QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

I know QT believes that trans men are not simply gender nonconforming women. But I'm curious what they believe are the actual, material differences between the two groups.

These are some possible differences that came to mind:

Physical dysphoria. Some QT people believe that physical dysphoria is needed to be trans, but others say that a female-born person can be a man even with zero distress around bodily characteristics. That someone doesn't need to hate their breasts or vagina to be trans. However, many female people who do not transition and acknowledge themselves as women admit to having physical dysphoria, including genital dysphoria.

Social dysphoria. This is even less associated with trans men than physical dysphoria, because pretty much any gender nonconforming female person is going to experience a fair amount of social dysphoria. I personally have experienced severe dysphoria and distress around femininity nearly all of my life. A masculine woman generally adopts masculine presentation because she does not feel right or comfortable (to varying degrees) with visual cues signifying femininity and does not feel aligned with traditional female social or sexual roles.

Self ID. A trans man is a man because he says he is, because he chooses to be identified with men and explicitly denounces his female past and female body. But what makes him a man? Is it just that he chooses not to be a woman, as if it's a simple matter of choice? Is it that he doesn't feel like a woman? But then we get to the age-old argument of what it means to feel like a woman or live as a man? I consider that I "live as a man" as much as I'm able to in a female body. I don't feel like a woman. But I still don't call myself a man.

Medical transition. Some QT people like transmedicalists may say that someone is only a trans man if they pursue medical transition, such as testosterone or surgeries. That the difference between a trans man and a butch woman is the intent to transition and the willingness to carry it out. This would align most closely with my own views, although detransitioned women who have been though surgeries and hormones are still women. Identification still matters for this category as well.

The above questions are mostly for QT, but anyone can comment, of course.

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[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

The difference is ideological. I doubt there are any dysphoric, GNC lesbians who identify as "cis". They either end up being trans or a gender critical feminist.

This is why terms like "transphobia" & "cis privilege" mislead & erase the real prejudice, which is against "gender non-conformity".

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

which is against "gender non-conformity"

That is my main problem with non-binary people and genderqueer ideology in general.

They are cementing gender roles and gender stereotypes, and those must be intact to ideology to work at all. And it hurts me directly as very feminine gay male, who prefer wearing cloths like roman toga.

So gender non-confirming people who want to stay woman or man are hurt the most from this - like butch lesbians or feminine gays, or just regular GNC people. GNC person thinks "I am a man, but I like wearing dresses, so I will wear a dress as a man, so I will not comply to gender stereotype of a man", new wave gender ideology says "I am a man, but I like wearing dresses, and dresses are for women, I am complying to gender stereotype of man and woman, so this means I am either non-binary or transwoman, but not a man". It is goes against beliefs and problems of majority oldschool transsexuals I know as well, as their main idea was "I am not feeling good in this body, I am not feeling comfortable on how society thinks I am, so I must change my body to look like I want to look, so I can do what I want to do".

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True, and I feel like many GNC women start off accepting themselves as "cis," but a slow and consistent societal pressure leads to a breaking point where they either no longer consider themselves women or decide to throw gender out the window entirely.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I doubt there are any dysphoric, GNC lesbians who identify as "cis".

Check out Leoaica Motanelul on YouTube. Leigh is female, transitioned (on T), had top surgery to reach her goal of a boyish appearance, detransitioned (off T), now identifies as a woman, and is married to a woman. She describes being happy with her gender nonconforming appearance. I assume she was dysphoric beforehand. And she meets anyone's definition of a lesbian. I think Leigh ticks all of your boxes. Her story is fascinating and made me reassess some of my assumptions about gender. Very clear and thoughtful. Late 20s or 30-is, IIRC; not some teen trender. She was also interviewed by Benjamin A Boyce.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I'm familiar with her and think she's great, but I can't imagine she would ever refer to herself as "cis."

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

She is female and identifies as a woman, therefore is cis by definition. She might have used the term "cis" in one of her earlier detrans videos but I am not sure.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Cis" is a label imposed by those who believe in gender identity.

I am female and acknowledge myself as a woman, even though I do not identify with womanhood. I would not call myself "cis" simply because I state my biological sex. If anything, I'm exactly the opposite. I am not "on the same side" as the female gender. I hate everything associated with the female gender.

Now I'm not one of those who believes "cis" is a slur, but from my perspective it makes zero sense to call an extremely GNC woman "cis." I'm not sure about Leoaica, but I personally have rejected gender and go strictly by biological sex.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was referring to "cis" as the concept and neglected the connotation of adherence to gender theory. Sorry about that!

As far as I know, Leigh's views are currently close to your views: she seems to reject most ideas of gender as they might apply to her. She had an older video discussing cis women who have top surgery, so seems comfortable with the term, but I think you are right that she has never the term "cis" in reference to herself.

In my ontology, it makes perfect sense to describe a female who identifies as a woman as cis, even one such as Leigh who is extremely GNC including surgery and testosterone effects. My definition of trans is based solely on a mismatch between sex and gender identity, otherwise it would include many GNC people who are comfortable with their bodies and being perceived as their natal sex, such as crossdressers. "Gender diverse" includes all these people.

