all 34 comments

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'd ask more questions, like some cultures and countries in the current (and some in the past) are considering "feminine" looks and traits of the West as masculine traits. So men in dresses and make-up there is common thing, while women can be banned from using them (in some Indian communities and muslim countries, and previously in most of Europe for aristocracy only). So if non-binary or not-very passing transwoman will get to that culture or country, they will be seen as regular men, as they are looking like men there - every man wear similar cloths and it counted there as "manly". So will transwoman there will need to remove all make-up and dress to be "more masculine" by western standarts to be more "feminine" by standarts of that culture?

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good question. I can't speak for QT but generally speaking I'd expect a person to conform to the cultural practices of the place they reside in.

What I'm wondering is would the trans person insist that "transmen/women are men/women" even if the culture sees trans people differently? Or do they accept that within the culture, they are not seen as men/women?

[–]grixitperson 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nothing can "align with my idea of gender" because i don't have one. I do have an understanding of sex, which aligns perfectly well with the rest of the world.

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I guess this question is more geared towards QT and those with strongly held beliefs about gender. Those who don't subscribe to gender will probably find this question pretty boring lol.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or maybe it's our culture that can learn from theirs for once. Also, there are trans-women in our culture that say that trans-women are men. So the "trans-women are women" brigade is even more insular than they realise.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (18 children)

1) It’s not up to me to try to define what other cultures see of gender or what people there say. But I expect the same. If someone considers themself kathoeu or Hijra and not a woman, that’s their experience and I don’t begrudge it. But I don’t want them telling me I am one of those things and not a woman. It’s not about telling anyone else who they are.

2) Non-binary identities aren’t only in western cultures. Look at the Hijra for instance. Regardless the answer is the same. It’s not anyone else’s place to tell someone else who they are.

[–]FlanJam[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It’s not anyone else’s place to tell someone else who they are.

Ahh ok, that's fair. There's more I could ask but I don't wanna seem like I'm grilling you lol. But I will push back on the idea of Hijra being the same as nonbinary. I'm not an expert, and they may have similarities, but I don't think its entirely accurate to call them the same thing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s a type of non-binary I think. They are neither men nor women so they fall under the broad category by my reckoning. But if one of them disagrees I would defer to them on their own identities.

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough. I still somewhat disagree, but we can agree to disagree on that point.

[–]penelopekitty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are recognized as men who present with feminine stereotypes. There is a place carved out for them in Indian society, although it is not a high status position. Under no circumstances are these men thought of as women or anything like the western made up concept of nonbinary.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

If you are demanding that a culture or person see you and treat you the way that you want, you are defining how they should see or talk about gender. The notion that a person can freely choose what gender they are is fundamentally rooted in your own conception of gender that you are forcing onto someone by demanding that they treat you and speak of you as the gender that you insist (from your own limited POV) you are.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I don’t think we can choose our gender.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Some people disagree. What do you do then? Do you invalidate the way they view gender? Why do your ideas on gender trump everyone else's? Why can people not question your gender if that is a part of their culture, or if your notions on gender go contrary to their culture? What happens when it's a part of someone's culture and personal worldview to not see gender the way you do? Are they forced to pretend they agree with your ideas? Are they forced to keep their disagreement to themselves?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Their beliefs about gender control their gender mine controls mine. If they want to say I’m not who I am, I’ll consider them rude. If they believe something about me but don’t voice it, it’s none of my business.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But your notion that gender means whatever you want is not consistent with most cultures, or most people's ideas on gender. You can either accept that your own personal beliefs about gender are invalid in their eyes, which means you will also accept the view of you that is in line with their beliefs, or you can disagree and make them treat you in line with your own views, which is inconsistent with "everyone's opinion is equally valid". You cannot have both, just as I cannot tell a white supremacist that they can continue being racist as long as they don't see black people as inferior, or tell a scientist they can keep advocating evolution as long as they advocate Creationism as equally valid. When you silence a person and make them accept only your own view as the proper one, or make them for all intents and purposes pretend that your view is the only one while mercifully letting them have a view that disagrees as long as they don't voice it, that does not count as accepting all views equally, not by a long shot.

