What does the failure of TRAs to change the Gender Recognition Act mean for the future of self-ID? Could things be changing?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from bbc.com

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People shouldn’t be allowed to lie on legal documents🤷‍♀️

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People don’t actually believe the gender identity ~wOmAn On InSiDe~ nonsense tra insists is super well accepted and scientifically valid.

There’s hope for women yet.

[–]divingrightintowork 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My fingers are crossed - lawyers are also trying to snap up teenage detransitioners in the UK - which has implications for the much more lawsuit happy US.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It hasn't trickled over to the USA yet, but it will. A lot of people here will have even better cases, considering the fact that many were minors and they've been doing irreversible medical things to children as young as 8.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I sincerely hope so. But I'm not sure. California's governor apparently just signed a new law allowing self ID in prisons regardless of whether the people involved have had hormone treatment or surgeries. Natal males with intact, functioning penises are going to be allowed in general population in women's prisons. And also the converse, natal females with breasts and vaginas will be allowed into men's prisons. I guess it's only a matter of time before enough terrible things happen for the lawsuits to begin.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s going to be a disaster. And people are already upset about it and saying this is too much. I really truly hope this is the beginning of people listening to what feminists (real ones who focus their feminism on females) are saying. I hope it opens people’s eyes and leads to them informing themselves and listening to people who’ve been speaking up this whole time. The only thing is, I hope this happens just from the law itself, and not after women get hurt (in either male or female prisons). This is such an unfair and dangerous law for females.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Agreed, and it's not like trans women don't deserve safe spaces. They absolutely do. The governor should have signed a law requiring prisons to have safe wings or protected units for them. But self ID is not the way to go.

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These policies are so horrible (we have the same in Canada and it has led to awful abuses of women prisoners that the media never talks about). Self-ID in prisons makes me sick to my stomach. Hopefully, other jurisdictions will start following the UK's more sensible lead on this.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I saw the California law and it is extremely worrying. California already had self-ID for changing gender markers, so I guess it not that surprising, but it’s putting women at risk. Even if you think some group of males should be housed in women’s prisons, insisting on surgery seems like an absolute minimum standard for safety.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree. My other thing is- maybe they should be focused on preventing the violence and rape happening in male prisons period??? There’s still millions of males at risk of /being assaulted (both physically and sexually) in male prisons that aren’t being protected. Why is nothing being done about that? And what’s stopping them from “identifying as a woman” to protect themselves (in addition to males who may do it because the option is available)? It’s like it puts women at risk and ignores the other males who may be at risk unless they lie and self id their way to safety. But “at least the transwomen are safe, I guess” must be their thinking.

Eta- as much as I hate to admit it, I wouldn’t blame someone being abused in a male prison self Id-ing their way to a safer prison. This is kind of what the problem will be for female prisons. Just because they were victims in a male setting doesn’t mean they won’t be perpetrators in a female setting. Not to mention the possible and likely consensual sex... this is just a colossal mistake.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not to mention the possible and likely consensual sex

And what about pregnancy? Mixing males and females together is going to cause a lot of unintended pregnancy. That would be a huge financial burden on the prison system, and then what happens to the babies if they're conceived in prison and both parents are incarcerated long term?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s just gonna be lawsuit after lawsuit. It’s such a liability. It’s a mistake. All I can do is hope that the mistake is realized (sooner rather than later, hopefully) and this turns a tide or something.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's terrible to say, but I feel like rape is more easily ignored. Pregnancy, though, that's tangible evidence of sex (which isn't supposed to be happening in prison) plus a financial burden on the system in terms of abortion, adoption, prenatal care, and figuring out what the hell to do with dozens or possibly hundreds of unplanned babies.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s kind of infuriating that in all of these situations, rape is ignored unless it’s a transwoman. The other males getting raped don’t get protected, the women at risk have no say and no one looking out for them, but the transwomen are covered? To be clear, it’s not at all bad that there are steps being taken to protect them (aside from the fact that these are the worst possible steps to take), but I don’t understand how there’s nothing being done for anyone else at risk of assault? I don’t understand how males make the decision to let males into female spaces. And as far as pregnancy goes- lol it’s not like they’re gonna offer condoms or birth control so seriously what the fuck are they thinking? They can’t prevent sex in prison any better than they can prevent rapes, apparently. And if they came up with a system to prevent sex- why wouldn’t they prevent the dangers the transwomen are facing in male prisons and keep them there? This is yet again, not even really about safety. This is about their “identities”. Once again, women get screwed over to preserve gender identity.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You’re right! There isn’t really an advocacy group that cares about male prison rape that I know of (at least that you hear of much). It should be a priority, but I feel like most people just forget about our incarcerated population often times.

I worry that California is making it where there is an incentive to identify as a woman to be moved to safer conditions. I feel like we already saw this in the U.K. where the populations of trans inmates grew a lot after you could get transferred to a female prison because of it. Making the male prisons less awful would help with this too.

The fact this is including people who are capable of impregnating female inmates should be like a giant red flag. I feel like a lot of people will peak when they starting hearing stories about that, because it makes it so clear what is happening. I feel awful for the female inmates.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S,M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Welcome to GCDebatesQT! I removed your comment because TIF and TIM are not allowed in this space (see the sidebar rules). There are other allowed terms you can replace them with.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I’m cautiously optimistic that maybe self-ID will be less readily accepted in the future. We owe so much the women who organized against this. At the very least, I feel like there is an organized opposition now that will be able to push back.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

    Governments not helping trans people isn’t a change.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    I guess I meant more around attitudes towards self-ID. It just seemed like a few years ago there was little real questioning of it.

    I’m not so sure that demedicalizing transition and allowing “sex changes” purely through self identification helps trans people.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Complicating ID changes certainly doesn’t help.

    Ultimately I’m a transmedicalist but it’s not a deviation for trans people to not be helped by attempted government action. I don’t know where you are from but I’m from the US. We got employment protections THIS YEAR and it was from the Supreme Court expanding old legal holdings rather than through specific rights being passed by the legislature.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    I’m in the US too. I guess I attribute that courts had to rule on employment protections to just how dysfunctional our political system is on basically everything than like a lack of caring about trans people. I feel like we can’t pass rights legislation even on things that shouldn’t be controversial anymore.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Sadly true. That’s why there’s so much stress about the 6-3 conservative majority swinging in. Roes in the crosshairs and the nominee wants another shot to counter obergfell. She’s also pretty openly anti trans so... pretty terrifying without a major shift in Congress at minimum.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    100%

    It’s a truly frightening situation for so many important issues.

    [–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    I don't know how much the costs were slashed. If it was significant, so that it's affordable for young people, then Its something. But somehow I doubt it. Changing a document shouldn't cost 2k or more.

    [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    The article says the cost was previously £140, but is being reduced. Where are you getting 2k from?

    [–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    That's actually Suprisingly low. I must have missed that part.

    2k is what it is in my country to get stuff changed.