However, you raise an important point. There must be a third option between trans and cis: missing data, such as unknown, undecided, or withheld. I do not see how I can describe someone as cis or trans if they do not have a sense of their own gender. I have previously thought of these people as agender, but I am now not so sure.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Do we really need to do the whole "don't assign labels to other people" thing? If you have a citation of her saying she's cis, show it, but otherwise it's poor form to label someone like that.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Leigh describes herself as a "woman woman" and a "biological woman" and "female". How is this not exactly the same as cis? It would be poor form if I called her nonbinary some such, but cis woman is a synonym for these terms, is it not? Cis is defined as not trans. Or am I missing something?

[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Where did the term cis come from, though?

Groups can generally come up with labels for theirselves, but not labels for other people. No?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Oh, I see. You are objecting not to the concept, just to the label "cis". I see your point.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

FWIW she may well be 'cis' but unless she says as much, or you're in a trans-dominant space, you like probably shouldn't assume or call her that without checking - certainly if it is expected to use the preferred pronouns of someone even if they're not around and I don't believe they're the sex they think they are, no? (Also hi! I don't know your user name so I don't know your exact stances, but I'd be happy to hear them :) )

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Noted. I have previously assumed that "cis" was just a broad description but I guess it can be taken as an identity label and should be treated with more respect. I am already in trouble for referring to people by their biological sex. :-(

My stance is that I am broadly trans positive, but believe in immutable binary sex, and that trans people change only sex characteristics. While I support self ID for documents (or just omit gender markers), I think inclusion of trans women in women's sport should be evidence-based to ensure that it is safe and fair.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I checked some of her earlier detrans videos and she then did not identify with any gender.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You may add women affected by PCOS, and not just butch lesbians. As women affected by PCOS may have way too many testosterone (even have beards and stronger muscle built), be sterile and have no visible breasts. Majority of them are still saying they are woman and want to be a woman, but having very strong distress around the people's acceptance around. Women with heavy cases have super huge distress with their body and social expectance of womanhood, and almost always require treatment.

What is called "butch lesbian/woman" in Europe is regularly done here (post-USSR) by straight women, especially in age around 30-40 and then after 55+, especially among higher paid jobs or managing jobs. It is normal to woman to look masculine, with more manly cloths and to have very short haircut like such: https://i.imgur.com/mn0m8Pz.png or https://i.imgur.com/M0ppQjs.png

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's a good point. I didn't think about women with PCOS.

I think masculinity is more accepted in various cultures and also at various ages. In a society with low pressure to conform to femininity, especially pornified femininity, you'd see far fewer girls and women transitioning to male. Although other factors go into that as well.

By the way, your example pictures were interesting, but neither of those women strike me as particularly GNC, even with the short hair. If a young woman in Russia chooses to wear men's clothing exclusively and have a men's haircut, how is that generally received socially? I know there's a lot of homophobia still.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If a young woman in Russia chooses to wear men's clothing exclusively and have a men's haircut, how is that generally received socially?

I am not from Russia, but there it will be considered fine, in USSR there were women like that. There even popular movie, that "such women can be seen very manly and look manly, but in their heart they are still sensitive women", so many USSR and post-USSR people are perceiving them as feminine women, regardless of their looks. This is decently popular movie about female sailors: https://i.imgur.com/PMUQUW9.png. And this is one of the most popular soviet romantic comedy movie, about romance of those two: https://i.imgur.com/EaNdMmw.png - I would not call it "GNC" by current standarts, but it was decently GNC comparing to USA or Europe at the same time (1970s). She was wearing tuxedo-like cloths or pants in the first part of movie, but then started wearing dresses, when was trying to hit to this man, and they both were trying to make a look like they are not in love in each other, so their awkwardness is main focus of comedy there. And among "director" jobs, most of women were clothing like that - very officially, with very short haircuts. I am not sure why it was like that, and why they were wearing less classical feminine cloths, when were going to high ranks.

Here, in Ukraine, it is even better, as we have almost bald women walking around, because we have a lot of women in our army (and in general many military women), and many of them are completely shaving their heads if they are serving near hot spot.

I think masculinity is more accepted in various cultures and also at various ages.

A bit of repeating, but here, in post-USSR, it is common to women at age 30-40 and after 55+ to have very short "butch lesbian" or "manly" haircut, especially if they are working on a high-profile job. So if woman have short haircut and wearing "manly" costumes, it is seen as something usual, and not assumed she is a lesbian (unless her hair is dyed to pink or something) or trans. In general here gender stereotypes in part of clothing and looks are very blured. So it will be hard to transmen to look "manly", as there many women like that who are perfectly fine being woman and are still viewed as feminine women (so masculinity mainly seen only in how person is acting and what is doing, so if feminine looking woman will be swearing and agressive, she will be called masculine). Majority of transgenders here are HSTS, and recently trans lobby from USA got a bunch of money, and they are promoting trans ideology to parents as way to "fix gayness", so lobbyists are very homophobic here. My transsexual friends are all against that lobby too. Gladly it is not very strong yet, and people are more often more critical towards everything, as we here used to fight against propaganda, as one country nearby is all the time trying to promote their propaganda on people here. For men gender stereotypical closing is still not as much blured as for women, so it is easier for transwomen than to transmen, however, often here transwomen are still being seen just as gay men, as gedner stereotypes in clothing here is not as strict as on the West or in Asia.