How can you say you aren't pushing beliefs onto people if you consider it bad to voice their belief and expect them to agree with your idea on gender (or have to pretend that they do) in order to be valid? You can share your beliefs on gender freely and they have to pretend that they believe it out of politeness, while they themselves can't even state what they think? The idea that gender mustn't be questioned and that doing so is an attack IS your belief and silencing someone unless they share your views means you do not accept their view on gender.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

But your notion that gender means whatever you want is not consistent with most cultures, or most people's ideas on gender.

Citation needed. Trans people are present worldwide and in most places have more protections that we do in the US.

How can you say you aren't pushing beliefs onto people if you consider it bad to voice their belief and expect them to agree with your idea on gender

They don’t have to agree with me. I expect them not to interfere with my life and not harass me. I do the same. When I get misgendered at work, I just ignore it unless it is harassment level or from a boss. I’m not giving lectures in the workplace, they shouldn’t either.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Citation needed.

Are you actually going to argue that the world at large believes that men and women are a fictional thing that's just a matter of what pronoun you decide to use? Why is there a push for trans rights then? How can you claim victimisation and oppression and at the same time insist that everyone is already on your side? As a feminist, I cannot imagine fighting the patriarchy while at the same time claiming that everyone understands women are equal and there is no problem. Why do trans activists keep doing this?

They don’t have to agree with me.

And yet you expect them to see trans people as whatever trans people say, or else they're being rude and should not state their views. Is "They don't have to agree, they should just be obliged to pretend that they agree to make me feel better, while I don't have to do the same" supposed to be an improvement?

I expect them not to interfere with my life and not harass me.

By labelling a lack of belief in your notion of gender as harassment and demanding their silence unless they (pretend to) agree with you, you are pushing your beliefs. Again, you cannot claim to be tolerant of all the views when your view takes precedent and has to be respected, and all the other views are silenced for being offensive. I am a feminist, and I oppose patriarchal ideology because it goes against human rights. I don't pretend that the patriarchy is okay and valid and it's all fine as long as it's silenced and doesn't hate women, I consider it wrong because it's damaging to society and human rights.

I’m not giving lectures in the workplace, they shouldn’t either.

And yet people can get fired for not pandering to trans people and telling them what they want to hear. If this was just a bunch of people asking others to call them whatever comes to their mind, we wouldn't be having these issues. Instead, the mere refusal to believe in this specific damaging notion of gender is labelled harassment. Do you see an issue with that?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And yet people can get fired for not pandering to trans people and telling them what they want to hear.

And I could just as easily be fired for arguing for trans rights. Leave me alone if you don’t like trans people and I’ll stay clear as I can. That society. Just letting people harass us with no recourse isn’t parity.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You keep avoiding addressing any points that stomp on what you have said. Does that mean you understand you were wrong?

And I could just as easily be fired for arguing for trans rights.

I thought everyone was on your side. Why would you be fired for arguing something everyone agrees with?

Leave me alone if you don’t like trans people and I’ll stay clear as I can.

Except I need to pretend men are women and their misogyny counts as female behaviour, or I get fired. No, sorry, that does not count as staying away. Stop faking this "Let's all get along and agree to disagree" act while rolling along with punishments for anyone who doesn't take your opinion as fact.

Just letting people harass us with no recourse isn’t parity.

People not believing in misogynistic ideologies is not harassment. If you believe it is, you are free to argue why (which I'm sure will just come down to the thought-stopping "I'll feel bad so you better do what I say" and "I identify as a racist", but hey, it's worth a shot). But don't fake some idea of tolerance when you are very much clear on what the "wrong" ideology is and support silencing and punishing it.

[–]divingrightintowork 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There's a lot of colonialism going on with gender ideology -like historically hijira never considered their selves women before, but westerners are coming in and telling them that they're women and they need to demand rights as women - they're using them the same way they used intersex - they'll headline an article with them, then barely talk about them, mostly talk about their agenda.

[–]FlanJam[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've seen many times when gnc/tomboy east asian women are labeled "nonbinary" or "genderfluid" for dressing androgynous. Its really annoying because most of the time they're not nonbinary, they're just women. In fact, I know korean feminists in particular are fighting hard to give women the freedom to dress however they wish. So its pretty tone-deaf to tell them "hey, if you dress this way you're not really a woman, you're nonbinary".

