saying "woman could not done something great, she most likely was a man/transman".

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. I don't know how they can't see that. They take every admirable, brave, masculine woman and declare her non-female. And then they have the nerve to claim they're the progressive, feminist ones.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is an excellent point. There is a tremendously ugly and misogynist element to saying that strong female role models are actually men quite apart from the historical inaccuracy of it.

[–]luckystar 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is important that we do not apply our modern biases onto historical people and events. We aren't even settled on a definition of "transgender" nowadays(do non binary people count? non dysphoric? cross dressers?), so that makes it even less salient to historical analysis. It makes everything even more complicated when talk about female historical figures when we consider that until very recently, women's participation in the public sphere was EXTREMELY limited, and there were obvious incentives to present oneself as a man that had nothing to do with one's own identity.

One of my favorite historical figures, Qiu Jin, who fought for the end of footbinding, published the first women's newspaper in China, and was an important figure in the Chinese revolution, also dressed/presented as a man often, and fled her arranged marriage. If Qiu Jin were alive today, would she identify as a trans man, gender queer, non binary? Personally, I highly doubt that. But either way, that's a question we can't answer because those terms did not exist in her time, and thus it wouldn't be appropriate to use those terms. She just as likely would have been a woman who doesn't even wear men's clothing if not out of necessity. She wrote poetry about women's liberation and obviously her pet issues (like ending footbinding and promoting women's literacy) were about women. Being GNC or presenting as a man, for women in history, was often a survival skill. It really tells us nothing about the "gender identity" of these historical women who did not have the luxury of thinking of "gender" in such terms.

I'm just thanking god that my favorite historical figures are generally not white so the TRAs don't know they exist and thus won't try to posthumously trans them.

[–]anfd 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think there's a simple answer to this. Offhand I'd say it hinges on what we take to be 1) the objective reality that exists irrespective of us (being aware of it), and 2) what we take to be the cultural, ideological etc. forms of how it get represented.

For example, take some law of physics. People who subscribe to modernism probably agree that it describes, or at least very closely approximates the objective reality in some crucial and relevant way. But it's still a cultural form of representing that reality. Without denying that reality or implying there's "other ways of knowing" or any other relativistic stuff, we can still think that, even in physics, there could well be other ways to approach the same thing, and maybe we don't know them all. Here's Max Tegemark, a professor of physics in MIT talking about it with theoretical physicist Sean Carroll:

"...you also take seriously the idea that the laws of physics might have more than one solution for what a uniform space can look like. We know that’s the case for water; it can be solid ice, or a liquid water, or steam. String theorists say the space we live in might be like that too, except there might be more than three ways… Maybe more than a googol ways it could be… This is a pretty general phenomena in physics. If you have some complicated equations, they can have multiple solutions." (Sean Carroll's Mindscape podcast).

(Just for the record, it's probably safe to say that most of what they're talking about goes way over my head, so I'm just trusting their authority.)

Of course, epistemology (what can we know, and how do we know it) and ontology (what is real, what exists) are ancient philosophical topics on which there is no agreement. One just has to take a look at the options and provisionally pick one that seems the most reasonable, and then adjust one's beliefs if there's need.

When people who I think are "extreme social constructionists" talk about stuff like homosexuality or heterosexuality, they might say that these things were invented in the 19th century. In some sense they would be right, but only to the extent that they're talking about the cultural representation of the objective biological reality of sexual reproduction and the "drives" that make animals (homo sapiens included) do it. Or, to repeat an example I've made earlier in another thread, like Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont wrote in their book Fashionable Nonsense about Bruno Latour's musings that pharaoh Ramses II couldn't have died of tuberculosis because the germ that causes tuberculosis was only discovered in the 19th century.

Things don't divide easily into obvious categories of objective reality, a cultural representation of objective reality (heterosexuality, sexual reproducion), or a cultural phenomenon that is part of social but not 'objective' reality in the sense that the latter would follow from the former (what it means to be a mother). That's why I think it's a legitimate discussion (if you have it in good faith etc. of course) whether or not "gender identity" in some loose sense (the awareness and experienced importance of one's sex and the cultural meanings attached to it) might be "transhistorical", in the same sense that heterosexuality is, even if these are relatively new concepts. (This is not to say anything about the conclusion of that discussion.) When you say,

I don't think we should label historical figures trans or non-binary when there is no way they could have thought of themselves in those terms.

I tend to agree, but I'd still say it depends. Some time ago I listened to an interview about a historian who had looked into the practice of spiritism in the early 20th century. Her approach as a historian was that she didn't want to look at the phenomenon from her personal vantage point in the present ("well of course it was obvious nonsense, and scam artists made good money off gullible people"), but from the point of the people who were involved in it, who were commenting on it etc. (some claimed it's real, others believed them, others weren't so sure).

I think it's a legitimate point of view, even though if I were a historian, I wouldn't use it. With all this relativistic "different ways of knowing" stuff being so popular as it is, I'd "virtue signal" by keeping a visible distance from it. But I still think it's a legitimate point of view, given that you're clear about what you're doing, and don't slip into de facto peddling superstitition etc.

When you write,

We can of course talk about GNC and third gender people but this should be done in a way that is cognizant and respectful to the cultural context they existed in which does not include twentieth-century psychological theories of gender identity.

I agree. Probably it's impossible to have conversations on Twitter about this, and indeed there "[it] is simply a propaganda device to establish a historical basis for trans ideology that doesn't actually exist", as you say.

And TRAs aren't the only ones to do it: nationalists of all kinds want to think of themselves are the heirs of some ancient civilization, socialists partly legitimate their political aims with primitive communism ("see, it's kind of been done before"), see antecedents to it in certain sections of Plato's Republic etc., and while I don't recall right now having come across any feminist texts doing this, I'm sure they've done it too.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

if I were a historian, I wouldn't use it

Technically historians are collecting facts, not saying their view of those facts. In reality instead of collections of facts we are getting biased views in every generation, so history slowly changing.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the interesting comment. I agree with you. It is possible to have a nuanced conversation about the manifestation of things like gender in ancient societies and I believe actual historians can do this without imposing modern concepts on to people and produce interesting work. It is simply the misuse of history to attempt to justify modern ideology that I object to.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As an under-statement, I'd call it historical colonialism... and that's the understatement aspect of it.