Edit: added links and fixed formatting.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

My instinct would be dysphoria plus identity though at least intention of medical transition probably would fold in but I don’t want to speak for trans men.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you think that must include physical dysphoria, or would social be enough?

What if the person with dysphoria would like to medically transition, but is unable to because of circumstances? Do they still have a basis for claiming manhood?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Again I don’t want to speak for trans men.

To me if a physically dysphoric (male) wanted to transition but couldn’t Due to say medical contraindication for stroke risk, I would probably include them in trans women. I would tend to apply the same to trans men but I don’t Want to speak for a group im not part of.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Would you still consider them men, though, or just trans men?

If they can't have a male social experience or be taken for men by society, then society is going to treat them the same way they'd treat a gender nonconforming woman.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I consider trans men men. Whether society as a whole would or not. Only seems fair. I consider myself a women even though I don’t pass, it would be pretty inconsistent to not extend that to others.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, but you've taken steps to medically transition. If someone doesn't do that, how are they different from any other nonconforming member of their natal sex? They don't have either the biological or the social experience of the opposite sex.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It may just come down to me being sympathetic to medical circumstances that prevent transition honestly.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Makes sense. I can understand calling them trans in that case, but I don't see how they have a credible claim to actual manhood or womanhood.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Trans men have dysphoria (meaning discomfort with sex characteristics) so they transition. Also, trans men try to look more like men where butches try to look like masculine women.

Some trans men don't medically transition for a number of reasons. They can't afford it, or the side effects of testosterone are a few reasons.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So in your view, only physical dysphoria would count, not social?

Also, trans men try to look more like men where butches try to look like masculine women.

What is the difference? Visually speaking, a pre-everything trans man and a butch lesbian are indistinguishable.

Some trans men don't medically transition for a number of reasons.

Would you still consider them men if they do not have male bodies and due to lack of hormone use cannot be seen or treated as men by society?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is the difference? Visually speaking, a pre-everything trans man and a butch lesbian are indistinguishable.

Yea but a trans men may opt for more medical intervention to look more manly. Also, butches don't have beards.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

May, but according to most of QT, they don't necessarily have to. What if they're not on testosterone yet or don't even want to go on testosterone?

There's no visual difference between the two otherwise. Both butch women and trans men wear men's clothes and have men's haircuts.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes but a butch woman isn't willing to go past a certain extent. Butch women have shorter limits.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, some butch women do get mastectomies and go on low-dose T.

If the mark of being a trans man is willingness to go "all the way," what about those trans men who don't want to?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In my view, self ID, because gender identity, which is entirely subjective, is the only difference between a trans man and a cis woman. And note that I did not refer to butch because trans people can be GNC and trans men can present femme or masc; these are gender expression and not gender identity. Dysphoria/euphoria may not present or may be felt differently by different people; it is typically a symptom, but not a cause. Transition occurs to improve quality of life, typically to relieve dysphoria, but is not required. So we are left with gender identity, that is, one's innate sense of self in relation to our sexually dimorphic species and gendered society.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Self ID seems like such a flimsy thing to me. Like there are no requirements, no qualifications. I can start calling myself a man tomorrow, and all of a sudden I'm male and my boyfriend is gay based on my say so? It just doesn't make logical sense. I'd still be the exact same person I was the day before.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, sexual attraction based on the gender identity of others makes no sense to me. My experience is that my sexual attraction is based on the sex not the gender identity of the object of my desire. If you started identifying as a man tomorrow, you would still be female and retain your female sex characteristics, and your boyfriend would still be straight (assuming that he is cis, that is, male). I do not know how this changes for those who change sex characteristics; a cis man who loves a fully transitioned trans women also seems kinda straight to me, but what if the trans woman was pre-everything and still presenting masculine? I think we are attracted mainly to sex characteristics. Gender identity does not come into it.

Edit #1:

Identity may seem flimsy but it is the core of who we are as people. How would you interact with those around you if you saw yourself as a predator who used those around you as disposable resources? How would you interact with those around you if you saw yourself as a part of single super-organism in which all humans loved each other as ourselves because we are all part of an unbroken humanity? Identity gives us the "why" for many of our actions.

Edit #2 (I am enjoying this tangent):

And this is why I am adamantly opposed to identitarianism and wokeness: indoctrinating people that they have an identity that is being permanently oppressed fills the world with negativity and divides society. This is probably my main complaint with radical feminism, despite my support for second-wave feminist principles.