[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's awful - but yeah colonialism like whoa.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Other cultures do their thing. There is nothing inherently bad about that. But that culture would face the same problem that western societies face. I'm a woman. Not a third gender created for me by someone else. So if someone from that culture would label me kathoey then I'm sorry but they are wrong. And id probably tell them that. If someone else is fine with that, then great but I'm not.

Its similar with nbys. If you call a female nby a woman because that's what culture assigns based on their appearance, then you're wrong.

Gender is, and that much GC and I agree, always an issue as soon as it's assigned.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Behavioural patterns are socialisation-congruent & socialisation is sex-congruent. Sex is a catalyst, gendered socialisation is the cause & gendered behavioural patterns are the effect.

Catalyst: Infant is born who is unambiguously male

Cause: Parents, knowing the sex of their child & living in a gendered culture, treat it differently than they would a female infant, e.g. they overestimate its abilities & give it attention when it whines or grunts & play rougher with it etc.

Effect: The male sex outnumbers the female sex in media, high positions & crime, likewise trans-women outnumber trans-men & non-binary people (80% of whom are members of the female sex) in media, high positions & crime.

After we are assigned a gender, we are conditioned accordingly. Transitioning, presently, doesn't appear to be able to undo the gendered conditioning we received between the ages of 0-5.

"It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness" – Karl Marx

Basically the same thing Simone de Beauvoir was talking about when she said "one is not born, but rather becomes a woman":

"that formula (One is not born but made a woman) is the basis of all my theories & it's meaning is very simple: that being a woman is not a natural fact. It's a result of a certain history. There is no biological or psychological destiny that defines a woman as such. She is the product of a history, of civilisation, first of all, which has resulted in her current status. And secondary for each individual woman of her personal history in particular, that of her childhood. This determines her as a woman, creates in her something which is not at all innate, or an essence, something which has been called the "eternal feminine", or femininity. The more we study the psychology of children the deeper we delve, the more evident it becomes that baby girls are manufactured to become women. Long before a child is conscious, the way it is breastfed, or held, or rocked etc. inscribes in its body what might later appear a destiny." – Simone de Beauvoir

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you call a female nby a woman because that's what culture assigns based on their appearance, then you're wrong.

Wrong based on what?

[–]FlanJam[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Its similar with nbys. If you call a female nby a woman because that's what culture assigns based on their appearance, then you're wrong.

I see what you're saying, but I feel like it can get a little tricker than that depending on the context.

If it were a one-on-one scenario, for example: a nonbinary person chatting with someone of a different culture, then I'd agree they both have to respect each other's cultural perspectives. The nonbinary person's gender should be respected in that case.

But let's say the nonbinary person is visiting another country. While they're there, everyone refers to them as a woman and with feminine gendered language. A handful of people might recognize the nonbinary person is a foreigner with a foreign concept of gender, but most will probably just call the nobinary person a woman. In that scenario, is everybody in that culture wrong for doing so?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't belive in objective morality. The question basically comes down to how much a culture has to respect someone who is visiting it.but honestly the rule of thump for these cases is simple.

The culture should try to ease a foreigner inside of the culture where possible, but respect their boundaries when told. Let's assume a group of Japanese ambassadors visited France during the end of Japanese isolation. While France should show them the way around, help them to fit in where possible and ask them to respect their norms the same goes the other way around. They should not ask these samurai to part with their swords during the visit for example, since these are personal symbols whose significance the French just can not understand.

[–]FlanJam[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Okay, I see. I think I generally agree with that. But idk how practical that would be in the nonbinary example, because nonbinary isn't a well known concept. Even in the west its not ubiquitous. So they kinda have to expect that people in another culture will refer to them as a man/woman at times. And they're not meaning to be nonbinary-phobic or anything, its just a difference in cultural perspective.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure. I think it falls on the nby to be both lenient and open about their identity and on the other culture to be open about it. Running around people who never heard it l to understand the concept would just be frustrating

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

1.Every culture have some sort of idea what is a man or a woman, if someone argues "X culture AND Y culture believe in the third gender and therefore, there IS or MUST exist a third gender.", argue back by asking about the inherit flaw of those two cultures and if THEY THINK that makes those the cultures right? They're trying to use old cultures as some authority on subjects because they're simply old and they're trying to use the existence of the concept of "differing cultures coming across the same concept therefore, said concept exists" as an argument, ignoring the blatant fact that no ideas are as unique as they seem. To make an analogy: Humans in different lands have figured out how to make a net using by drying and weaving fibrous plants from their respective environments, so they're going to differ slightly in uses (e.g. catching fish, catching land animals), but at the very basic of the concept of a catching/trapping equipment woven from fibrous plant material, they are still all "nets.”

2. Different cultures make things up all of the time, it still doesn't change statistics (e.g. domestic violence, employment), until morons decide to group transwomen into statistics concerning the victimisation of women. Example of dialogue:

Trans: Indians believe in a third gender and they call them "hijra" and Native Americans have something called "2 spirit", therefore there is a third gender!"

Me: India also have hundreds of gods, believe that women should stay in the kitchen and I'm really a rabbit, trapped in a spirit of a tiger who secretly wants to be a goat, trapped in the human body, so I have three spirits (human, tiger, rabbit) because I know I could never be a goat so that makes me a three spirit. What's the difference between my belief and theirs? Just remember that 99% of the human race have either XX or XY chromosomes, have a standard structure of a reproductive system, the question is, how much should we kowtow to the ideology and WHY should we?

Anyway the problem is the subject on gender is so diverse that's hard to nail down a proper argument on the spot. Consider, are they arguing using science, culture, psychological (maybe a few other things)? Find a solid foundation in some of those areas. Here’s a few examples:

Culture: People make things up all of the time and create an effective systems to stabilise their own society, gender comes into play when it comes to how one contributes to their own society (e.g.who fights in war, how we raise our kids in relation to how society treats them).

To clarify my example "how we raise our kids in relation to how society treats them", in some countries having a vagina or a phallus determines your role and expectations in their society, parents in those societies have to raise their children in those roles to maximise their survival rate in their society (e.g. telling girls to cover their skin for whatever reason related to safety and religion).

Psychological: Some people have anxiety, some people have depression, others have schizophrenia, but we don't try to validate their image of themselves or their self worth, we try to support them in a way that helps them. They think they're born in the wrong body and are happy being the opposite sex and are not satisfied with simply looking like the opposite sex and it seems a lot of the outspoken groups of society are happy to concede with their delusion spawned from their insecurity (probably caused by their environment making them focus on gender and actually putting in a “psychological reward” if they come out as some sort of minority or maybe they just really like).

Science: None of the research is conclusive and some of them are worded in a way as if there is an actual “male brain” and “female brain”, based off the research I’ve read, there’s a brain structure that is shown typically in females and another brain structure shown typically in males (key word “typically”), it just means the subjects of the test use those specific areas of the brain a lot more and their brain structure could be like that for various reasons (maybe the trans subjects were just actively encouraged to participate in activities which use those areas of their brain? Maybe they were just born with it?), it doesn’t mean they were born in the wrong body. Also most research samples which I’ve seen written is pretty small, involve only adults and does not factor in the subjects development of the brain from age 0 to the time they conduct their brain scans, which is important because research also shows that the human brain is continuously changing as the person experiences different things.

Sociology: There are intersex people who have both female and male reproductive organs (whether both sets of organs work or not or are probably developed would be related to a different conversation) or have and extra X-chromosome and because of this, people think that it means there’s something “inbetween” when it comes to gender identity and therefore there needs to be a special way to address intersex people and use this in their arguments about the legitimacy of being trans, however people don’t seem to realise to facilitate effective communication, a parent just decide to use the standard “he” or “she” for their kid, because they can only see what is external of the child and not much is known about their anatomy until they hit puberty. However does this mean intersex people are trans? No because “trans” means “transitioning” ,does this mean gender identity is a real thing? No, because it’s really a generalised descriptor of what we based off what we are in relation to people around us, we’re all just people with feminine or masculine characteristics/behaviours that doesn’t really determine what sex we are.

I personally think people should be addressed based off their phenotype (physical characteristics which they’re born with) as we can’t simply going around asking what their pronouns are or look for pronoun badges when we’re trying to figure out how to save their lives in the ICU (and people in general should not be ticked off when they’re being misgendered and if they look like another gender). We’re all programmed to address each other by specific pronouns by how we look at the person. (Yeah I’m saying this even though it’s not relevant because there have been cases where stupid teenage girls acting shy talking about their period pain to busy doctors when they’re calling themselves “male”).

Edit: On second thought, addressing people by their chromosomes would be better, anyone with only Xs are female and anyone with a Y is a male.